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Do You Think They'll Ever Expand Disney Springs?

Jabroniville

New Member
Original Poster
I just had this thought while looking at the map. While it's HUGE, and has some real outliers that are almost kind of isolated (House of Blues on one end; Coke/Puck's below that; the Art Store/Rainforest Cafe up top), given how many things come and go, I wonder if there's be desire/room/interesting in an expansion. Of course they'd have to probably stick it in a parking lot and move a LOT somewhere else, but I don't know.

I assume a local or a more regular park-goer would have more insight than me, who only goes once a year and enjoys the place, but finds it could use more new blood once in a while. Is the place big enough as it is- would a new expansion ruin some of the intimacy the place still has?
 

castlecake2.0

Well-Known Member
I think the area behind cirque would be the next expansion pad. Not sure if the demand is there or not. The parking garages really changed how guests move through the space. As you mentioned the art store end is kinda giving dead mall vibes.
 

mergatroid

Well-Known Member
I assume a local or a more regular park-goer would have more insight than me, who only goes once a year and enjoys the place, but finds it could use more new blood once in a while. Is the place big enough as it is- would a new expansion ruin some of the intimacy the place still has?
It took me a while to warm to it when it changed to Disney Springs from Downtown Disney because I thought the intimacy had been lost with that change.

I remember it originally as Lake Buena Vista Shopping Village and it's various other names before it became Downtown Disney. Until they added the cinema and Pleasure Island it wasn't really something that I did but once they did it became an extra location on property to visit every trip. I remember feeling very disappointed when they destroyed a lot of trees to expand and make the West side bigger as it felt like the feeling of a place within the woods (though technically it wasn't) had gone with that huge opening then present as you headed towards it from the Studios side.

That feeling went after a few years but I definitely remember feeling the intimacy feeling gone when they started expanding it into Disney Springs. We used to regularly rent water sprites from the boating dock they used to have and pootle around and then see a movie after whereas now we tend to rent boats from The Contemporary instead.

I've got used to Disney Springs and it's size now and enjoy going though it doesn't feel as intimate as it did as Downtown Disney and I would hope that they don't expand it further. If they did realistically I would imagine it would be easiest to do it behind Cirque towards or using the Strawberry parking lot though I imagine that end gets a lot less foot traffic which wouldn't be as appealing as the other side to any would be tenants.
 
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JIMINYCR

Well-Known Member
I dont think they will be expanding. The new stores and dining spots are moving into existing spaces that were emptied. I dont see the need unless something big moves in that requires extra space. Location is prime when you are drawing in shoppers and the farther out you build the harder it is to get the foot traffic. It has to be something unique and very popular to attract enough guests in to spend their money.
 

"El Gran Magnifico"

Well-Known Member
Disney Springs was Disney’s answer to the outlet malls. If they feel there is more money to be made and tenants they can acquire then it is a possibility

I think that paid parking is coming soon. They’d put those machines in the garages and you’d key in your spot number and done.

They could also have some type of validation system whereby you spend X and parking is free.

Logistically it’s possible. But I don’t see Disney wanting to give any money back.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
I'm surprised they don't have some kind of fee for parking over a certain number of hours now (which would have also fixed the apparent problem of people parking there for the parks).

There are multiple places here in Atlanta where, e.g., 2 hours of parking is free and then there's an hourly cost after. 2 hours probably isn't enough for Disney Springs, but they could do 4 which would give people plenty of time to eat and do some shopping. I don't know how many people actually stay there longer than 4 hours, though--if almost no one does then it would be kind of a waste of everyone's time to add a fee.
 

Jabroniville

New Member
Original Poster
I think the area behind cirque would be the next expansion pad. Not sure if the demand is there or not. The parking garages really changed how guests move through the space. As you mentioned the art store end is kinda giving dead mall vibes.
One issue with the Springs, I think, is that there's only a few ways in vs. like... a mall or normal shopping district, where there are dozens. The only way to walk in on the top side by the Art Store is via the hotel across the street (I think there's another garage right there, too).
 

donsullivan

Premium Member
Disney Springs was Disney’s answer to the outlet malls. If they feel there is more money to be made and tenants they can acquire then it is a possibility

I think that paid parking is coming soon. They’d put those machines in the garages and you’d key in your spot number and done.

They could also have some type of validation system whereby you spend X and parking is free.

Logistically it’s possible. But I don’t see Disney wanting to give any money back.
Disney does not own the garages, they are owned by the district. I'm pretty sure the bonds that were issued by RCID (now CFTOD) to build the garages have a restriction that prevents them from charging for use of the garages because they were built with tax free municipal bonds. The garages have to remain free to the public.
 

Jabroniville

New Member
Original Poster
I dont think they will be expanding. The new stores and dining spots are moving into existing spaces that were emptied. I dont see the need unless something big moves in that requires extra space. Location is prime when you are drawing in shoppers and the farther out you build the harder it is to get the foot traffic. It has to be something unique and very popular to attract enough guests in to spend their money.
yeah, people mentioned in another threat that Wolfgang Puck's was badly hurt by the bus stop moving, so people weren't walking by as much... checking out the DS map, I see a lot of "out there" spaces and dark corners, and an expansion would probably create an EXTRA "dark corner" unless it was itself a MASSIVE draw.

Rainforest Cafe/Art of Disney/Goofy's Confectionary is VASTLY quieter than the entire rest of the Springs because it's just so far away from all the transit and big shops. Which to me gives it a fun intimate feel but is probably not the best if you're a store trying to attract tenants, haha. At least Art of Disney and the portrait store are the "come here just for that" bits.
 

"El Gran Magnifico"

Well-Known Member
Disney does not own the garages, they are owned by the district. I'm pretty sure the bonds that were issued by RCID (now CFTOD) to build the garages have a restriction that prevents them from charging for use of the garages because they were built with tax free municipal bonds. The garages have to remain free to the public.

 

JIMINYCR

Well-Known Member
yeah, people mentioned in another threat that Wolfgang Puck's was badly hurt by the bus stop moving, so people weren't walking by as much... checking out the DS map, I see a lot of "out there" spaces and dark corners, and an expansion would probably create an EXTRA "dark corner" unless it was itself a MASSIVE draw.

Rainforest Cafe/Art of Disney/Goofy's Confectionary is VASTLY quieter than the entire rest of the Springs because it's just so far away from all the transit and big shops. Which to me gives it a fun intimate feel but is probably not the best if you're a store trying to attract tenants, haha. At least Art of Disney and the portrait store are the "come here just for that" bits.
Also you are in Disney and the guests from the resorts and nearby hotels that are going to Disney who enter DS will be shopping mostly for Disney merch and food. It does amaze me that people will buy from some of the non Disney stores while at Disney when they have those shops or similar ones in their home areas. The Coke store, the Lego store, and a couple of others are unique enough to draw people in.
The locals that come in for dining and entertainment, how much are they shopping?
 

SSH

Well-Known Member
When they do the annual tree hunt each holiday season, it's great to see it boost traffic through some of the dead zones. It's a clever marketing tool to keep people moving through every inch and corner of DS, vs just the main arteries and livens up the entire area.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Disney does not own the garages, they are owned by the district. I'm pretty sure the bonds that were issued by RCID (now CFTOD) to build the garages have a restriction that prevents them from charging for use of the garages because they were built with tax free municipal bonds. The garages have to remain free to the public.
It was just a promise made to settle negative publicity. There are plenty of municipal facilities in the state that charge for use.
 

donsullivan

Premium Member
It was just a promise made to settle negative publicity. There are plenty of municipal facilities in the state that charge for use.
The explicit phrase used in the legal documentation between the parties defines the garages as properties "upon which Licensor [the District] operates the free public parking structures commonly known as...".[]
The foundational mechanisms that establish this free parking rule are codified through the following legal frameworks:

1. The Federal "Private Business Use" Test (Internal Revenue Code § 141)
The bonds used by the Reedy Creek Improvement District (RCID) to fund the garages were tax-exempt governmental bonds. Under Section 141 of the Internal Revenue Code, a bond loses its tax-exempt status if it meets the Private Business Use Test.
  • The Rule: No more than 10% of the bond proceeds can be used for any "private business use."
  • The Application: If RCID or Disney charged a fee to park, or if Disney controlled who could enter, the garage would be legally classified as a private commercial parking lot serving Disney's private businesses (its tenants and stores).
  • The Language: To keep the tax exemption, the bond covenants mandate that the project serves a "general public purpose." Under federal tax rules, a municipality providing standard infrastructure (like a public road or a public park-and-ride lot) cannot restrict it or monetize it for a specific private entity.

2. The Interlocal and License Agreements
Because the district owns the land and structures, but Disney operates the surrounding theme parks and shopping complexes, specific operational agreements had to codify this arrangement. In the district's board packets and property agreements, the structures are contractually bound to this exact public
What happens if they try to charge?
If the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District (CFTOD) or Disney decided to start charging for parking tomorrow, it would immediately trigger a "remedial action" or tax event under IRS regulations. The IRS would retroactively declare the multi-million dollar bond issue to be "taxable private activity bonds."
This would force the district to pay staggering financial penalties, refinance the debt at significantly higher taxable interest rates, or force investors to pay back-taxes on the interest they earned—effectively violating the legal promises (covenants) made to bondholders when the debt was sold.

Key Terms and Conditions of the Garages Bonds

Bond FeatureTerms & Covenants
Public Purpose & Free ParkingTo maintain federal tax-exempt status, the garages must serve a valid "public purpose" (such as easing public traffic congestion). Consequently, the bond covenants include restrictions that prevent the district or Disney from charging the public for standard self-parking, keeping it complimentary.
Financing StructureThe infrastructure was financed through tax-free municipal bonds. Using a government entity allowed Disney to bypass paying sales tax on construction materials and secure lower interest rates.
Debt Backing & RepaymentThe obligations are Ad Valorem Tax bonds, secured by an irrevocable lien on the property taxes collected within the district. Because Disney owns the vast majority of the land, Disney effectively pays the taxes that service this debt (roughly $58 million annually across total district bond debt).
State Covenants & Dissolution ProtectionUnder the original 1967 Reedy Creek Act and the bond agreements, the State of Florida pledged not to alter or limit the district’s powers or impair the rights of bondholders until all debt and interest are fully paid off and discharged.
 
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yaksplat

Well-Known Member
I think they need to do more to bring back some the charm of the original portion. The World of Disney has lost it all, becoming a sterile, generic warehouse style store. Other than the restaurants, we rarely go through the new portion of Disney springs. It's just like any other outlet mall, but without outlet prices.

This was peak WDW village marketplace
1788351813144.png
 

Jabroniville

New Member
Original Poster
I think they need to do more to bring back some the charm of the original portion. The World of Disney has lost it all, becoming a sterile, generic warehouse style store. Other than the restaurants, we rarely go through the new portion of Disney springs. It's just like any other outlet mall, but without outlet prices.

This was peak WDW village marketplace
View attachment 941412
I'd love to see some pictures of the original World of Disney. I loved the old Disney Store "overly themed" style- it's kitschy but that's kind of the POINT of Disney. See the current memes about how awful McDonald's currently looks in its "gray slate" era and amplify that to when DISNEY Starts doing it. I wanna see garish! I wanna see stuff crammed into every section of the store!

I was disappointed my last couple trips so see that the racks devoted to each Disney Princess were gone- they used to have large placards of each character and beneath it would be their themed costumes/clothing. The characters was the entire point of Disney!

WoD used to be the biggest thing I went to on each trip to DS- like a Disney Store on steroids. But I found that, despite having NO Disney Stores anymore and desperately missing them, this didn't really scratch that itch anymore?

In that pic... was that small island with the trees where Pleasure Island/the current Paddlefish/Boathouse area at?
 

donsullivan

Premium Member
I'd love to see some pictures of the original World of Disney. I loved the old Disney Store "overly themed" style- it's kitschy but that's kind of the POINT of Disney. See the current memes about how awful McDonald's currently looks in its "gray slate" era and amplify that to when DISNEY Starts doing it. I wanna see garish! I wanna see stuff crammed into every section of the store!

I was disappointed my last couple trips so see that the racks devoted to each Disney Princess were gone- they used to have large placards of each character and beneath it would be their themed costumes/clothing. The characters was the entire point of Disney!

WoD used to be the biggest thing I went to on each trip to DS- like a Disney Store on steroids. But I found that, despite having NO Disney Stores anymore and desperately missing them, this didn't really scratch that itch anymore?

In that pic... was that small island with the trees where Pleasure Island/the current Paddlefish/Boathouse area at?
Here are a few satellite images I've dug up over the years that show a bit of the evolution to best understand the relative locations as things developed.

1973 when only the original resort (now long gone and replaced) was under construction and no Disney Village at all
dtd_1973 Large.jpeg


1974- Original Disney Village Marketplace under construction
dtd_1974 Large.jpeg


1978- Village Marketplace all built out including the Empress Lilly
dtd_1978 Large.jpeg


1990- Pleasure Island and AMC Theaters added and Team Disney Orlando under construction as well as Typhoon Lagoon added.
dtd_1990 Large.jpeg


1997- West Side development underway
dtd_1997 Large.jpeg


2002- West Side including Cirque all done and most of the original resort gone.
dtd_2002 Large.jpeg


2008- Saratoga Springs Done
dtd_2008 Large.jpeg


2012- A little more color but still before the garage construction began. Last one I have in this set.
dtd_2012 Large.jpeg
 
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