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General political chat

21stamps

Well-Known Member
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You’ve lost me. I’m honestly not sure what this has to do with anything we were discussing. Are you claiming that there was no election meddling and that the republican attorney generals office only started the investigation to quiet the minority party?
There are groups within our government who have responsibility over times like this.

I know people like to forget/ignore that, but believe it or not investigations take place without a Mueller.

I don’t like the witch hunt this has become, and I just hope for America that the end justifies the means, and that we didn’t waste valuable resources, distract the POTUS, and suffer so much division- all for convictions of past actions which don’t pertain to Russia meddling at all.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
It doesn’t matter what he was indicted for it matters what info he’s giving up in his plea deal.

Plus I wasn’t talking about him I was talking about all those pesky Russians people conveniently like to forget about who were indicted for election meddling.

That alone makes the investigation a worthy endeavor regardless of what else is found.
Are you reading my posts? The charges against people connected to Trump have had nothing to do with election meddling. If there has been, can you please share who/what? I could have missed it in all seriousness... but I think it would be inescapable news if so.
 

Quinnmac000

Well-Known Member
What makes fascism socialist is the "severe economic and social regimentation." The difference b/w fascism and communism is the race part. I would disagree that use of race and nationalism is inherently right wing. In any case, fascism is extremely oppressive and clashes with every single one of my libertarian values.
Socialism is a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. Which goes completely against what regimentation means.

Regimentation is to organize rigidly especially for the sake of regulation or control. If everyone is in control which socialism actually states then regimentation can not exist.

A lot of "communist" countries are not communist or even socialist as it forgets the biggest part of communism is everyone is equal and in control. Those countries are totalitarian governments under the guise of communism.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
Are you reading my posts? The charges against people connected to Trump have had nothing to do with election meddling. If there has been, can you please share who/what? I could have missed it in all seriousness... but I think it would be inescapable news if so.
I believe it is you who is not reading.
Is the investigation over? Has it produced indictments related to Russian meddling? Do we know the full extent of what is being investigated and what information is being given in plea deals?

If you answer all of the above honestly then passing judgment on the investigations merits is nothing but assumptions and speculation based on limited info and/or political bias.
 

OneofThree

Well-Known Member
I believe it is you who is not reading.
Is the investigation over? Has it produced indictments related to Russian meddling? Do we know the full extent of what is being investigated and what information is being given in plea deals?

If you answer all of the above honestly then passing judgment on the investigations merits is nothing but assumptions and speculation based on limited info and/or political bias.
In a vacuum, sure. But what must be considered is the motivation and subsequent utility of the investigations, and the subsequent impact on the nation today, as well the damage we'll be left to contend with moving forward.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
In a vacuum, sure. But what must be considered is the motivation and subsequent utility of the investigations, and the subsequent impact on the nation today, as well the damage we'll be left to contend with moving forward.
And that can be considered, but assigning a motive to those who started and are carrying out the investigation at this point is nothing but subjective speculation.

But even so, assuming for a minute that Rosenstein and Mueller are deep state plants as the conspiracy theorists would have you believe....if they found real wrong doing, does it matter? It matters to consciences of the individuals who made those decisions for political reasons maybe. But in the end, if people broke the law they broke the law. The motive of the investigators becomes irrelevant (assuming it is not some blown out of proportion minor charge used for political ends).
 

gsam4ever

Well-Known Member
In a vacuum, sure. But what must be considered is the motivation and subsequent utility of the investigations, and the subsequent impact on the nation today, as well the damage we'll be left to contend with moving forward.
So let’s not look for the truth because we are afraid of what the results will be and how it will affect the nation?? No thank you. I want the investigation to cross the finish line and see what Mueller and his team discovers. If it leads to something big so be it. The nation will persevere. If it leads to. I thing then also so be it.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Are you reading my posts? The charges against people connected to Trump have had nothing to do with election meddling. If there has been, can you please share who/what? I could have missed it in all seriousness... but I think it would be inescapable news if so.
Do you think that crimes discovered in the course of the investigation but not related to its stated aim should have been ignored? I'm not sure what you're saying should be done in such a situation.
 

gsam4ever

Well-Known Member
I don’t have a big quote from anyone but I do have several articles that claim that Manafort’s guilty plea will have him help Mueller with his investigation with Russia.

https://people.com/politics/paul-manafort-pleads-guilty-cooperation-mueller/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/09/14/paul-manafort-to-plead-guilty-as-part-plea-deal-with-special-counsel.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/manafort-plans-to-plead-guilty-to-second-set-of-charges/2018/09/14/a1541068-b5c9-11e8-a7b5-adaaa5b2a57f_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.8f07d675379a

So basically what we know is that we know nothing but I would say Mueller did not offer a plea deal unless he was getting something really bigly in return.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
Premium Member
I don’t have a big quote from anyone but I do have several articles that claim that Manafort’s guilty plea will have him help Mueller with his investigation with Russia.

https://people.com/politics/paul-manafort-pleads-guilty-cooperation-mueller/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/09/14/paul-manafort-to-plead-guilty-as-part-plea-deal-with-special-counsel.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/manafort-plans-to-plead-guilty-to-second-set-of-charges/2018/09/14/a1541068-b5c9-11e8-a7b5-adaaa5b2a57f_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.8f07d675379a

So basically what we know is that we know nothing but I would say Mueller did not offer a plea deal unless he was getting something really bigly in return.
Court docs also mention the podesta group. So....
 

OneofThree

Well-Known Member
assigning a motive to those who started and are carrying out the investigation at this point is nothing but subjective speculation
I could not disagree more.

But even so, assuming for a minute that Rosenstein and Mueller are deep state plants as the conspiracy theorists would have you believe....
Nothing I said concerns or alludes to this sort of thing.

And that can be considered, but assigning a motive to those who started and are carrying out the investigation at this point is nothing but subjective speculation.

But in the end, if people broke the law they broke the law. The motive of the investigators becomes irrelevant (assuming it is not some blown out of proportion minor charge used for political ends).
Now that we have an investigation and are left to deal with the fallout regardless of the outcome, I'm all for closure based on evidence. The idea that motive is irrelevant doesn't make much sense to me. The reason is because on the front side, there was little justification (there may be a complete lack of justification when all is said and done) for the complete debacle we've made out of Washington, largely because "I don't like Trump", "Trump is mean", "I can't believe he won", etc. Particularly absent some sort of indictment with linkages to the election, there is nothing else more relevant.
 

Jim S

Well-Known Member
It seems the lying orange doesn't fall from the lying orange tree.

Eric Trump goes head to head with a tv host about Eric's boast that, “We’ve got the fastest-growing economy in the history of our country,”. And guess what...he was wrong.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/eric-trump-fox-news-economy-lies-fact-checked_us_5b9b5868e4b013b0977954f5
There were a few quarters Obama had over 4% growth but over 8 years it was either 1.8% or 1.6% growth depending on when the stats are started.
Reagan had over 7% growth in some quarters.

The bottom line our economy is growing-wages up over 3% and 4 million people have moved off food stamps and into the work force.
It is time to stop focusing on semantics and recognize the positive things about the economy.
You know over 800,000 small businesses have been started in the last 3 months and 62% of them have been started by minorities and women.

I am happy for any president that can get the economy growing.
 

Jim S

Well-Known Member
Lets not pretend there was no inciting reason for this investigation. There was interference in our election by a foreign government that required an investigation. Trump had some corrupt people working for him. And he did some corrupt things while trying to protect his reputation during an election. If those were inadvertently exposed because of the investigation, I don't see that as a bad thing. And would think the same regardless of who was president.

Then I assume you are for the DOJ and FBI releasing the FISA warrants applications. It appears that was a scam investigation on Carter Page and as more and more Page and Strzok text surface-corruption is thru out the DOJ and FBI.

Wonder why all of those FBI people have resigned, been fired, been reassigned, and now McCabe being investigated by a Grand Jury.
He is not the only one being investigated.

They have nothing on Trump about collusion, election corruption, or obstruction.

Carter Page is probably going to be a rich man.

If there was election interference it occurred under Obama's watch. He is the one that lectured Trump that it was silly to think out election could be effected and told Trump to stop crying about it and start trying to win the election.
It is never good to follow the Stalin policy. "Show me the man and I will find a crime". That is not nor should it be the justice system in this country.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
Now that we have an investigation and are left to deal with the fallout regardless of the outcome, I'm all for closure based on evidence. The idea that motive is irrelevant doesn't make much sense to me. The reason is because on the front side, there was little justification (there may be a complete lack of justification when all is said and done) for the complete debacle we've made out of Washington, largely because "I don't like Trump", "Trump is mean", "I can't believe he won", etc. Particularly absent some sort of indictment with linkages to the election, there is nothing else more relevant.
The investigation is into Russian meddling into the election, who was responsible, and how it occurred. I don't see how and end result exonerating the president and identifying the Russians who carried it out would be a waste of time. Regardless of the outcome, this investigation was a worthy process to expose an attack on our country and our democracy.
 
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