News Disney World Earmarks 80 Acres for Affordable Housing

roj2323

Well-Known Member
Oh yes, we've gone down the "living wage" rabbit hole on these boards many times before.

Always comes to the same place - the market pays you for the skills/value you provide.

If your employer is not paying you that, leave for a job who will. Problem solved.

If another job also won't pay you the wage you seek, it just proves your current wage is the market value for your skills. Problem solved.
I adamantly disagree with you for a multitude of reasons but I will leave the politics on Reddit where it belongs.
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
To be crude, Flamingo Crossing is for the poors, not the respectable office workers. That’s part of the problem, we don’t integrate varieties of housing in the US, we segregate and isolate.
Don't integrate or actually residents fight like heck that this does not happen
( ie - when single family homes find out affordable housing apts or apts in general being built in their neighborhood ). The reality is when the lower income folks move in, the current residents fight to not let it happen sometimes to their success. The big concern is property values, crime and violence issues to name a few.
 
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thomas998

Well-Known Member
The people I'm talking about in particular are trainers and coordinators. This isn't just in your words"entry level" jobs. There's people who work in the parks that have been there for 10+ years. It's their career. Regardless, ANYONE who works 40+ hours a week regardless of their job should not have to rely on other people to have a roof over their head. It's called a Living wage.
Minimum wage is a living wage, it just depends on what you consider a necessity and what is not. Not saying I would enjoy living on a minimum wage job but it would be possible I would just have to cut a lot of things out of my lifestyle and live in a much smaller place. The real problem when people throw around the term "living wage" is it really has no meaning because what is a living wage to one person could be living high on the hog to another or not even paying for the daily spa visits for another. For me the term "living wage" is the most pointless thing in the world.
 

WDWJoeG

Well-Known Member
Minimum wage is a living wage, it just depends on what you consider a necessity and what is not. Not saying I would enjoy living on a minimum wage job but it would be possible I would just have to cut a lot of things out of my lifestyle and live in a much smaller place. The real problem when people throw around the term "living wage" is it really has no meaning because what is a living wage to one person could be living high on the hog to another or not even paying for the daily spa visits for another. For me the term "living wage" is the most pointless thing in the world.
As a long-time business owner (both private and working within in public companies) it is truly one of the silliest arguments. I have hired/paid literally thousands of workers from entry level to executive.

You are worth what the market will bear for your skills.

Now, if your skills are so limited and demand is so low for them that an employer is forced to pay you that lowest wage possible, well, you may want to take a huge step back and look in the mirror.

And when you ask for specifics of what is this magical wage for a popcorn vendor, Tiki Room lead, "trainer", or "coordinator", it gets eerily quiet.

Then we layer on the personal life choices of the employee that has nothing to do with the employer and question if there is a different "living wage" for a father of four with a house, a single mom with two kids, a teenager still living in his parents' house just doing this for spending money, etc, etc.?

What is the "living wage" for each of them?

And if they're in a union, well, blame your fellow union employees for accepting the contract.

It all gets impractical and ridiculous very fast.

Again, learn more skills, make yourself more valuable in the marketplace, get paid more. It's really that simple.

And if this "trainer" is SO amazing and skilled, one of the dozens of other hospitality companies in Orlando would kill to have them in this market.

And again, if nobody else values their skills to this magical number they have envisioned, well, there's your answer.

(And before you start to climb on that high horse, I worked in minimum wage jobs and was in unions)
 
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networkpro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
.

And again, if nobody else values their skills to this magical number they have envisioned, well, there's your answer.

That's the salient point that many who go to college miss quite spectacularly. The institutions will gladly indoctrinate you in whatever field you choose, but that doesn't mean that employers will value it or even pay them sufficiently to pay it off in a few years.
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
As a long-time business owner (both private and working within in public companies) it is truly one of the silliest arguments. I have hired/paid literally thousands of workers from entry level to executive.

You are worth what the market will bear for your skills.

Now, if your skills are so limited and demand is so low for them that an employer is forced to pay you that lowest wage possible, well, you may want to take a huge step back and look in the mirror.

And when you ask for specifics of what is this magical wage for a popcorn vendor, Tiki Room lead, "trainer", or "coordinator", it gets eerily quiet.

Then we layer on the personal life choices of the employee that has nothing to do with the employer and question if there is a different "living wage" for a father of four with a house, a single mom with two kids, a teenager still living in his parents' house just doing this for spending money, etc, etc.?

What is the "living wage" for each of them?

And if they're in a union, well, blame your fellow union employees for accepting the contract.

It all gets impractical and ridiculous very fast.

Again, learn more skills, make yourself more valuable in the marketplace, get paid more. It's really that simple.

And if this "trainer" is SO amazing and skilled, one of the dozens of other hospitality companies in Orlando would kill to have them in this market.

And again, if nobody else values their skills to this magical number they have envisioned, well, there's your answer.

(And before you start to climb on that high horse, I worked in minimum wage jobs and was in unions)
Perhaps if corporations and those at the top weren't spending a fortune to ensure that they can pay employees as little as possible, more people would agree with you.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
That's the salient point that many who go to college miss quite spectacularly. The institutions will gladly indoctrinate you in whatever field you choose, but that doesn't mean that employers will value it or even pay them sufficiently to pay it off in a few years.
It isn't even an issue if the"indoctrinate" the student. The problem is that colleges don't provide pertinent information to students concerning the viability of a career based on a degree the student goes after. I still remember my undergrad graduation where the program had us all grouped by majors. One of the largest groups was English Lit... Why? It is one of the most pointless degrees when it comes to finding a job, but the college made lots of money from students getting it. Most of the ones I knew that were getting the degree all had the same goal... they wanted to be professors teaching English Lit... Yet none of them bothered to consider that there is always a limited number of positions for those jobs and once a person has that job then it is basically unavailable for decades until the person retires.... But good lord no one ever bothered to lay out the facts for these idiots so they all ended up with degrees that didn't position them for jobs... They were perfectly trained to be cab drivers and fastfood workers. And sadly from watching my daughter entering college, nothing has changed and universities still don't mention the viability of the degrees.

I doubt it will ever change unless the government gets out of the student loan business and colleges have to make loans directly to students... maybe then when they colleges realize that if Bill or Mary can't find a job with their basket weaving degree that the college won't ever get paid back... Maybe, just maybe the colleges would focus on what kind of a graduate they churn out instead of happily churning out anything and everything.
 

Joffrey

Active Member
To be crude, Flamingo Crossing is for the poors, not the respectable office workers. That’s part of the problem, we don’t integrate varieties of housing in the US, we segregate and isolate.
People self segregate where they live based on a lot of different criteria; affluence, age, religion, culture, lifestyles, etc.

College kids don't want to live in a neighborhood full of old folks who go to bed at 9pm. People who take meticulous care of their property don't want to live in neighborhood with waist high weeds and cars parked on the front lawn. People who love the outdoors and personal space don't want to live in a downtown apartment. People who love the vibe of downtown don't want to live in the boonies.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to live next to people who share your interests and away from people who don't share your interests.
 

WDWJoeG

Well-Known Member
I doubt it will ever change unless the government gets out of the student loan business and colleges have to make loans directly to students... maybe then when they colleges realize that if Bill or Mary can't find a job with their basket weaving degree that the college won't ever get paid back... Maybe, just maybe the colleges would focus on what kind of a graduate they churn out instead of happily churning out anything and everything.
Ding ding ding! That's the foundation of the entire scam - government loans propping up the colleges so they can charge exorbitant tuition that is funded by the taxpayers when they default (or as pitched even more blatantly now to just "erase" their debt).

If the colleges had to extend the loans, take the losses, etc the price of college would plummet. The supply/demand is completely upset by government's involvement.

When I toured colleges with my kids, I heard many times "Don't worry about the cost, there is money available!!!"

As somebody who actually paid the full cost out of my pocket, it was insulting to say the least.

Wheeeeee!!!! Useless degrees all around!!!!
 
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Joffrey

Active Member
I’m not taking about self segregation. I’m talking about it being illegal to build a variety of housing typologies over huge swaths of area.
Isn't there a ton of mixed housing (apartments, townhomes, 55+, single family) all over Horizon West in close proximity to each other? In fact, Independence has all of those (maybe not 55+) in one neighborhood.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Isn't there a ton of mixed housing (apartments, townhomes, 55+, single family) all over Horizon West in close proximity to each other? In fact, Independence has all of those (maybe not 55+) in one neighborhood.
There are more varieties than just that. Those things are also usually separated even when near each other. A few developments here and there also don’t negate the larger pattern.
 

Joffrey

Active Member
There are more varieties than just that. Those things are also usually separated even when near each other. A few developments here and there also don’t negate the larger pattern.
I guess I'm not following exactly what you'd like to see. Could you give an example of what you would classify as "integrated variety"? What would you like to see if you were designing a new area?
 

Next Big Thing

Well-Known Member
Disney should really work with Lynx (Orlando's public bus system) to create a bus stop in Flamingo crossing.

The busses for DCP should also come over this way after picking up CP's. This would allow them to have two stops for the bus and it wouldn't have to be an extra charge for a bus stopping there since it's a combined bus. There would be a lot less busses that come to this complex, but they need to come back here for DCP anyway so why not just service this complex as well?

CP's currently pay $~800/month so it'll be interesting what these cost. My hope is that these will be fixed cost meaning they can't jack the prices up on you after you sign your lease, but i'm not optimistic prices won't see increases slowly as the years go on.
 

Next Big Thing

Well-Known Member
Isn't there a ton of mixed housing (apartments, townhomes, 55+, single family) all over Horizon West in close proximity to each other? In fact, Independence has all of those (maybe not 55+) in one neighborhood.
Horizon West is unincorporated, which is very likely why.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I guess I'm not following exactly what you'd like to see. Could you give an example of what you would classify as "integrated variety"? What would you like to see if you were designing a new area?
It’s not about a singular, exact pattern of development, it’s about allowing a variety not just initially but also in the future. Why would it be so horrible to have duplexes mixed in with single family homes? Or even small apartment buildings that would not be too much bigger than some McMansions? Why make everything dead ends so that all traffic from multiple developments has to go to a few roads that get bogged down with all the traffic?
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
Regardless, ANYONE who works 40+ hours a week regardless of their job should not have to rely on other people to have a roof over their head. It's called a Living wage.
Agreed. It’s really quite simple.
If your employer is not paying you that, leave for a job who will. Problem solved.
Many are... that’s why the service industry is suffering. It’s why Disney has a shortage of employees that is affecting the bottom line of the parks and resorts.
teenager still living in his parents' house just doing this for spending money,
A teenager would still be in school and not legally allowed to work 40 hours per week most likely.
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
People self segregate where they live based on a lot of different criteria; affluence, age, religion, culture, lifestyles, etc.

College kids don't want to live in a neighborhood full of old folks who go to bed at 9pm. People who take meticulous care of their property don't want to live in neighborhood with waist high weeds and cars parked on the front lawn. People who love the outdoors and personal space don't want to live in a downtown apartment. People who love the vibe of downtown don't want to live in the boonies.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to live next to people who share your interests and away from people who don't share your interests.
If people ( college age or not ) self segregate to satisfy their desires then don't cry wolf when financial issues happen. If one chooses to make their own bed, they better be prepared to sleep in it. In our younger days we had lived in less than ideal surroundings ( by choice ) , to save for a house etc.
 

WDWJoeG

Well-Known Member
Many are... that’s why the service industry is suffering. It’s why Disney has a shortage of employees that is affecting the bottom line of the parks and resorts.
Then the supply/demand system is working perfectly. In order to fill their positions, Disney will have to raise wages for those with the skills they need.

Again, if your current employer doesn't pay you what you think you are worth, go to one that will.

Either you get your expected wage or the market has told you that your skills are not worth what you believe. Period.

Disney (and any other employer) will pay for those skills as they value them. If the market cost for a particular skill goes up due to demand (like healthcare during Covid or due to artificial short-term supply issues caused by government checks), they will pay more.

But pretending an employer must pay some mythical "living wage" to every person regardless of their skills, market demand/value of the position, or that individual's personal choices/living situation is nonsensical.
 
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