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General political chat

Club Cooloholic

Well-Known Member
It is laughable that people bought into the Trump Russian hoax and then believed Dr Ford's 30 year old testimony with no proof or no witnesses.

Trump doing it is no better than what the left has done for three years.

Of course going forward until election day we are going to hear that Trump is a racist and white nationalist.
That will be done by lies about what he said and will be just as delusional.
Jim, going back to the 70s when there was evidence of Trump refusing to rent to black tenants, to now where he is praised by white supremacists and thus is slow to condemn them and has even retweeted them, and when he attacked Obama from everything from his citizenship to weather he was a good enough student to go to Harvard. The thoughts that he is racist are not out of thin air. Do I think he is? I have said before I think Donald Trump will say or do whatever will move him up the chain in power and in this case keep him there. He knows his base and how to appeal to them. That doesn't mean in his pandering that is who he is deep down (many politicans are guilty of this from both sides of the aisle) but usually politicans steer clear of pandering to the kinds of people he does.
 

aw14

Well-Known Member
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You keep repeating this mischaracterization despite evidence to the contrary.

Mass shooting demographics:
View attachment 399872
U.S. population demographics:
View attachment 399875
I applaud you for posting the facts, and trying to put a little sanity back into the discussion. I for one tired of reading consistent drivel about "this counts for this crime, not that". The fact is, we are looking at gun crimes and mass shootings, and the only thing being discussed is the belief that its a bunch of angry white guys. Its short sighted and wrong.

We have a variety of issues, and the posts are nothing more than blame and kicking the can down the road. But hey, it helps people deal I suppose
 

aw14

Well-Known Member
Jim, going back to the 70s when there was evidence of Trump refusing to rent to black tenants, to now where he is praised by white supremacists and thus is slow to condemn them and has even retweeted them, and when he attacked Obama from everything from his citizenship to weather he was a good enough student to go to Harvard. The thoughts that he is racist are not out of thin air. Do I think he is? I have said before I think Donald Trump will say or do whatever will move him up the chain in power and in this case keep him there. He knows his base and how to appeal to them. That doesn't mean in his pandering that is who he is deep down (many politicans are guilty of this from both sides of the aisle) but usually politicans steer clear of pandering to the kinds of people he does.
this (the bolded) is where you and I are on the same page. I do not like, nor approve of Trump or anyone winking and nodding with the "alt-right" or "alt-left". It is pandering plain and simple, and the worst part, its just for votes.

Its the same to me as those that were associated with Robert Byrd, but now claim some sense of the moral high ground.
 

Club Cooloholic

Well-Known Member
You keep repeating this mischaracterization despite evidence to the contrary.

Mass shooting demographics:
View attachment 399872
U.S. population demographics:
View attachment 399875
10 year old stats
..well I think when discussing mass shooting Tony means the kind where you get shot at a carnival because the shooter decided to go kill some people, not drug deals gone bad robberies, etc, which may be considered mass shooting too. All of it is terrible and thus why gun control is mentioned, but that argument has been exhausted in here with the lines clearly drawn between those that want to do something about it and those that want nothing done(and I do know you want something done and appreciate that).
I think this is an interesting compilation of stats...
Do I think focusing on a person's color is the way to figure out who is more likely to be a mass shooter? Hell no, if it's more white mass shooters that is probably due to the fact there are more white people. I think what is alarming though is the motives of some of the last few, which have been motivated by xenophobia. I think blaming Trump though would be like blaming Rage Againt The Machine(yes going way back) for a fan killing a bunch of a white people. You can hear their message but at no point does either advocate for murdering people, in the end the blame is on these people, and where I agree with Tony, the blame is on our legislators that have chosen to do nothing.
 

DoubleJ21

Well-Known Member
well I think when discussing mass shooting Tony means the kind where you get shot at a carnival because the shooter decided to go kill some people, not drug deals gone bad robberies
Hence why the data is separated by familial, felony, and public.

U.S. demographics haven’t changed that much in 10 years.
 

DoubleJ21

Well-Known Member
I think what is alarming though is the motives of some of the last few, which have been motivated by xenophobia. I think blaming Trump though would be like blaming Rage Againt The Machine(yes going way back) for a fan killing a bunch of a white people. You can hear their message but at no point does either advocate for murdering people, in the end the blame is on these people, and where I agree with Tony, the blame is on our legislators that have chosen to do nothing.
I agree with this.
 

Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
Sounds more like a union/Shell issue than a Trump issue. Also, if some of them are getting $700 a day(including benefits and per diem) to go listen to some blowhard president, I'll take their place if they don't want to be there.
Oh I agree that I don’t think it was a Trump thing... but it’s still icky.
 

Prince-1

Well-Known Member
It is laughable that people bought into the Trump Russian hoax and then believed Dr Ford's 30 year old testimony with no proof or no witnesses.

Trump doing it is no better than what the left has done for three years.

Of course going forward until election day we are going to hear that Trump is a racist and white nationalist.
That will be done by lies about what he said and will be just as delusional.
So in other words you just have whataboutism to contribute.

Thanks Jim!!
 

Laketravis

Premium Member
In other words, we must do nothing. Don't worry. That's exactly what will be done.

Nothing.

Until it happens again.

And it will.

And then more outrage, more thoughts and prayers, more demands for reform, more lies that stuff will be done, and then the politicians and news outlets will see something shiny and get distracted and move on. It's already happening with the last shooting. They are all quietly moving on while doing nothing.

Next shooting will happen. Above pattern will repeat.
I have no idea what your comments have to do with my post (which was directed at someone else), but I'm doing my best to consider them anyway and the only conclusion I can come up with is you were being sarcastic?
 

Laketravis

Premium Member
Thank you for your (and others) bringing this topic up again - as a discussion, rather than a sort of "gotcha" throw it out there..........

...........Pretending that crime related shootings and mass shootings both have the same cause, or comparing them in an effort to score points, will do nothing to solve the problem.
I honestly expected better. "Minority Report", anyone?

Pointing out that over 1,700 people were shot in one city alone so far this year and how that is not receiving anywhere near the same level of focus as news that some some lunatic has been arrested for THINKING about shooting someone is not some sort of "gotcha" or attempt to "score points" in a game others are playing. It's a cold, hard fact that apparently no one wants to address because as others have pointed out, it doesn't fit the narrative. And that in of itself guarantees nothing will be done to solve the problem.

In my mind the aggregate number of those shot and killed so far this year in one city alone is tantamount to a "mass killing" - 294 people have been shot and killed in that city alone so far this year. How are those deaths any different than the 20 deaths in El Paso other than being spread out over 8 months???? You think the solution is different? Okay, let's hear what it is, not set it aside and refuse to discuss it because "that's different"????

Not a "whataboutism". Not a "gotcha". Not an "effort to score points". That's a fact that I believe is disrespectful to each and every victim to gloss over.
 
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SorcererMC

Well-Known Member
I'm trying to understand what is so funny about an earnest post of mass shooting statistics that someone could actually click the laughing emoji for it.
Read the table again. @Tony the Tigger's claim is accurate. He was clearly referring to public mass shootings.
Most of the mass shootings have been committed by white men. Three more were arrested for some kind of attempt or preparations in the last few days.
 

Laketravis

Premium Member
All of it is terrible and thus why gun control is mentioned, but that argument has been exhausted in here with the lines clearly drawn between those that want to do something about it and those that want nothing done
Unless it violates forum rules, can you specifically name who has been part of this discussion that wants nothing done about it? Quite the contrary, I think from what I've read that everyone wants something done about it. The disagreement lately has been about what "it" is.
 

The Mom

Moderator
Premium Member
I honestly expected better. "Minority Report", anyone?

Pointing out that over 1,700 people were shot in one city alone so far this year and how that is not receiving anywhere near the same level of focus as news that some some lunatic has been arrested for THINKING about shooting someone is not some sort of "gotcha" or attempt to "score points" in a game others are playing. It's a cold, hard fact that apparently no one wants to address because as others have pointed out, it doesn't fit the narrative. And that in of itself guarantees nothing will be done to solve the problem.

In my mind the aggregate number of those shot and killed so far this year in one city alone is tantamount to a "mass killing" - 294 people have been shot and killed in that city alone so far this year. How are those deaths any different than the 20 deaths in El Paso other than being spread out over 8 months???? You think the solution is different? Okay, let's hear what it is, not set it aside and refuse to discuss it because "that's different"????

Not a "whataboutism". Not a "gotcha". Not an "effort to score points". That's a fact that I believe is disrespectful to each and every victim to gloss over.
You don't see a difference between a career criminal shooting cops, for example, in an attempt to escape punishment versus someone shooting up a school for some illogical reason (at least to most of us)? They can both be helped by the public not standing silently by if sharing knowledge will stop/identify the shooter.

What is done after the fact is where the motive comes into play.

But posting "Look, another white male shot up a ......." or "look, x number of minorities shot each other in x city this weekend" doesn't really lead us (as a nation) towards any solution. And, you're correct; it is not some game with points to be scored - although sometimes, IMO, it looks that way.
 

Laketravis

Premium Member
You don't see a difference between a career criminal shooting cops, for example, in an attempt to escape punishment versus someone shooting up a school for some illogical reason (at least to most of us)? They can both be helped by the public not standing silently by if sharing knowledge will stop/identify the shooter.

What is done after the fact is where the motive comes into play.

But posting "Look, another white male shot up a ......." or "look, x number of minorities shot each other in x city this weekend" doesn't really lead us (as a nation) towards any solution. And, you're correct; it is not some game with points to be scored - although sometimes, IMO, it looks that way.
Honestly (and I'm not being a smarta$$) but to me dead is dead. Are there differences? Of course. But there are also differences between individual "mass shootings". Ultimately the common denominators are the same - the method used (firearms) and the end result (death).

Could fingerprint sensors or some other means of preventing a weapon from firing prevent both a mass shooting killing dozens AND perhaps 200 more deaths in one city spread out over 4 months? I'd then propose that maybe that method WOULD NOT prevent the possible mass shooting by some "bone headed white boy" who previously qualified for such a weapon but then had some neurological connection in their brain go awry.

Wouldn't 200 other deaths have been prevented? Isn't that worthy of discussion?

Airbags in vehicles prevent a variety of different injuries and causes of death, not just those involving a front-end collision with another vehicle. My point is that solution was not borne of a singular cause of death (front end collisions) but as a larger solution involving what can cause deaths (vehicle collisions of all kinds).
 
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The Mom

Moderator
Premium Member
Honestly (and I'm not being a smarta$$) but to me dead is dead. Are there differences? Of course. But there are also differences between individual "mass shootings". Ultimately the common denominators are the same - the method used (firearms) and the end result (death).

Airbags in vehicles prevent a variety of different injuries and causes of death, not just those involving a front-end collision with another vehicle. My point is that solution was not borne of a singular cause of death (front end collisions) but as a larger solution involving what can cause deaths (vehicle collisions of all kinds).
I was just trying to point out that better mental health services, as one example of something posited as helping, are not going to do much to stop a career criminal. Nor is banning "assault" weapons. But in so many instances if someone had said something before or after the fact future deaths might have been prevented. Not all, but some. Red flags may help, but what about the red flags for neighborhood shootings that have been posted over and over again; if someone commits a crime using a firearm there is a good chance he's going to do it again.
There are people who are determined enough to kill others that banning all firearms will not make a difference - witness 46 killed at wedding in Kabul by a suicide bomber. There isn't all that much we can do to stop fanatics who do not value life, so we will probably continue to see mass shootings, bombings, etc.
 

Laketravis

Premium Member
I was just trying to point out that better mental health services, as one example of something posited as helping, are not going to do much to stop a career criminal.
Are you sure? Could the career a criminal chooses not manifest itself from some sort of mental health issue? Aren't there cries for more mental health services in prison systems because the belief is that could help to substantially reduce recidivism among career criminals?

I'll refrain from posting a bunch of Googled links that offer a wealth of evidence to the contrary :D
 

Club Cooloholic

Well-Known Member
Unless it violates forum rules, can you specifically name who has been part of this discussion that wants nothing done about it? Quite the contrary, I think from what I've read that everyone wants something done about it. The disagreement lately has been about what "it" is.
I actually have before. And one of them yelled at me for naming them, I honestly don't feel like dealing with that again.
 
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