Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

For the moment. A Disney park is a very long term investment. They'd be insane to build one anywhere in that part of the world.

Especially when it is seen as such an "American" symbol, kind of a target.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie (can I call you Eddie, or should we keep things on a Mr. Sotto and Mr. rsoxguy level?)

I don't know if this has been asked before, but at a few hundred pages, my ability to search this thread is limited. Much time has been devoted on this forum to discussions regarding park update and upkeep. From a former imagineer's perspective, which park at WDW would you enjoy working with the most? Which do you believe would benefit the most from a new splash of creativity? (Budgets allowing, of course.)

The only "Mr.'s" are Toad, Smee and Lincoln on this thread. :animwink:

TDL is the best kept park, and your work always looks like the day it opened.

At WDW, we discussed EPCOT as having potential and it does, but I'd love to do something at MK. It would be great if they did the kind of "placemaking" program there and put the richness back in behind the facades. Store and Restaurant upgrades. Take out some of the stores that don't perform and add some things to do or see. Make Liberty Square, for example a "wow" of a land. the facades promise so much but let you down once you go inside. Beyond the rides, make the park a rich series of inbetween enhancements. They are doing some of that now in some areas with the new Mansion ending and so forth.

 

[fyn]

The only "Mr.'s" are Toad, Smee and Lincoln on this thread. :animwink:

TDL is the best kept park, and your work always looks like the day it opened.

At WDW, we discussed EPCOT as having potential and it does, but I'd love to do something at MK. It would be great if they did the kind of "placemaking" program there and put the richness back in behind the facades. Store and Restaurant upgrades. Take out some of the stores that don't perform and add some things to do or see. Make Liberty Square, for example a "wow" of a land. the facades promise so much but let you down once you go inside. Beyond the rides, make the park a rich series of inbetween enhancements. They are doing some of that now in some areas with the new Mansion ending and so forth.

Mr. Tom Morrow feels left out.

I'd love to see Liberty Square period actors out and about, or a fife and drum routine. I remember Frontierland used to have mock gun battles, with actors utilizing the 2nd floor facades and balconies. Unexpected "shows" like this kept you on your toes as you saw the park, and trained you to look for more than just the path to the next E-Ticket. Even something as small as a period dressed actress opening a 2nd floor window in Liberty Square to pat out a rug. It adds life to the facades.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Mr. Tom Morrow feels left out.

I'd love to see Liberty Square period actors out and about, or a fife and drum routine. I remember Frontierland used to have mock gun battles, with actors utilizing the 2nd floor facades and balconies. Unexpected "shows" like this kept you on your toes as you saw the park, and trained you to look for more than just the path to the next E-Ticket. Even something as small as a period dressed actress opening a 2nd floor window in Liberty Square to pat out a rug. It adds life to the facades.

Sure does...The themes seem so "played out' and cliche'd to me. They get diluted to a themed funky crate collection surrounded by all of the operational stainless steel. BTW the Imagineers have to deal with a myriad of codes and requirements too. I walk into these great immersive areas and have to look for something to suspend the disbelief beyond the first impression. DL still is pretty good that way as it's intimate already. The Hollywood Blvd. "Streetmosphere" was great and i still love that area of DHS, but the payoff is walking inside and being surprised by a space you don't want to leave. Sid Cahuenga's was like that. So much of the time you glance inside and say to yourself, "been there, bought that".

Good museums have a cursory experience that gives you the high points of what they are trying to convey, but then you can always drill deeper and satisfy your curiosity. That subtle depth has been slowly stripped away. DLP still has most of it. When the parks get crowded and the rides have long lines, the little things that entertain right in front of you mean alot as they pick up the slack.

 

[Imagineer6]

HUGE. (Actually it was backtracking TO 1890's MSUSA FROM the 1920's) I tell the story myself early in this thread. I was devastated, then angry, then betrayed, then really angry, then just depressed, but finally with squinted yellow eyes (like Old Yeller once he's diseased) moved on licking wounds. When I went on vacation (NEVER GO ON VACATION), knowing that Eisner was concerned about the 20's and that we should go back to the WDW formula, the agreement was that I would present my case in favor of it, but when I returned it was already decided as they caved and gave it all up and told him, "no problem we'll just do the WDW version." No one wanted me to go in there and fight for it with Eisner. I do get that BTW. Save budget and drama so sell out. What none of us realized at the time was that it put us a year behind the other lands so we had to move at a back breaking pace, skipping phases in drawings for YEARS to catch up and make opening. We were starting over with a year less time.

It's too bad Imagineers don't get worked like that anymore. :lol:

 

[MarkTwain]

Hi Eddie, I've been lurking a lot recently, but I thought I'd pose another question. :wave: My design team at my college just submitted our project for the 2011 ImagiNations competition, and our project was based heavily in the idea of tailor-making an E-ticket specifically for Disneyland Paris, with keeping the audience and the park's unique theming in mind. That led me to wonder, how successful do you feel that the separate lands of Disneyland Paris were in having a special appeal for European audiences, based on your own observations? Is there anything you might do differently or feel was particularly successful in winning guests over?

 

[MarkTwain]

Woops - double post.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hi Eddie, I've been lurking a lot recently, but I thought I'd pose another question. :wave: My design team at my college just submitted our project for the 2011 ImagiNations competition, and our project was based heavily in the idea of tailor-making an E-ticket specifically for Disneyland Paris, with keeping the audience and the park's unique theming in mind. That led me to wonder, how successful do you feel that the separate lands of Disneyland Paris were in having a special appeal for European audiences, based on your own observations? Is there anything you might do differently or feel was particularly successful in winning guests over?

I think they were very successful, although I have no hard data to support that. the European fan sites are not prejudicial, so I guess they like the whole thing. I was surprised at how many Europeans appreciate Main Street, the most admittedly irrelevant area of the park. I think the detail and richness won them over. The fact that they expected a carnival and got a beautiful work of passion was the key. They got permission to be a child again.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Sure does...The themes seem so "played out' and cliche'd to me. They get diluted to a themed funky crate collection surrounded by all of the operational stainless steel. BTW the Imagineers have to deal with a myriad of codes and requirements too. I walk into these great immersive areas and have to look for something to suspend the disbelief beyond the first impression. DL still is pretty good that way as it's intimate already. The Hollywood Blvd. "Streetmosphere" was great and i still love that area of DHS, but the payoff is walking inside and being surprised by a space you don't want to leave. Sid Cahuenga's was like that. So much of the time you glance inside and say to yourself, "been there, bought that".

Good museums have a cursory experience that gives you the high points of what they are trying to convey, but then you can always drill deeper and satisfy your curiosity. That subtle depth has been slowly stripped away. DLP still has most of it. When the parks get crowded and the rides have long lines, the little things that entertain right in front of you mean alot as they pick up the slack.

This seems to be a problem throughout Central Florida. The only parks that really let you take your time and fill in the gaps between the big ticket items are Disney's Animal Kingdom and SeaWorld Orlando, but much of that is exploring the various animal habitats. The parks are very lacking in small attractions like little dark rides, unique shops, small eateries, walkthroughs, etc. My favorite park down there right now is Islands of Adventure, but even it is sorely lacking in small attractions like the delightful, but hopefully not dead again, Triceratops Encounter.

But how do you justify these little touches in the climate in which these parks operate? The audience is significantly tourists who are seeking out the headliners and E-Tickets that they know, that want to "get it all done". I think this popular view of the Orlando market, in some way, has to be wrong. Islands of Adventure is only now being noticed and visited, but it was built entirely around this idea with popular, known franchises with most of the attractions falling into the range of D-Tickets and E-Tickets.

 

[HBG2]

Eddie, I don't know if you've seen THIS or commented on it. Rolly Crump is becoming more active these days (he's on Facebook, finally). His take on DL is interesting. He's very much of the mind that the smallness and intimacy of DL in comparison to the other parks is a major plus ("Disneyland hugs you"). There's been some discussion on this thread in recent days about the small size of DL's castle. For what it's worth, Rolly prefers it to the others for just that quality.

Agree with him or not, when an old-school Imagineer of that standing speaks, we all listen hard, don't we?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, I don't know if you've seen THIS or commented on it. Rolly Crump is becoming more active these days (he's on Facebook, finally). His take on DL is interesting. He's very much of the mind that the smallness and intimacy of DL in comparison to the other parks is a major plus ("Disneyland hugs you"). There's been some discussion on this thread in recent days about the small size of DL's castle. For what it's worth, Rolly prefers it to the others for just that quality.

Agree with him or not, when an old-school Imagineer of that standing speaks, we all listen hard, don't we?

I agree with Rolly (we are friends) that DL is the most intimate and to me I prefer that. It's naive scale is a huge plus. It helps with sightlines too. It was only designed to do a million a year so it's tight. It truly hugs you. DLP and other parks are designed for wider streets, etc so the design day of those parks is for 11 million or more. I was so upset to be mandated to do 10 foot wide walkways and rain canopies as it messed with the scale. As for the Castle, it is the right scale for that park. The issue we discussed was weather Walt would have rather had something larger or would have ever done anything to it. We'll never really know.

 

[rsoxguy]

Eddie,

It was mentioned a few posts up that CM's made the difference in some areas as they took an active roll in creating a more realistic atmosphere. Keeping in mind that we live in an age of electronic and technological fixation, do you think that in-park enhancements would be better served with a focus on technologically based enhancements, or would you prefer the things that you mentioned previously as "small" things [my terminology] that make big differences? Are the imagineers responsible for the CM "play acting" aspects of the parks? Is that type of big-picture detail something that the imagineers plan, along with the more grand aspects of planning?

I ask because I have always felt that WDW should never really leave a guest "alone". I have always felt that WDW was distinct from other places because of their attention to detail, and the role that CM's play in helping to create an atmosphere that takes guests beyond the feeling that they are basically alone in a park, unless they really need help from an employee. I like the ideas that you stated in your reply to my last question a few posts back (Did I say like? I meant love), and I wonder if part of the overall package would also involve more of the subtle aspects of CM entertainment and role-play.

 

[wdwmagic]

You may have heard of the passing of Collin Campbell, a talented Disney artist and 1st Generation Imagineer. Collin designed many of the background sets in Pirates at DL. He came from the studio as a background artist on 101 Dalmations among other productions.

http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_c...ceptual-artist-collin-campbell-1926-2011.aspx

I first met Collin at Gary Goddard's Company where he was quietly freelancing (as was Herb Ryman) then later at WED. Got to know him pretty well from going to the "Dinosaur lunch", an exclusive gathering of retired Disney Legends at a local watering hole. A "two drink minimum" on Thursdays. You'd try to sneak back into the office and make it through the rest of the day. Collin was a regular and Herb Ryman gifted me his seat at the table after he passed away. Campbell loved Paris and dreamed travelling Europe in a canal boat. The group loved to talk art and Europe. Once retired he got his Canal Boat and that was the last I saw of him. A soft spoken man with a great sense of humor and laugh, he did alot of good but seldom made the most noise. He once told me he designed the original POTC attraction poster, and when you look at the face of the Captain, it's him! It sits in my office today so I guess Collin is always there. We struggled together on a rendering for the 20's Main Street and we just could not get it right. He did the best he could with a design I had not fully developed. The art he did showed me the shortcomings of what we were trying to do. He was a great asset as he understood what was wrong with the design.

I used to hang out in his office and we'd chat about all kinds of things and he'd give me some pointers on art, which were always welcome. He did lots of great work on Pirates and you can find it in the original program book. We will miss you Collin! A Disney legend for sure.

Thanks for sharing Eddie. Great to hear from someone who knew him.

 

[flavious27]

This seems to be a problem throughout Central Florida. The only parks that really let you take your time and fill in the gaps between the big ticket items are Disney's Animal Kingdom and SeaWorld Orlando, but much of that is exploring the various animal habitats. The parks are very lacking in small attractions like little dark rides, unique shops, small eateries, walkthroughs, etc. My favorite park down there right now is Islands of Adventure, but even it is sorely lacking in small attractions like the delightful, but hopefully not dead again, Triceratops Encounter.

But how do you justify these little touches in the climate in which these parks operate? The audience is significantly tourists who are seeking out the headliners and E-Tickets that they know, that want to "get it all done". I think this popular view of the Orlando market, in some way, has to be wrong. Islands of Adventure is only now being noticed and visited, but it was built entirely around this idea with popular, known franchises with most of the attractions falling into the range of D-Tickets and E-Tickets.

Well IOA is only being noticed because of wwhp, universal hasn't for years done anything to increase attendance above 6 million annual guests.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie,

It was mentioned a few posts up that CM's made the difference in some areas as they took an active roll in creating a more realistic atmosphere. Keeping in mind that we live in an age of electronic and technological fixation, do you think that in-park enhancements would be better served with a focus on technologically based enhancements, or would you prefer the things that you mentioned previously as "small" things [my terminology] that make big differences? Are the imagineers responsible for the CM "play acting" aspects of the parks? Is that type of big-picture detail something that the imagineers plan, along with the more grand aspects of planning?

I ask because I have always felt that WDW should never really leave a guest "alone". I have always felt that WDW was distinct from other places because of their attention to detail, and the role that CM's play in helping to create an atmosphere that takes guests beyond the feeling that they are basically alone in a park, unless they really need help from an employee. I like the ideas that you stated in your reply to my last question a few posts back (Did I say like? I meant love), and I wonder if part of the overall package would also involve more of the subtle aspects of CM entertainment and role-play.

The best shows use technology in a way that invisibly supports what the CM is doing and does not create a contrast. In the Tiki Room the CM taps the perch and "wakes up" Jose. That adds a magical ability to the CM without making them an actor. I like that. The now extinct "Mission to Mars" Show had the CM interacting with "Mr. Johnson" the AA. The HM positions the CM's in a way that they can succeed, as "butler's" and "maids" which by their nature would not say much and can just be ominous in their silence. They have one joke and that makes them fun ("move to the DEAD center of the room"). The opposite dynamic is to have a CM spiel all the "don'ts" and then obviously presses a button and the show starts. They are not woven in, they are just a button pusher. The production value of the show is on another level and it makes the CM look like a dweeb.

The Entertainment department handles live talent but I'm not sure how much involvement WDI has in that these days. They are all one group technically, but were not in my day. The hard part is that real "actors" (Streetmosphere) are expensive so they are easily cut or only work in short bursts or weekends. That said, you don't want to rely on that to make the area work. Experiences are everything you see hear and sense. You need a mixture of static or animated displays, smells, details, upstairs window audio, etc. to make the area come alive if the actors are not there. To me, there is nothing worse than the Coke Corner Piano with a gigantic red cover over it. That tells you that it could have been fun but you came on the wrong day.

The CM's are a big part of the show and are there, so yes, you want to get them motivated, but they are not actors (the unions remind you of this so you cannot use them that way either) and can easily be overbearing if they are not well trained. Spieling and acting are different. The best example is the JC where we've taken the spiel to it's limit, but it's not predictable as to the quality of that show. The CM makes or breaks it. Today the diversity is greater so you may have heavy accents to consider as well. I was recently on the DL Monorail where the well intentioned CM gushed the whole way with his own mindless banter and would not put the mike down. You could tell that the guests just wanted out. So it's a double edged sword in a way. You want the CM's involved in a friendly way, so you design for their success, but you can't raise your expectations too high as to them carrying the show.

Remember, the hardest thing for any actor to do, is the same thing no better and no worse over and over. Hence the AA figure.

 

[RandySavage]

BTW. Over on Micechat, the Pirate portrait paintings in the queue were added in the Nineties by the DL Show quality group based on Marc Davis sketches, later Sparrow and Barbarossa were added.

Eddie, thanks for clearing that up. In the same first trip report I'm having a discussion on the Hall of Descending Blocks in the queue for Indiana Jones Adventure. Since you were an imagineer on that attraction (if memory serves) can you clarify the history of that room.

It appears that there was once an interactive effect (step on raised diamond stone and block above descends a few inches), but the effect was removed because of the danger of guests tripping over the stone. Can you confirm the existence of this feature and the reasons/timeline for its removal?

 

[redshoesrock]

I don't remember that effect, but I do remember the one that I think is in that particular corridor; pull on one of the bamboo supports and the ceiling drops a little and the lights flicker.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, thanks for clearing that up. In the same first trip report I'm having a discussion on the Hall of Descending Blocks in the queue for Indiana Jones Adventure. Since you were an imagineer on that attraction (if memory serves) can you clarify the history of that room.

It appears that there was once an interactive effect (step on raised diamond stone and block above descends a few inches), but the effect was removed because of the danger of guests tripping over the stone. Can you confirm the existence of this feature and the reasons/timeline for its removal?

I believe we did have that effect, but am not sure about the reason for it's removal.

 

[AEfx]

I believe we did have that effect, but am not sure about the reason for it's removal.

That actually brings up something I have been wondering about.

What *are* all the intended effects in there?

I just went to Disneyland for the first time last year, and of course loved Indy. Rode at least 20 times. Thing is...I couldn't find all these interactive elements people were talking about.

First I expected the queue to be massive. I grant, it is massive for Disneyland, but I was like, "Has anyone who thinks this is outrageous ever been to WDW?" LOL.

But the only thing I saw in all those times (either in FP queue or regular) was that "don't pull me" rope thing. The rest of the place was so dark I probably wouldn't have seen anything had it been there, but I just couldn't figure out any other elements that were there (besides the video show, of course).

It instantly became one of my favorite rides, but I left assuming that most effects had been turned off - or that I was really dense in not finding them even though I knew they were there.

 

[redshoesrock]

That actually brings up something I have been wondering about.

What *are* all the intended effects in there?

I just went to Disneyland for the first time last year, and of course loved Indy. Rode at least 20 times. Thing is...I couldn't find all these interactive elements people were talking about.

First I expected the queue to be massive. I grant, it is massive for Disneyland, but I was like, "Has anyone who thinks this is outrageous ever been to WDW?" LOL.

But the only thing I saw in all those times (either in FP queue or regular) was that "don't pull me" rope thing. The rest of the place was so dark I probably wouldn't have seen anything had it been there, but I just couldn't figure out any other elements that were there (besides the video show, of course).

It instantly became one of my favorite rides, but I left assuming that most effects had been turned off - or that I was really dense in not finding them even though I knew they were there.

You don't think that's an abnormally long queue? Granted I understand why it has to be that way, but man it just seems like it takes forever to get to the loading dock. Not to mention having to walk all-l-l the way back after riding.

From what I can recall, back when it first opened CMs would give you a laminated card allowing you to understand the language that the words on the walls is written in. It's easy enough to figure out on your own though if you try; each letter has a resemblance to its English equivalent (except for the letter "i", which is an "eye".) The vowels are in red, if I recall. Most of it is "blah blah blah danger, blah blah blah death."

In one of the rooms, the ceiling is being held up by bamboo supports. One of them is a bit bent and crooked. If you pull on it, the lights flicker, the ceiling begins to drop, and spikes come out. It all then resets itself a few moments later.

Next is the effect that RandySavage was talking about. If you stepped on a stone with a diamond-shaped symbol on it, a block from the ceiling would descend, seemingly only held in place by some wooden wedges (refer to the queue pictures a few posts earlier for a visual).

Finally near the end of the queue there is a well that you go around with a lid, a rope going through the lid, and a sign saying "Don't pull the rope!" When you pull it, you can hear an archaeologist down the well start yelling to stop because he's working down there. Keep yanking it and you hear him fall and splash into the water.

Also, watch for the hidden Eeyore in the back of the projection room of the queue (the show building was built on part of the Eeyore section of the old parking lot). It's a sign with wooden scaffolding.