Has Disney Pricing Increases/Atmosphere Cuts Altered YOUR FAMILIES WDW Attendance?

[pax_65]

losing park hours is someone's subjective opinion of value to that person.

Well, I guess if you enjoy calling it an early night and catching up on sleep, then maybe you'd find value in a 6pm MK close.

Like I said, my family really enjoys the late nights in the MK. So we have the choice to pay extra to attempt to duplicate the experience we've had in the past, go and have less of an experience than we've had in the past, or just not go. We've decided to go less often, and we try to carefully choose times when parties and after-hours upcharge events are less frequent. It's becoming more and more difficult to do.

 

[21stamps]

Well, I guess if you enjoy calling it an early night and catching up on sleep, then maybe you'd find value in a 6pm MK close.

Like I said, my family really enjoys the late nights in the MK. So we have the choice to pay extra to attempt to duplicate the experience we've had in the past, go and have less of an experience than we've had in the past, or just not go. We've decided to go less often, and we try to carefully choose times when parties and after-hours upcharge events are less frequent. It's becoming more and more difficult to do.

The problem with this, is that you’re acting like you don’t have other choices when MK closes at 6. There’s 3 other parks, mini golf, pools at the resorts, restaurants, movies on the beach, game rooms, ping pong tables, roasting marshmallows, the boardwalk, Disney Springs, etc etc etc etc.

IF you go to Disney World and plan on doing every single evening at MK, then yeah, it’s a disappointment. Realistically though, how many people actually do that?

 

[21stamps]

A few of my Top 10 Disney World Moments-

1. Spending the day at the pool while watching the OSU v Michigan game, eating, drinking, cheering, laughing.

2. Ordering pizza and watching OSU in our room during an evening blackout game. Walking out to the balcony to watch the Electrical Water Parade and MK fireworks.

3. Ordering room service for breakfast and eating near the balcony door, watching MK wake up.

4. Playing foosball with my kid and then jumping in the pool, with the monorail going by in the background.

5. Riding bikes around Ft Wilderness.

6. Renting a boat and driving around Seven Seas Lagoon and Bay Lake.


Disney World is so much more than the parks. If people think there’s nothing to do when MK closes at 6 to the public, then I STRONGLY urge you to check out https://disneyworld.disney.go.com You may be surprised at your options.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

Well, I guess if you enjoy calling it an early night and catching up on sleep, then maybe you'd find value in a 6pm MK close.

Like I said, my family really enjoys the late nights in the MK. So we have the choice to pay extra to attempt to duplicate the experience we've had in the past, go and have less of an experience than we've had in the past, or just not go. We've decided to go less often, and we try to carefully choose times when parties and after-hours upcharge events are less frequent. It's becoming more and more difficult to do.

We're rope drop or early magic hour people. I get up at 4:30am for work every day, and it seems we can't sleep much past 5:30 or 6 on vacation, so we just get up and go early. But again, there were still 5 nights during our trip that we could have stayed to close at MK. We just choose to do other things most nights. Yup, I know, personal preference. Lot's of others are like you, and prefer to stay late. For whatever reason, Disney has chosen to go the other way, and have earlier hours, instead of the late hours.

 

[Lilofan]

We're rope drop or early magic hour people. I get up at 4:30am for work every day, and it seems we can't sleep much past 5:30 or 6 on vacation, so we just get up and go early. But again, there were still 5 nights during our trip that we could have stayed to close at MK. We just choose to do other things most nights. Yup, I know, personal preference. Lot's of others are like you, and prefer to stay late. For whatever reason, Disney has chosen to go the other way, and have earlier hours, instead of the late hours.

Knew a guy who worked summers at Disney. He said many of his co workers wanted to work mornings and afternoons and very few staff wanted to work into the late evening.

 

[pax_65]

I could have a great time in Disney without ever stepping foot in a park. This is not the point.

My point is that the value of your theme park admission pass has declined significantly in the past 10 years or so. This is primarily due to the reduced theme park hours and less EMHs. Secondarily: the loss of some live entertainment, no MK evening parade, reduced staffing and FP+ issues that result in more time spent in lines (which means you can't do as many attractions as you used to do) and various little extras that Disney used to do.

I used to defend Disney, saying that while it's not a cheap vacation, Disney works hard to help you get good value. We took full advantage, spending LOTS of time in the parks (and some time by the pool too). In a 7-10 day vacation we did everything we wanted to do - and then some.

These days I feel like Disney is still a good, unique experience (I don't bother comparing it to Universal or Six Flags or anything like that). But unfortunately the value isn't what it used to be - and when we look at what we spend vs what we get, it makes us question the whole thing. So we've gone from 2-3 trips a year down to 1 trip every other year.

 

[Vacationeer]

I'll agree to that, but losing park hours is someone's subjective opinion of value to that person.

Objectively less hours=less value; costs more per hour; hours lost equals less rides/experience.
And less hours to spread people out on the rides creates longer lines so guests end up experiencing even less.

On a 9a-6p MK day, most people are staying and going full force the whole day. On an 8a-11p day many people come late, take a break or leave early. On a short day most people try to get every hour.

 

[Vacationeer]

The good about the short day is that so many people see it as a bad value so that helps keep attendance lower, which in turn makes the surrounding full days extra crowded because people don't want to lose the value of their ticket going on a reduced hours day.

 

[pax_65]

The good about the short day is that so many people see it as a bad value so that helps keep attendance lower, which in turn makes the surrounding full days extra crowded because people don't want to lose the value of their ticket going on a reduced hours day.

Exactly right. When the MK is only open late once or twice a week, those nights are often PACKED.

 

[Vacationeer]

Exactly right. When the MK is only open late once or twice a week, those nights are often PACKED.

And those fireworks crowds will be crazy because those are the only nights offered.

 

[Vacationeer]

We're going for 5 days in Dec. Only 2 days are full MK days, one has nite EMH and the other is Sat. Looks like they both will be insane crowds. I'd rather squeeze lemons in my eyes than go to MK that Sat, so looks like we'll enjoy the crazy fireworks crowd with EMH

 

[Phonedave]

I'm sorry, but, having attended since 1983 I can tell you, without hesitation, that the place looks 100% better then it did back then and it looked good back then. You don't stop and study forced perspective, it is a situation where your mind is being tricked and it does that if you are walking or standing still, plus the "running into" will not happen if you look behind you before you stop in the middle of the street. That is an example of the current attitude in this country, everyone else is wrong no matter what.

I just left there last Wednesday and I was using a scooter. If I hadn't been extremely alert while I was using it I would have run into and been blamed for hitting hundreds of people all of whom didn't look and just stepped out in front of me. Even when they did look they just kept on moving because, hey, they spent a lot to be there and they weren't going to be a courteous human being and let anyone go ahead of them. Good thing for them that I was a courteous human and stopped or took evasive action to avoid them.

Opinions will be what they are, but I have attended regularly since around 1998 (as well as not so regularly before then) and no, it is not 100% better. It is worse. i guess we will just have to disagree with that. No, most people don't "study" forced perspective, but to use your words you bemoan the people who "live their lives as a marathon and never stop to smell the roses ". To enjoy the effect it helps to stop. Regardless, who are you to dictate how I happen to enjoy the park? As somebody with a civil engineering background, as well as a smattering of architecture, urban planning, and graphic design, I DO study the perspective in WDW (and other places) thank you very much.

As far as getting run into is concerned, where did I ever say I stopped dead in the middle of the street. In fact you just pretty much proved my point in your commentary. To quote "If I hadn't been extremely alert while I was using it I would have run into and been blamed for hitting hundreds of people all of whom didn't look and just stepped out in front of me" Those same people who don't look where they are going and walk in front of you, also walk INTO me when I am standing still, off to the side, out of the way of the normal traffic flow. I have been plowed into by people while waiting in a line at a kiosk. A lot of people either have their head in their phone, or are staring who knows where.

 

[Vacationeer]

When we were growing up we'd hear "Look where you're going" all day long whether it was directed at us or other kids nearby.

We were trained well to Look Where We Were Going!

 

[BraveGirl]

Every time I think Disney charges too much, I go to another theme park (like Six Flags or Sesame Place) and then vow to pay any amount of money Disney will charge me and never go anywhere else again.

Yes, I wish it was still as affordable as it used to be, but I am still willing to pay because the experience is so vastly better than anywhere else.

 

[VaderTron]

While there has seemed to be a movement growing, at least online in forums, FB groups, Reddit, etc, which involves people reducing/eliminating WDW vacations going forward, I think it is going to take alot more committed actions to change the cost/value trend by Disney in the Disney theme parks. I believe it would need to be a significant, sustained, multi-year drop in attendance/gate revenues/resort revenues before Disney starts to realize that their pockets aren't as full as they were before. If everyone that is reducing their Disney trips cut them out entirely, I think that would be the first step towards this situation playing out. Keep in mind, I am not someone who no longer sees value in a trip to WDW, at least not at this point, but, if that point ever comes, then I would be done until the cost structure improved.

While i see your point, remember that large numbers of people plan their trips to WDW months if not years in advance. The majority of the people who are there right now had this planned early 2019 if not 2018. The most recent changes and price hikes (and there are a lot of them since summer 2018 to present) will be affecting attendance sometime within 2020. There will be some short-term changes as well, but most won't be noticed till next year. Reasons:

1) Already mentioned that many plan months if not years ahead for WDW trips.

2) Passholders may have several months left on their pass that they do not plan on renewing. One of our friends says hers expires in Oct another said hers expires in December. Both said they are not renewing.

 

[Raineman]

While i see your point, remember that large numbers of people plan their trips to WDW months if not years in advance. The majority of the people who are there right now had this planned early 2019 if not 2018. The most recent changes and price hikes (and there are a lot of them since summer 2018 to present) will be affecting attendance sometime within 2020. There will be some short-term changes as well, but most won't be noticed till next year. Reasons:

1) Already mentioned that many plan months if not years ahead for WDW trips.

2) Passholders may have several months left on their pass that they do not plan on renewing. One of our friends says hers expires in Oct another said hers expires in December. Both said they are not renewing.

Good point. I think the only factor that may contribute to an attendance drop before 2020-2021 would be people cancelling their trips early that they have already at least partially paid for. The agency we book our WDW trips with has informed us that the $250 deposit we put down when we book is non-refundable-anything paid more than that, up until I believe 30 days before check-in, will be refunded upon cancellation. Not sure if that is our agent's policy, or a WDW policy. There's probably not going to be a significant amount of people completely cancelling their trip after booking, but I'm sure there will be a good percentage that will say "This is our last trip until things improve" or even "I'm completely done with WDW".

 

[Lilofan]

Every time I think Disney charges too much, I go to another theme park (like Six Flags or Sesame Place) and then vow to pay any amount of money Disney will charge me and never go anywhere else again.

Yes, I wish it was still as affordable as it used to be, but I am still willing to pay because the experience is so vastly better than anywhere else.

Very true. And also guests go to Disney for very different reasons. To celebrate with family or friends, go solo, get married, go as their last dying wish, to spread a family member ashes in a certain part of the park ( yes, that really happens). Sometimes regardless of cost.

 

[VaderTron]

The crowding issues are absolutely not a simple function of staffing. When you can't hardly walk for the sea of people in the common areas of the park, you know it's not about the lines.

Well yes, and no. It's not just staffing reductions causing more crowding and it's not just opening ride sides slowly as the attendance grows that backs up lines. Fastpass+ and the ability to get unlimited fastpasses is what's causing the same amount of people to make the park seem more crowded. Here's why:

We all know that booking additional fastpasses beyond your initial 3 was almost like a secret hidden in plain sight for quite a while. There's so many things to know, remember and plan about a WDW trip it seemed to be a hidden secret like the ability to get free cups of ice water from any quick service location or food cart with a soda fountain. However, in the last couple of years I have personally observed the number of people on their phones trying to get their next fastpass rise exponentially. What does that do to lines?

In past years, early Fastpasses were often ignored or were booked by the "rookies". Guests would go at park opening or soon thereafter and ride a few E-tickets with a shorter wait. Then while they waited for their fastpasses that were booked for later that morning or the afternoon the guests would go on some short-line-rides, shows, go in shops, snack, etc. Now people crush the early Fastpasses so they can book more throughout the day. That sends early morning line lengths up almost as soon as the park opens. Not helping is the fact that WDW now performs partial ride openings or slow openings (where the ride type allows).

How does this affect "crowding" issues? First, in the mornings it encourages more shopping/eating and general "milling about" in the common areas. Why?

1) A half-open Space Mountain with a 60 min line at 9:30 deters many from entering that stand-by line. Instead guests who walked that way and decide not to stand in line walk somewhere else. I have seen some people walk from ride to ride looking at line lengths and just walking away somewhere else. If that line was 30 min (the time it would be were the ride fully open from the beginning of the day) those people who walked away would be in line for a ride, not walking around/shopping/eating.

2) More people are booking fastpasses period, and an increasing number are booking fastpasses beyond their initial allotment of three. Why does that matter? As soon as you scan your band on you final fastpass you can instantly start looking for a new one on your phone. I see people in THE FASTPASS LINE looking at their phone and hitting refresh over-and-over-and-over looking for their next Fastpass. Finally one they want pops up as available and they book for their party. This person and their booking party are now standing in MULTIPLE LINES at the same time. They are actively waiting for a ride and as soon as it's done they will walk over to their next fastpass and ride that ride. Within 40 minutes they may ride Pirates of the Caribbean and Splash Mountain and Jungle Cruise while the ride wait times for those rides are 30 min (Pirates) and 45 min (Splash) and 50 min (Jungle). [Before you ask, yes I did this too when I used to go. It seemed the only way to get some value back from the broken system. But I still don't like the system.] This actually affects more than just the ride lines. Not everyone goes from ride-to-ride. Some may be in a store, at a restaurant, or walking along a path while actively looking for fastpasses. So, instead of standing in a queue line, out of the way of others they are taking up common space, restaurant space, or shopping space during the time they would actually be in a ride line. Instead they finish their meal, buy their trinkets, or "mill about" until their ride time and THEN get in a queue for all of 5 minutes.

This is the real reason parks look more crowded than they actually are.

 

[Trackmaster]

Well yes, and no. It's not just staffing reductions causing more crowding and it's not just opening ride sides slowly as the attendance grows that backs up lines. Fastpass+ and the ability to get unlimited fastpasses is what's causing the same amount of people to make the park seem more crowded. Here's why:

We all know that booking additional fastpasses beyond your initial 3 was almost like a secret hidden in plain sight for quite a while. There's so many things to know, remember and plan about a WDW trip it seemed to be a hidden secret like the ability to get free cups of ice water from any quick service location or food cart with a soda fountain. However, in the last couple of years I have personally observed the number of people on their phones trying to get their next fastpass rise exponentially. What does that do to lines?

In past years, early Fastpasses were often ignored or were booked by the "rookies". Guests would go at park opening or soon thereafter and ride a few E-tickets with a shorter wait. Then while they waited for their fastpasses that were booked for later that morning or the afternoon the guests would go on some short-line-rides, shows, go in shops, snack, etc. Now people crush the early Fastpasses so they can book more throughout the day. That sends early morning line lengths up almost as soon as the park opens. Not helping is the fact that WDW now performs partial ride openings or slow openings (where the ride type allows).

How does this affect "crowding" issues? First, in the mornings it encourages more shopping/eating and general "milling about" in the common areas. Why?

1) A half-open Space Mountain with a 60 min line at 9:30 deters many from entering that stand-by line. Instead guests who walked that way and decide not to stand in line walk somewhere else. I have seen some people walk from ride to ride looking at line lengths and just walking away somewhere else. If that line was 30 min (the time it would be were the ride fully open from the beginning of the day) those people who walked away would be in line for a ride, not walking around/shopping/eating.

2) More people are booking fastpasses period, and an increasing number are booking fastpasses beyond their initial allotment of three. Why does that matter? As soon as you scan your band on you final fastpass you can instantly start looking for a new one on your phone. I see people in THE FASTPASS LINE looking at their phone and hitting refresh over-and-over-and-over looking for their next Fastpass. Finally one they want pops up as available and they book for their party. This person and their booking party are now standing in MULTIPLE LINES at the same time. They are actively waiting for a ride and as soon as it's done they will walk over to their next fastpass and ride that ride. Within 30 minutes they may ride Pirates of the Caribbean and Splash Mountain and Jungle Cruise while the ride wait times for those rides are 30 min (Pirates) and 45 min (Splash) and 50 min (Jungle). [Before you ask, yes I did this too when I used to go. It seemed the only way to get some value back from the broken system. But I still don't like the system.] This actually affects more than just the ride lines. Not everyone goes from ride-to-ride. Some may be in a store, at a restaurant, or walking along a path while actively looking for fastpasses. So, instead of standing in a queue line, out of the way of others they are taking up common space, restaurant space, or shopping space during the time they would actually be in a ride line. Instead they finish their meal, buy their trinkets, or "mill about" until their ride time and THEN get in a queue for all of 5 minutes.

This is the real reason parks look more crowded than they actually are.

Yeah, I have to admit that I'm an offender, and I abuse the heck out of FP+. Its the perfect system for somebody who loves to game the system, and loves to use loopholes to their advantage. Part of the fun is just doing it to maximize the day. But in all honesty, I think that the system should be changed to allow people who don't know how to use the system to benefit. Don't get me wrong, I'll abuse it until they change the rules, but for the park's perspective they should be more strategic, and help guests out some. Some ideas:

• Find a way to close the "pound the app loophole" ... this may be tough but some possibilities:
  • Make the system so that when a ride is booked, it will be re-released back into the system. If somebody cancels, the reservation is gone forever.
  • Write the code so that your available reservations will get smaller, never larger for a given day. Users who haven't looked yet can see the cancellations, but you're locked into the first ones that you saw when you looked initially (but they can go away when booked by others).
  • The system locks you out when you refresh too much. They could say something like "Whoa! You're trying to do too much! Figure out what you want and come back when you've made up your mind."
• Allow at most one extra FP+ when you've gone through your first set, or none at all. I really don't see how allowing people to book the whole day is helpful other than people who want to game the system.
• Expand the reservations to five from three. This will pick up some of the slack from not being able to rebook, but I think it will help people legitimately pre-plan and give them a piece of mind before they go -- I think that this is the main purpose of FP+: that you know beforehand that you're guaranteed walk-ons at minimum on those rides before you walk in.
• Disney should know their parks and know when they'll be ghost towns. On the bottom 15% of the expected crowd days, they should turn off FP+ altogether. I went during Irma several days, and FP+ was an absolute nuisance. The top ride still had waits, the FP+ was hard to get, and the rest of the park was dead.
• Most importantly: beef up your E, D, C Ticket collection. MK is more or less fine, but the other three parks should have at least 80% of the E, D, C tickets that MK has each. We probably wouldn't be having this conversation if there were enough rides so that you could miss out on the top 2 FP+, but there were still great, hot FP+'s out there.

 

[VaderTron]

A few of my Top 10 Disney World Moments-

1. Spending the day at the pool while watching the OSU v Michigan game, eating, drinking, cheering, laughing.

2. Ordering pizza and watching OSU in our room during an evening blackout game. Walking out to the balcony to watch the Electrical Water Parade and MK fireworks.

3. Ordering room service for breakfast and eating near the balcony door, watching MK wake up.

4. Playing foosball with my kid and then jumping in the pool, with the monorail going by in the background.

5. Riding bikes around Ft Wilderness.

6. Renting a boat and driving around Seven Seas Lagoon and Bay Lake.


Disney World is so much more than the parks. If people think there’s nothing to do when MK closes at 6 to the public, then I STRONGLY urge you to check out https://disneyworld.disney.go.com You may be surprised at your options.

No one suggested there is nothing to do besides the parks. The point was that the value of your park ticket is diminished. If you don't want to go to the park, yes there are hundreds of things to do, some of which cost nothing. But staying on the subject of park ticket value for a moment...

...Let's say I was selling a couch in my furniture store for $2000. This couch has two traditional seats and a detachable chaise lounge on the end. Then I decide to offer just the two seat portion (or a love seat with no armrest) that I still call a "couch" for $2000, but it comes with an optional chaise lounge that attaches on the end for just $500 more. Most people (perhaps not you) would be insulted.

Now if I were you, I would be more interested in the small up-charge increases. Because eventually they will touch on something you value. For example, charging you a resort fee. You can bet your bottom dollar Disney already would have introduced a resort fee had the parking fee not met with such vicious rancor. What happens when they start charging you to ride the monorail if you don't have a park ticket? How about charging you a fireworks viewing fee (in addition to your fireworks view price increase for your room that is already in affect)? If you don't think these charges are waiting in the wings you haven't been paying attention of late.