News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[castlecake2.0]

“Resigned”

He did! I heard he wants to spend more time with his family!

 

[drizgirl]

Tribalism…unleashed by morons.

Finally some thing we can agree on.

 

[Disstevefan1]

That’s the best way to always be right

At the end of all of this it seems highly unlikely to me that it will be tolerated that a bunch of Orange and Osceola County taxpayers end up footing the bill for municipal bonds used to pay for stuff at Disney World. It’s also highly unlikely that Disney just agrees to pay off the bonds (there’s no legal way to make them do it) and may not even be possible as some of the bonds have a clause that prohibits early redemption. The only viable solution I can see is to allow RCID to continue and/or be replaced with a similar district. Disney and the state or local counties would need to agree, but that’s a win/win for everyone.

Totally agree. If I had to guess, this will be how it plays out.
That said, we are obligated to argue about this on this thread for at least another year

 

[Disstevefan1]

@peter11435 is certainly not uninformed.

I am referring to my uninformed unconfirmed information thank you.

 

[GoofGoof]

In reality, hotel tax revenues cannot be the source of repayment even though it is a type of tax. The reason for that is because a very specific type of tax was pledged - property tax revenues. Hotel tax revenues are susceptible to economic downturn. Even if the economy tanks and housing values decline, the amount of property taxes levied doesn't decrease uess the taxing authority chooses to lower them (and they are obligated to levy enough taxes to pay the debt). If they switch the source of repayment then they are shifting the risk and increasing the odds of defaulting on the debt.

I honestly don't understand why some posters keep grasping at these straws when the suggestions are impossible. It's like people (not you) are rooting for Disney to lose and are trying to come up with ways to make it okay. The ad valorem tax bonds can only be paid with property tax revenues. The utility revenue bonds can only be paid with utility revenues. Anything else is a breach of the terms of the bonds.

That’s a valid point. The county would need to get a little creative then. So right now property taxes go to roads and schools and emergency services and other general expenses. If Orange County had to absorb a portion of the RCID bonds and they had to use property taxes to pay them down then their only choices are to raise taxes on all property owners or cut services. A third option would be to stop funding part of the existing services with property tax revenues and instead use hotel taxes. Many places use hotel tax revenues for roads or other specific projects. I assume it’s technically legal and doable.

I am not suggesting this is a good solution at all. Just that it could maybe be possible. I actually think it’s a terrible idea for the long term economy in the region.

To answer your second question I think some people want to see this play out how the Governor is spinning it. They want to see woke Disney get slapped down and pay a price for defying the king Governor of FL. Unfortunately the sponsors of this action never stopped to consider the details or logistics of the action and didn’t bother to consult experts who could have told them the potential pitfalls. So now those who want to see Disney pay a steep price for speaking up are trying to figure out a way to make this work out so nobody is hurt but Disney. Unfortunately there is no real details of a “plan” we just keep hearing that there will be a plan and that Disney will pay their fair share and it won’t hurt taxpayers. So far I haven’t seen a legitimate “plan” where that is the outcome.

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[donsullivan]

The use of the Tourist taxes is highly restricted by state regulation specifically defining how much can be used for what purpose. This was done specifically to prevent communities from using it as a piggy bank for other purposes.

TDT FAQs

www.occompt.com

Look specifically at- How is the Tourist Development Tax used?

 

[GoofGoof]

The use of the Tourist taxes is highly restricted by state regulation specifically defining how much can be used for what purpose. This was done specifically to prevent communities from using it as a piggy bank for other purposes.

TDT FAQs

www.occompt.com

Look specifically at- How is the Tourist Development Tax used?

This exactly

The only way the plan to use those tax dollars would work is if the state legislature passed something to allow it and it would be difficult to not open flood gates for every other county. It would be a major blow to the tourism industry. Also, much of the money is used to fund existing things like stadiums and convention centers so how do you stop funding those things and move money to pay off bonds. Then there’s the political contributions coming from a whole bunch of industry players that would be at risk. Money talks and state and local politicians don’t have the big donations coming in from national sources like the Governor does. They rely almost solely on those donations to run campaigns and stay in office. It’s much to risk for a political stunt.

 

[Thelazer]

I question if those money's, as used to draw folks to Florida.. Really are needed to do that. I mean, look EVERYONE knows Florida has beaches and theme parks. Is that something that needs to be advertised anymore, people would come anyways.

The point I was making, as GoofGoof points out, is that.. creatively some of these costs could be mitigated. Is it a long shot?
Yes.. no doubt..100% it's that crazy.

But I don't believe in the "stick the tax payers of orange / Osceola with the bonds" theory.
Granted I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure there ARE lawyers on both sides, being paid TONS of money right now to figure that out.

 

[peter11435]

Money talks

which is why this entire thread exists

 

[lazyboy97o]

But I don't believe in the "stick the tax payers of orange / Osceola with the bonds" theory.
Granted I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure there ARE lawyers on both sides, being paid TONS of money right now to figure that out.

It should have been figured out before legislation was passed. Lawyers are being paid tons of money because this was done without forethought and based on a complete misunderstanding of the situation.

 

[GoofGoof]

I question if those money's, as used to draw folks to Florida.. Really are needed to do that. I mean, look EVERYONE knows Florida has beaches and theme parks. Is that something that needs to be advertised anymore, people would come anyways.

The point I was making, as GoofGoof points out, is that.. creatively some of these costs could be mitigated. Is it a long shot?
Yes.. no doubt..100% it's that crazy.

But I don't believe in the "stick the tax payers of orange / Osceola with the bonds" theory.
Granted I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure there ARE lawyers on both sides, being paid TONS of money right now to figure that out.

The money goes towards things like sports stadiums and convention centers. How much money did the Super Bowl in Tampa bring in for the local economy? This is from the Orange County Convention Center website:
The award-winning Orange County Convention Center is the second largest convention facility in the United States. Each year the OCCC attracts more than 230 events to the Central Florida area. As a result, roughly 1.4 million attendees contribute approximately $2.4 billion to the area's economy each year.

That’s a lot of money and visitors to the area. Many bring their families and spend a few days at the local theme parks as well. I think people take FL tourism for granted. We are coming off a pandemic where people were not traveling as often and international travel was almost non-existent. There’s pent up demand and many people are flush with cash from Government stimulus but that won’t last. We are already seeing higher inflation shrinking disposable income, Government money has dried up and we are facing a slowing of the economy that will most likely lead to a recession. Travel and tourism is particularly susceptible to economic downturns so it’s not a great idea to assume FL tourism is too big to fail. There are many options for tourism and as demand shrinks it will become even more crucial for the state to compete.

I do agree that it seems highly unlikely that the taxpayers will just eat a 25% tax increase. The logical answer is reverse course and allow the special district to continue (Either as RCID or another similar district that does virtually the same thing). Then you don’t hurt individual tax payers, you don’t take millions away from promoting the tourism industry and your largest employer doesn’t start pulling back on investing in the state. It’s a win for all Floridians except those who value a political grudge over the economy.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

The use of the Tourist taxes is highly restricted by state regulation specifically defining how much can be used for what purpose. This was done specifically to prevent communities from using it as a piggy bank for other purposes.

TDT FAQs

www.occompt.com

Look specifically at- How is the Tourist Development Tax used?

Politicians are good at shuffling money around though, one of the selling points of legalizing MJ here was the taxes were designated to go to our struggling schools, which they do, but after they added the new MJ taxes the politicians then “reallocated” other non-MJ funds away from the schools to other projects.

So the MJ taxes do go to schools but those gains were offset by moving other tax sources away from the schools. Shady and unethical but that’s politics.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

This exactly

The only way the plan to use those tax dollars would work is if the state legislature passed something to allow it and it would be difficult to not open flood gates for every other county. It would be a major blow to the tourism industry. Also, much of the money is used to fund existing things like stadiums and convention centers so how do you stop funding those things and move money to pay off bonds. Then there’s the political contributions coming from a whole bunch of industry players that would be at risk. Money talks and state and local politicians don’t have the big donations coming in from national sources like the Governor does. They rely almost solely on those donations to run campaigns and stay in office. It’s much to risk for a political stunt.

I agree. I think a ticket tax/increased hotel occupancy fees is how the state will propose to help finance the debts incurred either by the state itself or on behalf of Orange and Osceola counties.

Since a “tourist tax” wouldn’t be perceived as a tax increase on Florida homeowners directly in the same way a property tax was this is a more palatable option for DeSantis.

I’m sure there’s be legal issues with this and it would likely start an issue with the large entertainment entities. But I don’t think legislators or the Governor care as long as they at least can insulate the voters from the impact at a prima facie level. Then when this is struck down they can always blame “woke entertainment companies” for raising middle class families property taxes.

Note: I’m speaking to this only from a political standpoint as to how this could play out. I also don’t this this is prudent policy plan or legally permissible. But it’s a short term political play.

 

[Thelazer]

Trust me, I know the OCCC well. It's a money sucking pit, the Tax money that is... place has been built, rebuilt, overbuilt and STILL charges attendee's way too much to park and way too much to exhibit there.

 

[peter11435]

I agree. I think a ticket tax/increased hotel occupancy fees is how the state will propose to help finance the debts incurred either by the state itself or on behalf of Orange and Osceola counties.

Since a “tourist tax” wouldn’t be perceived as a tax increase on Florida homeowners directly in the same way a property tax was this is a more palatable option for DeSantis.

I’m sure there’s be legal issues with this and it would likely start an issue with the large entertainment entities. But I don’t think legislators or the Governor care as long as they at least can insulate the voters from the impact at a prima facie level. Then when this is struck down they can always blame “woke entertainment companies” for raising middle class families property taxes.

Note: I’m speaking to this only from a political standpoint as to how this could play out. I also don’t this this is prudent policy plan or legally permissible. But it’s a short term political play.

Or they could have just not started this mess in the first place.

 

[ParentsOf4]

It should have been figured out before legislation was passed.

If they had figured it out before passing the legislation, they would have realized it was idiotic and wouldn’t have done it.

 

[GoofGoof]

I agree. I think a ticket tax/increased hotel occupancy fees is how the state will propose to help finance the debts incurred either by the state itself or on behalf of Orange and Osceola counties.

Since a “tourist tax” wouldn’t be perceived as a tax increase on Florida homeowners directly in the same way a property tax was this is a more palatable option for DeSantis.

I’m sure there’s be legal issues with this and it would likely start an issue with the large entertainment entities. But I don’t think legislators or the Governor care as long as they at least can insulate the voters from the impact at a prima facie level. Then when this is struck down they can always blame “woke entertainment companies” for raising middle class families property taxes.

Note: I’m speaking to this only from a political standpoint as to how this could play out. I also don’t this this is prudent policy plan or legally permissible. But it’s a short term political play.

I agree that politically it’s more palatable to taxpayers than increasing real estate taxes on everyone. There’s a reason why when cities build new sports stadiums for the billionaire owners they fund it with hotel taxes since that’s not a direct tax on the people who elected you. I also agree it may be a short term political win but if we move into a recession and the economy starts to suffer and tourism is down opponents will point to this move and place the blame on the current government. You will also have large sums of dollars from the various travel industry players looking to back candidates that support the industry. It may be easy to primary out the current elected officials with candidates that are flush with corporate cash and running on pro-business, pro-economy agendas.

FL is also facing a major housing bubble that looks primed to burst. If the real estate market flat lines and tourism is down due to a recession people will quickly abandon their support for these social issues in favor of their own wallets. It’s easy to take the booming economy for granted, but a smart leader thinks 3 steps ahead.

 

[GoofGoof]

If they had figured it out before passing the legislation, they would have realized it was idiotic and wouldn’t have done it.

This about sums up 247 pages of discussion. All these scenarios are the result of self inflicted pain. It’s not too late to reverse course which I still think is the most likely scenario.

 

[MaryJaneP]

It should have been figured out before legislation was passed. Lawyers are being paid tons of money because this was done without forethought and based on a complete misunderstanding of the situation.

Any ideas on where the "tons of money", being paid to the lawyers , is coming from. Is this a lose-lose situation? It would seem that FL taxpayers AND WDW are going to spend money that, ideally, should be spent building rather than destroying.

 

[Polkadotdress]

I agree. I think a ticket tax/increased hotel occupancy fees is how the state will propose to help finance the debts incurred either by the state itself or on behalf of Orange and Osceola counties.

Since a “tourist tax” wouldn’t be perceived as a tax increase on Florida homeowners directly in the same way a property tax was this is a more palatable option for DeSantis.

I would disagree with this, as the hotels and theme parks don’t want to do anything that could potentially drive away business. An increase hotel/ticket tax might not sit well with the general public, as they make their vacation plans.