News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
EPCOT isn’t even really alluded to in the Charter. The authoritarian motivation should be incredibly upsetting, even if the District wasn’t doing much.
EPCOT the city might very well be ignored in the charter itself. But it was used extensively in the lobby to get the district established. A disingenuous act. Or, giving Disney the benefit of the doubt and presuming there was still intent to build a city, an act that should be reversed.

For the actual motivation behind the attempted repeal I have no sympathy.
 

peter11435

Well-Known Member
EPCOT the city might very well be ignored in the charter itself. But it was used extensively in the lobby to get the district established. A disingenuous act. Or, giving Disney the benefit of the doubt and presuming there was still intent to build a city, an act that should be reversed.

For the actual motivation behind the attempted repeal I have no sympathy.
If given the choice between WDW of today or EPCOT the city, the Florida legislature of 1967 would have chosen the WDW of today
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
If given the choice between WDW of today or EPCOT the city, the Florida legislature of 1967 would have chosen the WDW of today
That's actually a very nice thought experiment.

Which I shall do tomorrow during my morning shower. 💦 For now, on quick intuition, I think you might be right. But I'm not sure. Fifty-five years is a long time, the world was different back then.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
EPCOT the city might very well be ignored in the charter itself. But it was used extensively in the lobby to get the district established.

They approved it for the tourism and jobs - not because they wanted a new city. They knew they were getting a disneyland east and a promise to redevelop the property in ways that would benefit the entire area - not just disney. And for that rcid has served it’s charter well. Which is why it has received praise each time it was studied.
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
EPCOT the city might very well be ignored in the charter itself. But it was used extensively in the lobby to get the district established. A disingenuous act. Or, giving Disney the benefit of the doubt and presuming there was still intent to build a city, an act that should be reversed.

For the actual motivation behind the attempted repeal I have no sympathy.
They may have not built what the concept art showed but I would argue they did build a city just not in the prototype style. WDW has all the elements of a similar sized community out in Bettendorf
 

Karakasa

Well-Known Member
Yes we can. 😀

I understand the politics behind this all, but that's for another day. I have long since felt that no private commercial enterprise needs this level of autonomy. Call me an old-fashioned socialist hardliner.
It's hard because it's true Disney, or any corporation, shouldn't have this much power. I absolutely agree and think so. But the right thing can be being done for the wrong reason and, in the process, do more harm than good - both immediate, and as precedent. Disney should not be losing this because they used their First Amendment rights. You can't simply examine it materially outside of the political reasoning, as the reasons for it will have material effects going forward as well. It'll say: if a politician doesn't like something someone (like it or not- I sure don't- corporations are considered persons by the law) says, they can indirectly punish them for that in some other way with no backlash or checks. That sort of precedent-setting is as important in the executive branch as it is in courts or legislature - especially if the person behind it is eying the presidency.

And you certainly understand the motivation isn't proper as you said yourself. So, that's, well that. Some things can't be divorced from the politics behind them, especially when, you know, the government's involved.

There's the way it's being done, as well, and immediately saddling Floridians with 2b in extra taxes for the express upkeep of WDW's out-of-park infrastructure is... not great. I'm sure there's a way to dissolve it and make Disney foot the bill still. But it's clear DeSantis is doing this entirely as "punishment for supporting LGBT rights" reasons to show-off to his constituents and potential presidential candidacy voters, and not the "corporation oligarchy bad" reasons you or I think it should be done. So as a result, he's just going ahead and, well, doing it. It certainly mirrors a lot of the other bills he's backed, knowing they likely will get struck down in court, but looking tough on "wokeness" or what have you is more important for his ambitions.

I hope I haven't gotten too political here, incidentally, but like I said, I think this is one issue you just can't talk about without examining the politics behind it. Plenty of others around WDW that you can connect to politics but needn't bring them up, but this isn't one of them. I also hope I haven't come across as incindiary, I really am just trying to explain things as best I can, and I apologize if I seem too mean or preachy.
 

Karakasa

Well-Known Member
What power is so untoward, particularly in the context of Florida?
There's just something... I don't know, unsettling about a corporation being able to essentially have a huge level of control for an area the size of a city, and sort of subtly manipulate the voters by only letting people who agree to vote the way they want them to live there. But I'm just suspicious of corporations in general, even those whose products or art I like. In the context of Florida, I guess I wasn't really aware there were a lot of other districts like this throughout the state until this topic. I will admit that perhaps my knowledge on it isn't as much as it should be, and if I've spoken out of turn, my bad.
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
There's just something... I don't know, unsettling about a corporation being able to essentially have a huge level of control for an area the size of a city, and sort of subtly manipulate the voters by only letting people who agree to vote the way they want them to live there. But I'm just suspicious of corporations in general, even those whose products or art I like. In the context of Florida, I guess I wasn't really aware there were a lot of other districts like this throughout the state until this topic. I will admit that perhaps my knowledge on it isn't as much as it should be, and if I've spoken out of turn, my bad.
Disney jumps through hoops to develop and operate their property the same as other places. Different hoops for different places but that was the point of RCID to streamline development and speed the flow of dollars into Florida. It is not a kingdom no matter what the advertising says so they don't have carte blanche....
 

Karakasa

Well-Known Member
Disney jumps through hoops to develop and operate their property the same as other places. Different hoops for different places but that was the point of RCID to streamline development and speed the flow of dollars into Florida. It is not a kingdom no matter what the advertising says so they don't have carte blanche....
I see. It always came across to me that the tradeoff was they could build or do whatever they wanted (within Florida law) in RCID in exchange for having to pay for the water treatment and other such upkeep of infrastructure. And obviously yeah they still have to file permits but the thing is, the group filing the permits is essentially also under control of the same group approving them. But, is that not actually the case?
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
They approved it for the tourism and jobs - not because they wanted a new city. They knew they were getting a disneyland east and a promise to redevelop the property in ways that would benefit the entire area - not just disney. And for that rcid has served it’s charter well. Which is why it has received praise each time it was studied.
It is my understanding that the charter was presented by Disney as necessary to develop an experimental city with permanent residents. For tourism development - of which Florida back then posseded plenty - no autonomy of this scale is needed.

It is quite possible and perhaps plausible that even without any intention to develop a city Disney could have extracted the same concessions, for indeed the promise of extensive economic boost. But the district wasn't presented as such.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
It's hard because it's true Disney, or any corporation, shouldn't have this much power. I absolutely agree and think so. But the right thing can be being done for the wrong reason and, in the process, do more harm than good - both immediate, and as precedent. Disney should not be losing this because they used their First Amendment rights. You can't simply examine it materially outside of the political reasoning, as the reasons for it will have material effects going forward as well. It'll say: if a politician doesn't like something someone (like it or not- I sure don't- corporations are considered persons by the law) says, they can indirectly punish them for that in some other way with no backlash or checks. That sort of precedent-setting is as important in the executive branch as it is in courts or legislature - especially if the person behind it is eying the presidency.

And you certainly understand the motivation isn't proper as you said yourself. So, that's, well that. Some things can't be divorced from the politics behind them, especially when, you know, the government's involved.

There's the way it's being done, as well, and immediately saddling Floridians with 2b in extra taxes for the express upkeep of WDW's out-of-park infrastructure is... not great. I'm sure there's a way to dissolve it and make Disney foot the bill still. But it's clear DeSantis is doing this entirely as "punishment for supporting LGBT rights" reasons to show-off to his constituents and potential presidential candidacy voters, and not the "corporation oligarchy bad" reasons you or I think it should be done. So as a result, he's just going ahead and, well, doing it. It certainly mirrors a lot of the other bills he's backed, knowing they likely will get struck down in court, but looking tough on "wokeness" or what have you is more important for his ambitions.

I hope I haven't gotten too political here, incidentally, but like I said, I think this is one issue you just can't talk about without examining the politics behind it. Plenty of others around WDW that you can connect to politics but needn't bring them up, but this isn't one of them. I also hope I haven't come across as incindiary, I really am just trying to explain things as best I can, and I apologize if I seem too mean or preachy.
There's very little I disagree with. Thanks for the good read.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
It is my understanding that the charter was presented by Disney as necessary to develop an experimental city with permanent residents. For tourism development - of which Florida back then posseded plenty - no autonomy of this scale is needed.

It is quite possible and perhaps plausible that even without any intention to develop a city Disney could have extracted the same concessions, for indeed the promise of extensive economic boost. But the district wasn't presented as such.

Central Florida was essentially an empty swamp at the time, though. Florida tourism was centered around people going to the beaches.

It's basically the only reason Orlando exists as a city.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
There's just something... I don't know, unsettling about a corporation being able to essentially have a huge level of control for an area the size of a city, and sort of subtly manipulate the voters by only letting people who agree to vote the way they want them to live there. But I'm just suspicious of corporations in general, even those whose products or art I like. In the context of Florida, I guess I wasn't really aware there were a lot of other districts like this throughout the state until this topic. I will admit that perhaps my knowledge on it isn't as much as it should be, and if I've spoken out of turn, my bad.
The things the corporation de facto controls are things like the sewers. Sure, it’s something the counties could control but is it worth the time and effort for the county to control such things? What do the local governments lose by letting The District have such powers? Part of the whole problem with this ordeal is the assumption that Disney has these vast, unusual powers, being described as a sort of Vatican that implies it is outside not just local but also state purview when it is not.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
The things the corporation de facto controls are things like the sewers. Sure, it’s something the counties could control but is it worth the time and effort for the county to control such things? What do the local governments lose by letting The District have such powers? Part of the whole problem with this ordeal is the assumption that Disney has these vast, unusual powers, being described as a sort of Vatican that implies it is outside not just local but also state purview when it is not.
But if these powers are irrelevant, then why care either way? Just paint those sewers in rainbow colours 🌈 and let DeSantis take care of them from now on.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
It is my understanding that the charter was presented by Disney as necessary to develop an experimental city with permanent residents. For tourism development - of which Florida back then posseded plenty - no autonomy of this scale is needed.

The counties at the time did not have the capacity and resources to handle the kind of initiatives in front of them and they knew it. The new administrative entity would allow disney to fund and streamline the things needed. They were sold on the idea that disney wanted to be progressive and innovative and doing so within the new unit would allow those things to be done with limited exposure.

They were convinced the arrangement was beneficial to them and Florida- which is also the finding of the state supreme court case that validated the public purpose of their bond authority.

The biggest advantage and reasoning behind it all was the responsible development of what was otherwise useless land in the area along with creating opportunity for the region.

Disney had clear self serving motivation to create rcid - but they have not abused that autonomy and rcid has been well administered
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
I see. It always came across to me that the tradeoff was they could build or do whatever they wanted (within Florida law) in RCID in exchange for having to pay for the water treatment and other such upkeep of infrastructure. And obviously yeah they still have to file permits but the thing is, the group filing the permits is essentially also under control of the same group approving them. But, is that not actually the case?
If you mean under state oversight then yes both OC and RCID are ultimately policed by the state.
 

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