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General political chat

OneofThree

Well-Known Member
What bothers me most about the witch hunt investigation is this:

When Obama was acting unilaterally and the Senate majority followed suit, my greatest concern was the establishment of a precedent which might haunt us moving forward. Those concerns have been proven warranted by the current administration and current majority. In the same way, I now fully expect Trump's successor's presidency (whether dem or Rep) to be littered with the same sort of accusations, rhetoric, and effective inquisitions from get-go. Bank on it.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
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And speculation is all that it is....for now. As I said before. If anyone in the previous administration was complicit for political reasons, they should be prosecuted too. The thing is, we know so little of what's actually going on in Mueller's offices. Yet we all speculate on the little that has leaked out or happened publicly. We can't really make any judgments one way or another until the whole thing wraps up. Until then, you just have the two sides speculating. Everything from Trump has been in cohoots with Putin for a decade and this was all part of a master plan....all the way to this is a vast conspiracy of the deep state out to stop Trump from draining the swamp and upending the status quo. And all the various levels in between. But none of us has proof either way. SO, considering what is at stake here if some real nefarious stuff was going down, its in all of our best interest to let the investigation run its course. If we squash it for political reasons with no proof, we only risk undermining our own democracy. If we let it finish, all we lose is money.
This is the crux of the matter. No one so far has been convicted of anything related to the interference. It has all been things from their past.. so do we go back as well?.., it happened under their watch.
It happened under that administration, why is there not any investigations there?

I don’t understand how it’s not concerning to any American, regardless of political party, that these investigations have taken such a turn.. this isn’t what we were sold.
 

gsam4ever

Well-Known Member
The only issue I have with this thought, is that it has been speculated frequently that the previous admin knew this was going on and did not intervene. Not sure if that would constitute an illegal act on the part of the previous admin, but there is ample filth to be thrown around at many people.
I'm sure from what I read that Obama knew that Russia was trying to interfere with our elections and didn't do a lot to stop it besides warning Trump and his transition team. If this is indeed true then he and his administration deserves some heat for not doing enough. Is it illegal...absolutely not.

With that being said there is HUGE difference between knowing about it and not doing enough to try and stop it (and we do not know how much and for how long Obama knew to be fair) and the amount of shady dealings that have been proven and will be proven with Trump and his team.

One may have known and warned Trump about the Russians and did not do enough to prevent it (BAD) and the other actively pursued the Russians in order to change the outcome of the election (WAY WAY BADDER!!!!)
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
What bothers me most about the witch hunt investigation is this:

When Obama was acting unilaterally and the Senate majority followed suit, my greatest concern was the establishment of a precedent which might haunt us moving forward. Those concerns have been proven warranted by the current administration and current majority. In the same way, I now fully expect Trump's successor's presidency (whether dem or Rep) to be littered with the same sort of accusations, rhetoric, and effective inquisitions from get-go. Bank on it.
Our money, taken out of the bank.. to pay for investigations that have nothing to do with national security/election interference.
It’s so gross at this point. Anyone who believes that only Republican businessmen/politicians have committed white collar crimes which could be federally prosecuted.. Well, I have some land in Wakanda to sell to you.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
This is the crux of the matter. No one so far has been convicted of anything related to the interference. It has all been things from their past.. so we do go back as well?
Convicted? No. Indicted? Yes. And again, you don't actually know what's going on inside Mueller's camp. We dont' even know what info Manafort is giving up in his plea deal yet. Probably smart to wait and see before we make broad statements of what is happening behind closed doors.

It happened under that administration, why is there not any investigations there?
The investigation is into the election meddling. Not the administration.


I don’t understand how it’s not concerning to any American, regardless of political party, that these investigations have taken such a turn.. this isn’t what we were sold.
You weren't sold anything. You didn't have a say in this investigation outside of electing the man who appointed appointed the people who started the investigation. The Attorney General's office determined what to investigate and are acting upon it. A REPUBLICAN appointee has decided what is worth and not worth investigating. And we only have a little sliver of a view into what's going on in that investigation because of the plea deals happening out in the open.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Convicted? No. Indicted? Yes. And again, you don't actually know what's going on inside Mueller's camp. We dont' even know what info Manafort is giving up in his plea deal yet. Probably smart to wait and see before we make broad statements of what is happening behind closed doors.
Was Manaford indicted for anything pertaining to election conspiracy?

The investigation is into the election meddling. Not the administration.
See above.

You weren't sold anything. You didn't have a say in this investigation outside of electing the man who appointed appointed the people who started the investigation. The Attorney General's office determined what to investigate and are acting upon it. A REPUBLICAN appointee has decided what is worth and not worth investigating. And we only have a little sliver of a view into what's going on in that investigation because of the plea deals happening out in the open.
Are we now claiming that Republicans were screaming like hyenas for this investigation? Or was it someone else..?
 

gsam4ever

Well-Known Member
Convicted? No. Indicted? Yes. And again, you don't actually know what's going on inside Mueller's camp. We dont' even know what info Manafort is giving up in his plea deal yet. Probably smart to wait and see before we make broad statements of what is happening behind closed doors.


The investigation is into the election meddling. Not the administration.



You weren't sold anything. You didn't have a say in this investigation outside of electing the man who appointed appointed the people who started the investigation. The Attorney General's office determined what to investigate and are acting upon it. A REPUBLICAN appointee has decided what is worth and not worth investigating. And we only have a little sliver of a view into what's going on in that investigation because of the plea deals happening out in the open.
Well said. I guess that people expect Mueller to give daily briefings on what he and his team are doing and what they have found out. Shocking!! it doesn't work like that. He is slowly moving forward and doing the job that he was hired (by a Republican) to do. People complain that it should wrap up because it's taking so much time but I already posted a chart on the length of other special counsels investigations and Mueller's isn't long at all comparative to those.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
Was Manaford indicted for anything pertaining to election conspiracy?
It doesn’t matter what he was indicted for it matters what info he’s giving up in his plea deal.

Plus I wasn’t talking about him I was talking about all those pesky Russians people conveniently like to forget about who were indicted for election meddling.

That alone makes the investigation a worthy endeavor regardless of what else is found.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
Are we now claiming that Republicans were screaming like hyenas for this investigation? Or was it someone else..?
You’ve lost me. I’m honestly not sure what this has to do with anything we were discussing. Are you claiming that there was no election meddling and that the republican attorney generals office only started the investigation to quiet the minority party?
 

EricsBiscuit

Well-Known Member
Nazism is considered right wing because it's fascist. Per Merriam Webster, fascism a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorical leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

Nazis used the Aryan race and identity to push and state they were better and above others while being headed by an all powerful leader.

RIghtwing and leftwing can have authoritarian governments. The biggest difference however between communism and fascism is in perfect theory and not how its actually applied in a true communist society every one no matter what is considered equal whereas fascism thrives on class.
What makes fascism socialist is the "severe economic and social regimentation." The difference b/w fascism and communism is the race part. I would disagree that use of race and nationalism is inherently right wing. In any case, fascism is extremely oppressive and clashes with every single one of my libertarian values.
 

EricsBiscuit

Well-Known Member
What bugs me about Trump is when he is wrong, he entrenched himself in that position to try to save face. I support him on policy and for how he says most stuff. But when he starts entrenching himself when he's wrong over little stuff like the inauguration attendance, it bugs me.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
You’ve lost me. I’m honestly not sure what this has to do with anything we were discussing. Are you claiming that there was no election meddling and that the republican attorney generals office only started the investigation to quiet the minority party?
There are groups within our government who have responsibility over times like this.

I know people like to forget/ignore that, but believe it or not investigations take place without a Mueller.

I don’t like the witch hunt this has become, and I just hope for America that the end justifies the means, and that we didn’t waste valuable resources, distract the POTUS, and suffer so much division- all for convictions of past actions which don’t pertain to Russia meddling at all.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
It doesn’t matter what he was indicted for it matters what info he’s giving up in his plea deal.

Plus I wasn’t talking about him I was talking about all those pesky Russians people conveniently like to forget about who were indicted for election meddling.

That alone makes the investigation a worthy endeavor regardless of what else is found.
Are you reading my posts? The charges against people connected to Trump have had nothing to do with election meddling. If there has been, can you please share who/what? I could have missed it in all seriousness... but I think it would be inescapable news if so.
 

Quinnmac000

Well-Known Member
What makes fascism socialist is the "severe economic and social regimentation." The difference b/w fascism and communism is the race part. I would disagree that use of race and nationalism is inherently right wing. In any case, fascism is extremely oppressive and clashes with every single one of my libertarian values.
Socialism is a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. Which goes completely against what regimentation means.

Regimentation is to organize rigidly especially for the sake of regulation or control. If everyone is in control which socialism actually states then regimentation can not exist.

A lot of "communist" countries are not communist or even socialist as it forgets the biggest part of communism is everyone is equal and in control. Those countries are totalitarian governments under the guise of communism.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
Are you reading my posts? The charges against people connected to Trump have had nothing to do with election meddling. If there has been, can you please share who/what? I could have missed it in all seriousness... but I think it would be inescapable news if so.
I believe it is you who is not reading.
Is the investigation over? Has it produced indictments related to Russian meddling? Do we know the full extent of what is being investigated and what information is being given in plea deals?

If you answer all of the above honestly then passing judgment on the investigations merits is nothing but assumptions and speculation based on limited info and/or political bias.
 
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