News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Not just a lot. The majority of counties in Florida are unchartered.
Yeah, I learned that from reading the attachment from @ParentsOf4 post. I was not aware of that fact prior, but it kinda makes sense since FL has a handful of urban centers and a lot of rural counties that probably have no need for an expensive and overly bureaucratic government. It would be unlikely that the legislature would pass a bill allowing the removal and replacement of the elected officials from all unchartered counties since many of the representatives are from unchartered counties. It would be DOA no matter how much DeSantis may want it.
 

DCBaker

Premium Member
It’s behind a paywall

Here you go (I think this is the same thing Len posted about this morning) -

"Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis caused heads to spin on May 16 when he hinted that the state could be the new overseer of Walt Disney World's (NYSE: DIS) Reedy Creek Improvement District in Orlando.

Specifically, experts are curious how the state could make such moves and what kind of fallout there may be, as the Reedy Creek Improvement District area also consists of two municipalities in Bay Lake and Lake Buena Vista, where its largest 'resident' is Disney.

DeSantis was clear on his stance of not allowing local governments — Orange and Osceola counties — to take over control. "More likely, the state will simply assume control and make sure that we're able to impose the law and make sure we're collecting the taxes ... There's a whole bunch of different things that we will be able to do. I'd much rather have the state leading that effort than potentially having local governments … I'm worried that they would use that as a pretext to raise taxes on people when that's what they would want to do anyways, and then try to blame Reedy Creek. We’re not going to give them that opportunity," DeSantis said, during an event at Seminole State College while making an announcement regarding nursing education.

State officials told Orlando Business Journal, via a May 16 email, that the governor's statements at the event were his latest on the topic. Also, both Orange and Osceola counties said they were monitoring the situation.

But DeSantis' latest stance makes little sense, said Disney experts with knowledge of government workings.

"The state of Florida can't simply force a hostile takeover of two Florida cities chartered under Florida law," said Chad Emerson, a Disney expert who authored the book, Project Future: The Inside Story Behind the Creation of Disney World.

"Both of these local municipal governments are protected under Florida law. There is no legal or regulatory path for the Florida state Legislature to accomplish what they are seeking to do. Simply put, the Florida Constitution protects private businesses from big government intervention like this," he told OBJ.

One thing that 's guaranteed is that whatever DeSantis and the state of Florida come up with, it'll be distinct, said Aubrey Jewett, associate professor and assistant school director at the University of Central Florida's School of Politics, Security and International Affairs.

"We don't know for sure what the state will come up with, but it is probably safe to say that it will be unique since Reedy Creek was unique, and dissolving it as political punishment in a haphazard fashion without a plan is certainly unique," Jewett told OBJ. "That said, since we don't know the details yet, it is hard to say exactly how unique the arrangement will be."

Jewett said Disney could file a lawsuit at some point, but it may instead choose to find a way to work with the state to get most of what it had with Reedy Creek back. He said many community development districts around the state operate close to how Reedy Creek does, so it's quite possible that Disney can come away with a consolation prize of a pared-down version.

Walt Disney Co.'s Walt Disney World — the nation's largest single-site employer, with nearly 70,000 Orlando workers — has four local theme parks: Magic Kingdom, Epcot, Animal Kingdom and Hollywood Studios. Walt Disney World alone is the top generator for visitation to Orlando, with more than 50 million people going through its turnstiles in previous years — many of those repeat visitors.

Disney also owns two area water parks, Blizzard Beach and Typhoon Lagoon, as well as several themed hotels, golf courses, a camping resort, timeshare properties, a residential community called Golden Oak at Walt Disney World Resort, ESPN Wide World of Sports and the Disney Springs dining/shopping/entertainment district."
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Here you go (I think this is the same thing Len posted about this morning) -

"Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis caused heads to spin on May 16 when he hinted that the state could be the new overseer of Walt Disney World's (NYSE: DIS) Reedy Creek Improvement District in Orlando.

Specifically, experts are curious how the state could make such moves and what kind of fallout there may be, as the Reedy Creek Improvement District area also consists of two municipalities in Bay Lake and Lake Buena Vista, where its largest 'resident' is Disney.

DeSantis was clear on his stance of not allowing local governments — Orange and Osceola counties — to take over control. "More likely, the state will simply assume control and make sure that we're able to impose the law and make sure we're collecting the taxes ... There's a whole bunch of different things that we will be able to do. I'd much rather have the state leading that effort than potentially having local governments … I'm worried that they would use that as a pretext to raise taxes on people when that's what they would want to do anyways, and then try to blame Reedy Creek. We’re not going to give them that opportunity," DeSantis said, during an event at Seminole State College while making an announcement regarding nursing education.

State officials told Orlando Business Journal, via a May 16 email, that the governor's statements at the event were his latest on the topic. Also, both Orange and Osceola counties said they were monitoring the situation.

But DeSantis' latest stance makes little sense, said Disney experts with knowledge of government workings.

"The state of Florida can't simply force a hostile takeover of two Florida cities chartered under Florida law," said Chad Emerson, a Disney expert who authored the book, Project Future: The Inside Story Behind the Creation of Disney World.

"Both of these local municipal governments are protected under Florida law. There is no legal or regulatory path for the Florida state Legislature to accomplish what they are seeking to do. Simply put, the Florida Constitution protects private businesses from big government intervention like this," he told OBJ.

One thing that 's guaranteed is that whatever DeSantis and the state of Florida come up with, it'll be distinct, said Aubrey Jewett, associate professor and assistant school director at the University of Central Florida's School of Politics, Security and International Affairs.

"We don't know for sure what the state will come up with, but it is probably safe to say that it will be unique since Reedy Creek was unique, and dissolving it as political punishment in a haphazard fashion without a plan is certainly unique," Jewett told OBJ. "That said, since we don't know the details yet, it is hard to say exactly how unique the arrangement will be."

Jewett said Disney could file a lawsuit at some point, but it may instead choose to find a way to work with the state to get most of what it had with Reedy Creek back. He said many community development districts around the state operate close to how Reedy Creek does, so it's quite possible that Disney can come away with a consolation prize of a pared-down version.

Walt Disney Co.'s Walt Disney World — the nation's largest single-site employer, with nearly 70,000 Orlando workers — has four local theme parks: Magic Kingdom, Epcot, Animal Kingdom and Hollywood Studios. Walt Disney World alone is the top generator for visitation to Orlando, with more than 50 million people going through its turnstiles in previous years — many of those repeat visitors.

Disney also owns two area water parks, Blizzard Beach and Typhoon Lagoon, as well as several themed hotels, golf courses, a camping resort, timeshare properties, a residential community called Golden Oak at Walt Disney World Resort, ESPN Wide World of Sports and the Disney Springs dining/shopping/entertainment district."
Yes…sorry about that 👍🏻

I’ll also remind project:future is top 5 books ever written about Disney
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
1(c) in full reads:

(c) GOVERNMENT. Pursuant to general or special law, a county government may be established by charter which shall be adopted, amended or repealed only upon vote of the electors of the county in a special election called for that purpose.​

"Pursuant to general or special law." This is the "dark stuff" we have discussed. This potentially is a back door for the legislature to control the process of establishing a charter county.

Per the article I quoted from Associate Professor Jewett:

[Non-Charter] Counties have powers of self-government as prescribed by the state legislature.​

Let's face it. We know that RCID does not have any "real" residents. It's not like you or I can ever move into the neighborhood. The RCID residents and property owners are hand-selected by Disney. RCID really is an unusual beast.

Thus, even if Disney/RCID has its own electors and those electors vote for a board of county commissioners, their powers can be greatly curtailed by the state legislature.

Still, DeSantis' idea that he is somehow going to control how much Disney pays in taxes is just crazy. The Florida Constitution clearly states:

(a) No tax shall be levied except in pursuance of law. No state ad valorem taxes shall be levied upon real estate or tangible personal property. All other forms of taxation shall be preempted to the state except as provided by general law.​

Unambiguously, ad valorem taxes are at the county or municipality level. The State of Florida just cannot do it.
The state can’t just create a single rump county with no power of self-government or one that strips municipalities of their authority. Being able to pass laws isn’t carte blanche to do anything and everything unless prohibited by the constitution. The state legislature cannot just rewrite the rules to deny a local government its constitutionally established right of self-governance.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
1(c) in full reads:

(c) GOVERNMENT. Pursuant to general or special law, a county government may be established by charter which shall be adopted, amended or repealed only upon vote of the electors of the county in a special election called for that purpose.​

"Pursuant to general or special law." This is the "dark stuff" we have discussed. This potentially is a back door for the legislature to control the process of establishing a charter county.

Per the article I quoted from Associate Professor Jewett:

[Non-Charter] Counties have powers of self-government as prescribed by the state legislature.​

Let's face it. We know that RCID does not have any "real" residents. It's not like you or I can ever move into the neighborhood. The RCID residents and property owners are hand-selected by Disney. RCID really is an unusual beast.

Thus, even if Disney/RCID has its own electors and those electors vote for a board of county commissioners, their powers can be greatly curtailed by the state legislature.

Still, DeSantis' idea that he is somehow going to control how much Disney pays in taxes is just crazy. The Florida Constitution clearly states:

(a) No tax shall be levied except in pursuance of law. No state ad valorem taxes shall be levied upon real estate or tangible personal property. All other forms of taxation shall be preempted to the state except as provided by general law.​

Unambiguously, ad valorem taxes are at the county or municipality level. The State of Florida just cannot do it.
I think you are reading that wrong. When it says pursuant to general or special law that doesn’t mean the legislature can just do whatever they want. That is just saying that if the county government wanted to establish a charter they would have to do so based on the existing state laws and/or constitution and can only be adopted by a vote of the electors. It is not saying the legislature can stop a county from adopting an otherwise legal charter. Since RCID currently is not a county it’s not relevant today, but would be should they follow the hypothetical plan you laid out as what he may be thinking.

If you look at RCID it has very limited authorities already compared to an actual county so there isn’t much for the state to curtail. As you say it’s not a true working government in the traditional sense with schools and many homeowners and poverty and other social issues to deal with. They need the very basic authority to levy taxes, build and maintain roads and utility projects and provide emergency services. There is really no way for the legislature to pass a special law or create a statute that revokes those authorities from all unchartered districts. Because of that the only reasonable path forward is RCID remains a special district not its own unchartered county. Could there be some compromise with Disney where they agree to some concessions that keep the majority of what they value but the state saves face? I suppose so, but short of that I still don’t see a path forward. The Governor was quoted as saying “the state will simply assume control and make sure that we're able to impose the law and make sure we're collecting the taxes”. That is a true pipe dream that legally cannot happen.

By the way, I applaud your efforts to play devil’s advocate a little and attempt to figure out a legal path forward to achieve those stated goals. In the end I think the plan falls short legally speaking, but just barely. It is sometimes frightening to see how many loopholes our various levels of government have. It should be a slam dunk that something like this is not even remotely possible.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
The state can’t just create a single rump county with no power of self-government or one that strips municipalities of their authority. Being able to pass laws isn’t carte blanche to do anything and everything unless prohibited by the constitution. The state legislature cannot just rewrite the rules to deny a local government its constitutionally established right of self-governance.
You keep saying what I’m trying to say in much less words;). Good job simplifying it👍
 

lentesta

Premium Member
:

However, Sears v. Palm Beach Gardens also uses the word "substantial" (or its derivatives) 27 times. This harks back to Von Hoffman v. City of Quincy:

It is competent for the States to change the form of the remedy, or to modify it otherwise, as they may see fit, provided no substantial right secured by the contract is thereby impaired.​

Sears v. Palm Beach Gardens even gives us a definition of impairment:

impairment is defined as “to make worse; to diminish in quantity, value, excellency or strength; to lessen in power; to weaken.”​

IMO, this means that any law that would "make worse", "diminish in quantity, value, excellency or strength" would be considered a significant impairment by the Florida Supreme Court. However, since the Florida legislature hasn't even said what they will do next, I cannot yet say if this will result in an impairment. At the moment, it would seem that Orange and Osceola Counties are left holding the bag. However, DeSantis has repeatedly said they will pass more laws. I cannot say if these laws result in an impairment until I read them. :)

:

@ParentsOf4 - RCID does business with over 2,000 vendors. I'm guessing Disney has a contract with each of them.

Does the state issue a blanket "your contract is null and void" statement here, and tell the contractors to sue if they think they've been wronged? That ... seems like a recipe for full employment of Florida's legal professionals and jurists. I might be able to start and finish law school in time to ride that gravy train.

Does the state go through each contract to see what's in them? What if the state can't match the terms of the existing contracts, such as matching pay rates, overtime, health care for life, etc?
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Right but this goes back to a point I just made.

RCID isn't really a "local government" of people. Its only residents and property owners are hand-selected by Disney. They exist with RCID only to the extent that Disney lets them. RCID really is an extension of The Walt Disney Company.

There's going to be some (including potentially some in the judiciary) who don't view this as having anything to do with self-governance. This really is all about one company, a company with a questionable right to self-government. (How many other companies have their own governments?)

However...

This also is why I think Disney has an ironclad First Amendment case. By ending RCID, which really is an extension of Disney, DeSantis is punishing Disney for exercising its First Amendment rights.
This has been explained about 1,000 times at this point. You can’t go into court and make an argument on a legally established district by saying “well…it’s really Disney…”

The thing has been around for 55 years. Even if the courts in Florida try to “send a message”…that verdict gets blown outta federal courts in record time.
 

mikejs78

Premium Member
Thus, even if Disney/RCID has its own electors and those electors vote for a board of county commissioners, their powers can be greatly curtailed by the state legislature.

Not without curtailing the powers of all other uncharted districts.

Also one is forgetting that if they make RCID a county, then they are no longer part of the current counties, and therefore Disney won't pay any taxes to Orange and Osceola counties. Also counties are limited in property tax that they can collect.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Right but this goes back to a point I just made.

RCID isn't really a "local government" of people. Its only residents and property owners are hand-selected by Disney. They exist with RCID only to the extent that Disney lets them. RCID really is an extension of The Walt Disney Company.

There's going to be some (including potentially some in the judiciary) who don't view this as having anything to do with self-governance. This really is all about one company, a company with a questionable right to self-government. (How many other companies have their own governments?)

However...

This also is why I think Disney has an ironclad First Amendment case. By ending RCID, which really is an extension of Disney, DeSantis is punishing Disney for exercising its First Amendment rights.
It is a local government. It is legally distinct from Disney. That Disney is the major landowner is immaterial because it’s not a situation tied to Disney’s ownership or existence. Disney could sell all of the land tomorrow and the District would remain. Disney could be liquidated and the District would remain. Even if Disney shut down Walt Disney World and sold off the land the District would still not only exist, but still have obligations to meet.

And in Florida, other companies do get powers of self governance. They don’t necessarily get them all in one package, but they can get most of them.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Right but this goes back to a point I just made.

RCID isn't really a "local government" of people. Its only residents and property owners are hand-selected by Disney. They exist with RCID only to the extent that Disney lets them. RCID really is an extension of The Walt Disney Company.

There's going to be some (including potentially some in the judiciary) who don't view this as having anything to do with self-governance. This really is all about one company, a company with a questionable right to self-government. (How many other companies have their own governments?)

However...

This also is why I think Disney has an ironclad First Amendment case. By ending RCID, which really is an extension of Disney, DeSantis is punishing Disney for exercising its First Amendment rights.
I agree with this. That’s why a plan to convert RCID into an unchartered county won’t work. It is and should remain a special district or be dissolved. That brings us full circle back to the issue for the Gov. If RCID remains a special district there’s no legal path for the State government to seize control, levy additional taxes to the landowners and control the district. Either they leave it alone, they amend it in some way that would have to be agreed upon by the parties involved or they allow it to be dissolved and control of the assets and liabilities revert to the local counties. As you say Disney doesn’t have a right to self government but dissolving that district has consequences. Just because they have no protected right to their own “local government” doesn’t mean it wasn’t in the best interest of Disney and the state when it was conceived and has continued to be for the last 50+ years. So far in 306+ pages nobody has given us a single negative related to RCID that hurts the citizens of FL or Orange and Osceola Counties. It’s a win/win for everyone.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Not without curtailing the powers of all other uncharted districts.

Also one is forgetting that if they make RCID a county, then they are no longer part of the current counties, and therefore Disney won't pay any taxes to Orange and Osceola counties. Also counties are limited in property tax that they can collect.
There seems to be some confusion that an uncharted government is somehow specifically controlled by the state, when it just means the local government is following the base template provided by the state. For example, state law says you need to have someone who runs the county and that person is appointed by the county commission. Orange County has a charter and decided instead to elect a county mayor to fill that role. It doesn’t mean that the state is writing a law that this county does this, and that county does that.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Per the Florida Constitution, contracts transfer to whatever replaces RCID. I don’t think simply transferring these contracts is necessarily a substantial impairment. However, it might be based on what happens next. We just won't know until we see something out of the Florida legislature.

Most (all?) of what I'm writing will not actually happen. This is just an intellectual exercise because it's Friday and I bored. ;)

I'll go off in some other direction when RCID, Disney, DeSantis, or the Florida legislature give us something else to chew on. :)

Ultimately, what everyone should take away from this is that RCID (or something very close to it) will exist when all of this is over. Because of Citizens United, there's just no way Disney is going to lose this.
Contracts for different services differ. If Orange County has an agreement to pay X amount uniformly they have a problem if Reedy Creek agreed to pay Y amount.

If you accept that RCID is completely separate from Disney, then the legal argument that ending RCID somehow violates Disney's First Amendment rights becomes weaker.

DeSantis clearly has made multiple statements that he's ending RCID is response to Disney's actions. DeSantis has irrevocably linked the two. I'm pretty sure any court that handles this case will do the same.
No, it does not. The whole point was still to influence Disney’s behavior. Let’s say you run a restaurant. You adult children are in a political fight with the official who issues liquor licenses and now you are faced with losing your liquor license. There is no way it would fly for even a second that this was permissible if the official kept going on TV talking about how he is working to revoke your license because he doesn’t like what your kids are doing. The whole point is clearly to influence the behavior of your kids, to chill their protected activity.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Not without curtailing the powers of all other uncharted districts.

Also one is forgetting that if they make RCID a county, then they are no longer part of the current counties, and therefore Disney won't pay any taxes to Orange and Osceola counties. Also counties are limited in property tax that they can collect.
I don’t know if it has come up in the 3000 pages here…but orange and Osceola have - I believe - still a 6% county tax on all hotel rooms…

Not a small consideration if some fool is suggesting that reedy creek goes “poof” out of those counties
 

mikejs78

Premium Member
I don’t think simply transferring these contracts is necessarily a substantial impairment.

You keep using that term but it doesn't apply.. Substantial impairment is the federal standard. The state standard is stricter. The state doesn't allow any impairment unless there is a significant public purpose.
 

Vacationeer

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
“… I'm worried that they would use that as a pretext to raise taxes on people when that's what they would want to do anyways, and then try to blame Reedy Creek. We’re not going to give them that opportunity," DeSantis said, during an event at Seminole State College while making an announcement regarding nursing education.

Wow. Sounds very emotional. I’m worried things aren’t going well for the governor if he’s using a situation he created as pretext to raise suspicion on Disney that they’re looking for ways to dump RCID’s taxes on the citizens of Florida.
 

mikejs78

Premium Member
I'm worried that they would use that as a pretext to raise taxes on people when that's what they would want to do anyways, and then try to blame Reedy Creek. We’re not going to give them that opportunity," DeSantis said, during an event at Seminole State College while making an announcement regarding nursing education.

And this is why the whole new county thing wouldn't work. Creating a new county would remove all of the tax revenue collected from Disney by Orange and Osacola counties. They would have to raise taxes to make up that shortfall.
 

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