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From the OS: Gator drags child into Seven Seas Lagoon

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21stamps

Well-Known Member
There is a duty of care within Innkeepers common law to reasonably watch out for a guests safety. The fact they were hotel guests adds another dimension than if they were say, lifestylers watching fireworks. Given the hotel right across the street warns of alligators, I am starting to come around that there should have been signs posted.

Still not relenting on my position that Marshmallow roasts are the next accident waiting to happen.
You are wrong. See my previous post on the page prior to this.

You guys are wrong. You can keep repeating it, but it won't change the fact that you are incorrect.

There is no such law in existence.
 

Raineman

Well-Known Member
True, but the odds of this happening again are so slim, but Disney had that mindset and look what happened. So in the long term, signs, and sea walls. And like you said even a boardwalk in some areas would do the trick I believe. Still though they're never going to get the kid back, I just wish Disney would've done something sooner.
I just hope everyone understands that, even with all of the signs and warnings that Disney could install, it will reduce the probability of anything else happening, but not remove it completely. If guests choose to ignore all warnings, signs, fences, etc, then nothing that Disney does is going to stop them. Elimination of the issue is impossible.
 

Daveeeeed

Well-Known Member
key word.. specific. They are not obligated to warn about the hazards that exist normally within the area. You are not required to warn 'there are sharks in the oceans' - but you would be obligated to warn if there was a specific elevated risk due to some new circumstances that were specific to that area.

Example: The HOA was not liable for not disclosing a risk with fire ants because there was no specific knowledge of an issue in that area.. even tho they had been treating fire ant issues in other locations when a known problem was identified
https://www.animallaw.info/case/hanrahan-v-hometown-america-llc

Example: The City was not responsible for not warning of dangerous rip currents because they were situations that can arrise normally in the ocean and in all oceans and were not a direct causation of action by the defendants - http://archive.law.fsu.edu/library/flsupct/sc02-1568/02-1569ans.pdf

This is why the animal doctrine and signs are not simple yes/no answers. The debate comes in over if there were extra circumstances that would lead to negligence or failures in duty of care because they argue the circumstances are beyond the normal expectations (and the whole debates over if people should know about gators being present, etc)

People apparently are missing WHY those points are significant... because they tie back into the issues regarding if Disney needed to make additional disclosures/warnings. And the idea of SPECIFIC risks is materially significant vs 'general problem at WDW'.

Which is why simple 'alligator reports' with nothing to clarify the risk factors associated with those reports, posters who ignore the AGE of those reports or location, are NOT conclusive to support the idea Disney was ignoring these reports and hence contributing to the problem or failing to act on concerns.
Disney has no case here though, and you know that so why keep pushing it. I get what you're saying, but whether alligator reports are true or not Disney Knew that there were dangerous sized gators in there. It's not that hard, put up a sign inform the public. If you've known all that time about gators being there you'd not be alone, but most people don't because they have no reason to. You go to a swamp, you expect it, you go to a beach on a nice lake at WDW or really any place else, most people are not going to expect it especially if you don't know that gators are going to be in every body of water.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Please search the Internet for "duty of care".
I don't think you are translating it correctly.

Please, call every hotel and resort in Florida, especially ones near any body of water, ask them if they have signs.
Call Tallahassee and ask them to explain the law to you.

I'm just trying to point out Facts.
The blame, speculation, and hysteria here is getting crazy.

Some people are trying to make it sound like there is a huge wildlife problem now. I think someone even said "epidemic". This is crazy talk. None of it is true. Not the blame, not the misunderstanding of the law, and not the people claiming this is a "new" problem.
 

EngineJoe

Well-Known Member
Someone - many, many pages back - mentioned a system of sea walls and boardwalks as a solution to the alligator threat. That's really about the only thing that will keep people really safe.
No alligator can climb fences and walk on land and run at 25 mph.
 

Daveeeeed

Well-Known Member
I just hope everyone understands that, even with all of the signs and warnings that Disney could install, it will reduce the probability of anything else happening, but not remove it completely. If guests choose to ignore all warnings, signs, fences, etc, then nothing that Disney does is going to stop them. Elimination of the issue is impossible.
Correct. It is just like if you stand on a ride and fall out it isn't Disney's fault, but that is because they have warnings, without it then even if it seems like common sense to you they may not n ow that. A place with gators that seems like a safe lace works the same way. If you know there is a danger you should warn the guests. If you go in the water and there are signs that say beware of gators, Stay out of water, then this would be a completely different story. It is meant to inform and prevent, not save the morons that don't listen.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Sea walls would work, plus it is mainly about keeping people out of the water over gators going on land.
This is insane to even suggest. Sorry.

Your entire repetitive argument is based on people not knowing about gators. I promise you that most people who have ever been attacked know that they exist in the area.
I also promise you that life goes on and people don't live in fear of an alligator attack.
We even still go in water.
 

KeeKee

Well-Known Member
True, but the odds of this happening again are so slim, but Disney had that mindset and look what happened. So in the long term, signs, and sea walls. And like you said even a boardwalk in some areas would do the trick I believe. Still though they're never going to get the kid back, I just wish Disney would've done something sooner.
Yeah, I know, but one can hope. It would complete change the theme of some areas, but it would be safe and most likely nothing like this would happen again. It would also provide a place for people to walk as well.
 

Daveeeeed

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I know, but one can hope. It would complete change the theme of some areas, but it would be safe and most likely nothing like this would happen again. It would also provide a place for people to walk as well.
Correct. They could still have a beach that just closes at night if they have signs posted. A boardwalk with lamps could be open 24/7, and it would be much safer.
 

EngineJoe

Well-Known Member
Sea walls would work, plus it is mainly about keeping people out of the water over gators going on land.
Gators have been found in he bathroom at magic kingdom and splash mountain and have come out of the ocean onto the beach at Daytona so what you propose would have minimal effect other than maybe an illusion of safety.
 

donsullivan

Premium Member
A $100 Million dollar sea wall project....and it wouldnt guarantee squat. Will never happen

It would also not surprise me if the Florida Wildlife Commission prevent such a theoretical project from happening. It's likely they would consider it too disruptive to the natural ecosystem of animals like turtles who will regularly leave the water and then go back again. All of those wildlife management issues are a part of the total discussion that has to take place with anything they do. This is not just about the alligator attack, there is a whole ecosystem involved and it's vitally important to prevent unintended consequence.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Disney has no case here though, and you know that so why keep pushing it. I get what you're saying, but whether alligator reports are true or not Disney Knew that there were dangerous sized gators in there. It's not that hard, put up a sign inform the public. If you've known all that time about gators being there you'd not be alone, but most people don't because they have no reason to. You go to a swamp, you expect it, you go to a beach on a nice lake at WDW or really any place else, most people are not going to expect it especially if you don't know that gators are going to be in every body of water.

Read the references... I'm over your "I know what you are saying, but I'm going to keep ignoring what it means" position. You are citing opinion, I'm citing legal precedent. One has weight in a legal discussion, the other does not. In the ocean case listed, it was not required for the city to warn about something simply because 'some people may not know about it'. In prior wild animal cases, again, there is no standard I've found that says "you must inform the public about mother nature because they are from out of town" and no case I've found has successfully used the "well OTHER people know, but WE didn't" as foundation for needing to warn against wild animals in their natural state.

Instead of repeating yourself ad naseum... maybe funnel that energy into finding some rulings that support your train of thought. It will be far more convincing then you simply repeating it over and over.
 

SpaceMountainUK

Active Member
Before the renovations and cabin construction began the WL had a small wall along the shore set within the water so there was no more zero entry into the lake, maybe they will go this route for the more permanent solution?
 
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