General political chat

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Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
Yeah...that’s not how “healthcare is a right” is supposed to work. Some of those espousing this platitude don’t mean what they say.

I personally see ignoring health orders as a form of crime.
Especially if your actions can negatively effect others. People who commit crime forfeit certain rights when caught and punished. Temporarily sometimes. Permanently for heinous crimes.

For me, this feels no different. So I am happy to publicly state on here, I see health care as a right. Just as much as any other right, until you willfully make a violation and then some of your rights become restricted.
 

Wendy Pleakley

Well-Known Member
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For those who do their due diligence and follow public health orders sure. For those who openly disobey... I’m not so sure? There could definitely be an argument against them.

Kind of like anti-vax humans. If you get sick... sorry about it.

I understand the sentiment of why are we paying to take care of people who intentionally put themselves at risk?

Ultimately, it's a slippery slope to go down and even if one supports the notion, it would be impossible to ascertain whether or not someone is 100% personally at fault in any given case.

Imagine trying to determine after every car accident, every overdose, every injury, whether or not the person brought it on themself.
 

Prince-1

Well-Known Member
I personally see ignoring health orders as a form of crime.
Especially if your actions can negatively effect others. People who commit crime forfeit certain rights when caught and punished. Temporarily sometimes. Permanently for heinous crimes.

For me, this feels no different. So I am happy to publicly state on here, I see health care as a right. Just as much as any other right, until you willfully make a violation and then some of your rights become restricted.

I get what you are saying and I agree that people should be held accountable for blatantly putting themselves and others in harms way. Luckily for them they will get the medical care they need when they infect themselves and their loved ones.
 
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Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
I understand the sentiment of why are we paying to take care of people who intentionally put themselves at risk?

Ultimately, it's a slippery slope to go down and even if one supports the notion, it would be impossible to ascertain whether or not someone is 100% personally at fault in any given case.

Imagine trying to determine after every car accident, every overdose, every injury, whether or not the person brought it on themself.

This is true. I see your point.

I kind of only envision it for situations like we are currently in, with infections diseases.
 

DoubleJ21

Well-Known Member
We once had a woman defecate at the front door of restaurant as we were closed and the door was locked... so she couldn’t come in to use our bathroom... she sure showed us. ( the city public restrooms were just downstairs...)
When I worked retail, one time a human defecated in the women’s accessories department (other than the fact that the store’s cameras caught it, I didn’t get any other details about the customer). Another customer accidentally stepped in it...and proceeded to wipe the bottom of her shoe on the store‘s carpet to get the feces off her shoe while smearing it all over the carpet.

Housekeeping wasn’t happy.
 

DoubleJ21

Well-Known Member
But isn’t healthcare a right?
For me, this feels no different. So I am happy to publicly state on here, I see health care as a right. Just as much as any other right
I think the point of confusion with things being labeled ”rights” is how the word is interpreted. For those on the right leaning side of the political spectrum we really only believe in negative rights (freedom of speech, etc). Those on the left often use ”rights” to describe positive rights (things the government provides to citizens, like education or healthcare), which are completely different from the former.

From the right’s perspective, and whether they admit it or not is recognized by basically everybody, healthcare is a commodity. Healthcare requires that somebody sacrifices their time and energy to help you. And from a Lockean natural rights perspective, you don’t have the right to somebody else’s labor. Therefore, when designing a healthcare system, you have to incentivize the creation and availability of medical products and services. There are many countries where healthcare is a ”right” in their constitution but their citizens have terrible access to healthcare, let alone good healthcare.

None of which should be controversial.

TL;DR Healthcare is a commodity, and declaring a commodity a right doesn’t make it accessible or abundant to the population. To do that, a society must incentivize the availability of a commodity. How we should do that is the fundamental political question.
 

DoubleJ21

Well-Known Member
One of my cousins and his wife got a new puppy and she's just the cutest!! 😍
Screen Shot 2020-05-10 at 9.43.24 PM.png
 

Mrhappyplace

Well-Known Member
Controversial take:

I think if any get sick after this, doctors and nurses should have the right to refuse to help them. And if they infect anyone they should be sued.
Let’s add all the people who are protesting with their guns at their state capitols and on the streets and everywhere else.
I mean. They are saying they accept the risk... so why should the health system/health care workers be burdened with them?

Wow. Just wow.
I really wonder if the Hippocratic Oath would allow anybody medical treatment if you two were allowed to write it, I mean that is one slippery slope you want to stand on top of. Next thing you know doctors will be refusing to treat motorcycle riders, smokers, people who consume too many carbs, don't eat a particularly healthy diet, etc.
 

Prince-1

Well-Known Member
Wow. Just wow.
I really wonder if the Hippocratic Oath would allow anybody medical treatment if you two were allowed to write it, I mean that is one slippery slope you want to stand on top of. Next thing you know doctors will be refusing to treat motorcycle riders, smokers, people who consume too many carbs, don't eat a particularly healthy diet, etc.

Except doing all those things you mentioned can’t get a health care provider sick with the coronavirus. And yes the idiots who are screaming nonsense should and will be treated but they should be aware that they are putting other people at risk and increasingly overloading a medical system that is being pushed to the limits.
 

Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
Wow. Just wow.
I really wonder if the Hippocratic Oath would allow anybody medical treatment if you two were allowed to write it, I mean that is one slippery slope you want to stand on top of. Next thing you know doctors will be refusing to treat motorcycle riders, smokers, people who consume too many carbs, don't eat a particularly healthy diet, etc.

Im just growing weary. I have such little patience for these people.
 

sedati

Well-Known Member
For years now Trump has required local business to close every weekend he went down to Mara Lago. Why couldn't these businesses liberate themselves as they just want to work in a free country?
 

Mrhappyplace

Well-Known Member
Except doing all those things you mentioned can’t get a health care provider sick with the coronavirus. And yes the idiots who are screaming nonsense should and will be treated but they should be aware that they are putting other people at risk and increasingly overloading a medical system that is being pushed to the limits.

Still once you allow people to make the decision of who does and doesn't deserve treatment there are bound to be bad decisions made.

Im just growing weary. I have such little patience for these people.

And apparently no sympathy for anyone who doesn't think the way you do.
 

sedati

Well-Known Member
I understand the sentiment of why are we paying to take care of people who intentionally put themselves at risk?
The woman who licked ice cream at Walmart faces 20 years in prison.
In Pennsylvania a coughing "prank" was deemed a terrorist act utilizing a biological agent.
A 65 year old who purposefully coughed and spit in a Massachusetts supermarket was tackled and arrested with charges of destruction of property.

What we're seeing more and more are less blatantly severe acts, but they're not nothing either.
No one should be denied care, but they should absolutely pay every cent of our bloated American costs (The one pre-existing condition that should get you denied health insurance coverage is being a willful idiot.)
 

Mrhappyplace

Well-Known Member
Should I have sympathy for those who only care for themselves?

I don't generally tell others how to live or who to have sympathy for and I have no intention of breaking that custom for you. Generally I feel sorry for people with mental illnesses and put people who can't make a good decision in that category.
 

sedati

Well-Known Member
Should I have sympathy for those who only care for themselves?
Some people live to be cautionary tales.

Sadly, we've already gotten so many these past few months. Tearful, grief-stricken prayers for others not to be so foolish- to take this seriously. But we've seen it really only hits when it hits home, so no matter how many, they will continue to fall on deaf ears (or more accurately, plugged ears.)

And seriously, is there really nothing a nation can ask of its people? I thought freedom wasn't free. Wearing a mask and socially distancing is a pretty small request compared to what others have given before- though the stakes may be just as high.
 

sedati

Well-Known Member
Wow. Just wow.
I really wonder if the Hippocratic Oath would allow anybody medical treatment if you two were allowed to write it, I mean that is one slippery slope you want to stand on top of. Next thing you know doctors will be refusing to treat motorcycle riders, smokers, people who consume too many carbs, don't eat a particularly healthy diet, etc.
You’re thinking of normal circumstances though. Already some doctors have had to make tough choices. If there are doctors and supplies enough to treat everyone, then of course everyone should get treatment. But what happens when there aren’t enough supplies or doctors? But then, why not these fools? All things otherwise being equal, if a decision has to be made between someone who did everything that was asked of them, and someone who not only didn’t, but bragged about it, then who should get it? It’s dark, and hypothetical, but I know who I’d pick.
 

Mrhappyplace

Well-Known Member
You’re thinking of normal circumstances though. Already some doctors have had to make tough choices. If there are doctors and supplies enough to treat everyone, then of course everyone should get treatment. But what happens when there aren’t enough supplies or doctors? But then, why not these fools? All things otherwise being equal, if a decision has to be made between someone who did everything that was asked of them, and someone who not only didn’t, but bragged about it, then who should get it? It’s dark, and hypothetical, but I know who I’d pick.

The hypothetical you are putting forth is a far cry from
doctors and nurses should have the right to refuse to help them
You are talking about the best allocation of resources and not refusal of aid to people who weren't capable of making the decision to protect themselves from a virus.
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
When I worked retail, one time a human defecated in the women’s accessories department (other than the fact that the store’s cameras caught it, I didn’t get any other details about the customer). Another customer accidentally stepped in it...and proceeded to wipe the bottom of her shoe on the store‘s carpet to get the feces off her shoe while smearing it all over the carpet.

Housekeeping wasn’t happy.
Pretty much many streets in Paris, one can step in dog poop and just keep walking.
 
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