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Disney not subject to Anaheim’s ‘living wage’ ballot measure, judge rules - OCR/SCNG

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
Thank you. I'm baffled why it's so hard for so many in this thread to say that.

The problem there is if you pay 18 year olds $23 per hour to be a busboy or a churro vendor or a Golden Zephyr ride operator or Mad Hatter cashier, you just blew past the current starting wages for trained chefs and pastry chefs, plus tree pruners, and dozens of other skilled and semi-skilled jobs.

So now the trained pastry chef gets how much per hour if the busboy is getting $23 per hour? $28 per hour instead of the current starting wage for pastry chef's of $20?

Realizing that the boiler mechanic currently starts at $28 per hour, what do you pay that licensed and trained journeyman mechanic if the pastry chef now gets $28 because the busboy gets $24?

And on and on and on.

There's just no way Disneyland stays in business if it starts paying unskilled teenage busboys $23 per hour. And if they did, they'd get rid of almost all of the busboys. Plus a lot of pastry chef's at $28 per hour, and mechanics at $34 per hour, electricians at $39 per hour, etc., etc.

Or ticket prices jump to $250, this has always been the argument with massive labor increases, everything has to be paid for. For every action there’s a reaction.

Disney can absolutely afford to pay their employees more but anyone who thinks they will decrease profits to do it is deluding themselves. Those costs will be directly pushed onto us and those raises will come directly out of our wallets.

We all love CMs so most of us would pay more for them to get paid more, at some point it becomes so unaffordable we just can’t go anymore though. Then no one wins, we lose the parks we love and the CMs end up unemployed making $0 an hour.

If every dollar raise adds $2 to the ticket price it can only go so high before it prices out too many people. A $4 raise (to $18 an hour) adds $8 to the ticket price, most people will grumble but still pay it, a $10 raise adds $20 to the ticket price, suddenly the price for a family of 4 just got substantially higher. There’s a point it becomes unsustainable.
 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
I'm a non-Bernie supporter who lives in Vermont. He is nothing if not inconsistent. Barely two years ago, he was on stage at a public forum yelling about how nurses don't get paid enough for what they do. I don't completely disagree with him on this count, although I didn't agree with his proposed solution, which is always, make someone else pay.

Flash forward to the present day, and we have a severe shortage of in-patient nurses working in Vermont hospitals. COVID largely underlies the reason, although not always directly. Some nurses simply couldn't handle the physical and emotional stress of working long, overburdened shifts in PPE all day. Some found that the increased costs and unpredictable need for childcare largely consumed most of their salary and it was just made more economic sense for one parent to stay home in their families. And not an insignificant number quit their in-patient jobs for much more lucrative traveling nurse positions. Bernie being Bernie didn't acknowledge that many of these nurses were responding to market forces that much better fit their individual needs, like the higher pay he previously yelled about. No, the villains here are the private nursing agencies "poaching" staff, and the "high cost of childcare". The latter is a legitimate problem, but like everything, he views the situation as some David vs. Goliath struggle ("Big Child Care"?), when more rationally, the situation is thousands of little Davids acting in what they consider their own best interests.

Bernie Sanders is a very funny man, especially to see his political and policy positions change with the wind every few years.

But never under-estimate the ability of a Socialist to blame someone else for everything.

On the bright side, at least you live in Vermont! It's a gorgeous corner of the country!
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
We all love CMs so most of us would pay more for them to get paid more, at some point it becomes so unaffordable we just can’t go anymore though. Then no one wins, we lose the parks we love and the CMs end up unemployed making $0 an hour.

What I find most interesting is the CM unions and their apparent inablity to pressure Disney to improve the working conditions for the front-line hourly CM's.

We've all heard the stories and read the reports of CM backstage misery;
  • parking at satellite lots is a nightmare that sucks up vast amount of time and patience
  • the cafeteria food service is a soul-crushing experience of high priced grease bombs served in grimy dining rooms
  • Lack of on-site CM amenities, especially glaring in today's labor environment; no child care, no fitness center, no life coaching, etc.
  • Airless break rooms with metal chairs and tables, not a soft or welcoming surface in sight. Or even a plant.
There are a few recent bright spots, like the college tuition program, but the day-to-day experience of being a CM seems miserably inadequate in today's world of lavish corporate campuses and fawning employee perks.

I think entry-level CM's should be paid a few bucks over minimum wage. But why don't the unions go after the soft products that would improve the CM's daily work experience? The unions at Disneyland seem stuck in 1962, and completely unaware and unable to fight for 21st century amenities for CM's.

And the CM's have to pay dues money to the unions for that? I'd be furious.
 
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Sailor310

Well-Known Member
I was watching the video of them putting up the Christmas tree on Main Street. They interviewed a guy who had been doing window decoration for 46 years. Before this whole string, I would have thought, 'how great is that? Faithful employee. Must be making a pretty good salary after 46 years.' Now, I think, 'poor guy. How has he been living all these years on Disney pay?'
 
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SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
I watching the video of them putting up the Christmas tree on Main Street. They interviewed a guy who had been doing window decoration for 46 years. Before this whole string, I would have thought, 'how great is that? Faithful employee. Must be making a pretty good salary after 46 years.' Now, I think, 'poor guy. How has he been living all these years on Disney pay?'

By contrast, I know someone who started in entertainment on in the early '90s moved up in entertainment over the years, and now has an office in TDA and is in senior management for operations. Really delightful to chat with, very positive, and an incredibly professional individual

I also met a bunch of people who have been in attractions, custodial, etc. Working the same job for 20+ years. Honestly some of the most bitter, miserable people I met working there were two custodial cm's who had been working there for decades. They were always complaining about something about Disney in the break area (and somehow always managed to be taking a break when I was). Like eventually if you hate your job that much find something else.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
By contrast, I know someone who started in entertainment on in the early '90s moved up in entertainment over the years, and now has an office in TDA and is in senior management for operations. Really delightful to chat with, very positive, and an incredibly professional individual

I also met a bunch of people who have been in attractions, custodial, etc. Working the same job for 20+ years. Honestly some of the most bitter, miserable people I met working there were two custodial cm's who had been working there for decades. They were always complaining about something about Disney in the break area (and somehow always managed to be taking a break when I was). Like eventually if you hate your job that much find something else.

And to those who move on, you can still enjoy Disney...

 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
I was watching the video of them putting up the Christmas tree on Main Street. They interviewed a guy who had been doing window decoration for 46 years. Before this whole string, I would have thought, 'how great is that? Faithful employee. Must be making a pretty good salary after 46 years.' Now, I think, 'poor guy. How has he been living all these years on Disney pay?'

Depending on his position he may be making pretty good money. There’s a big difference in skills/talent required to be in maintenance, or holiday services, etc, and selling a churro. One is likely getting minimum wage, one is likely getting skilled labor rates.
 

SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
Depending on his position he may be making pretty good money. There’s a big difference in skills/talent required to be in maintenance, or holiday services, etc, and selling a churro. One is likely getting minimum wage, one is likely getting skilled labor rates.

This is true. They were hiring an attractions maintenance person at $28 an hour a month or two ago. Not bad hourly for a full time position.
 

Sailor310

Well-Known Member
Depending on his position he may be making pretty good money. There’s a big difference in skills/talent required to be in maintenance, or holiday services, etc, and selling a churro. One is likely getting minimum wage, one is likely getting skilled labor rates.
I would hope so. But I keep referring back to the 2018 study:

More than half (52%) of Disneyland Resort employees who have worked there for more than 15 years still earn less than $15 an hour, as shown in Exhibit 2. More than one in 10 employees who have worked at Disneyland Resort for over 15 years earn less than $11 an hour. Even among full-time employees who have worked at Disneyland Resort for more than 15 years, over half (54%) earn less than $15 an hour and 13% earn less than $11 an hour.

I guess that this implies that 48% of employees with more than 15 years make more than $15 an hour. This study was trying to make a worst case for the union. It would be nice to see some of the BEST case folks.
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I would hope so. But I keep referring back to the 2018 study:

More than half (52%) of Disneyland Resort employees who have worked there for more than 15 years still earn less than $15 an hour, as shown in Exhibit 2. More than one in 10 employees who have worked at Disneyland Resort for over 15 years earn less than $11 an hour. Even among full-time employees who have worked at Disneyland Resort for more than 15 years, over half (54%) earn less than $15 an hour and 13% earn less than $11 an hour.

I guess that this implies that 48% of employees with more than 15 years make more than $15 an hour. This study was trying to make a worst case for the union. It would be nice to see some of the BEST case folks.

Remember, the CM's were advised by the Union to only declare the wages from Disney, and to specifically not mention any Tip Money received.

I had to laugh when senior bartenders from Trader Sam's spoke at the City Council as to how little they made in wages with a straight face!

I know they make over $100 a hour in tips on a good night.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Remember, the CM's were advised by the Union to only declare the wages from Disney, and to specifically not mention any Tip Money received.

I had to laugh when senior bartenders from Trader Sam's spoke at the City Council as to how little they made in wages with a straight face!

I know they make over $100 a hour in tips on a good night.

You are kidding!?! The union put bartenders up in front of the city council and claimed their hourly wage was their only source of income??? o_O

How could anyone do that with a straight face? Were the city council members told what the job title was of these CM's? Anaheim politicians can't be dumb enough to not realize a bartender makes tips. Surely that union claim that a bartender at the Disneyland Hotel only makes an hourly wage and no tips didn't pass muster. Did anyone point that out?

I mean, my God, a bartender slinging $3 beers at a sleepy VFW Hall will go home with fifty bucks in tips.

I think back on all the tips I've left for jokey Trader Sam's bartenders making $20 cocktails, and I imagine they could buy a Lexus for cash after a few months of that kind of money.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
As a Communications major, it's a wonderful degree, you just have to know how to use it. It has broad implications, given that nearly everything is rooted in communications, and it's just up to the degree holder on how they want to apply it to their future growth.

Like every degree.

It's true, there are legitimate business needs for people with Communications degrees. Like every degree.

But... it's also a pretty good punchline for a joke. ;)

 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
As a Communications major, it's a wonderful degree, you just have to know how to use it. It has broad implications, given that nearly everything is rooted in communications, and it's just up to the degree holder on how they want to apply it to their future growth.

Like every degree.
My brother has a political science degree, when he graduated I asked him what he could do with it and he said work with politicians or teach political science. He ended up getting a job in a completely unrelated field, it required a college degree though so it paid off.

My nephew got a journalism degree, he lasted about a year at his first job with a newspaper before he got disillusioned because they always wanted everything from a certain angle. Now he’s living back at home and writing a novel. He’s a brilliant writer so I’m hoping he’s able to get published.

College degrees are not the guarantee people think they are but you are correct, whether they’re good or bad depends on how you choose to use them.
 
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Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
You are kidding!?! The union put bartenders up in front of the city council and claimed their hourly wage was their only source of income??? o_O

How could anyone do that with a straight face? Were the city council members told what the job title was of these CM's? Anaheim politicians can't be dumb enough to not realize a bartender makes tips. Surely that union claim that a bartender at the Disneyland Hotel only makes an hourly wage and no tips didn't pass muster. Did anyone point that out?

I mean, my God, a bartender slinging $3 beers at a sleepy VFW Hall will go home with fifty bucks in tips.

I think back on all the tips I've left for jokey Trader Sam's bartenders making $20 cocktails, and I imagine they could buy a Lexus for cash after a few months of that kind of money.

Ask yourself WHY over 50% of 15+ year CM's only make minimum wage, or a few cents over....

Because these folks are getting supplemental income in the form of Tips.

There are many tipped positions at the resort.

These folks have directed the union to not fight for more wages, as it is such as small percentage of their income.

What they want/ask for is protection of their seniority and first right to what times and days they can work, along with the location, assuring them the best tips, such as weekend nights. Also benefits.

And your friend, Glyndanna, guess what her position is, tipped or non-tipped?
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Original Poster

Club Level Concierge Services​

Tips are welcomed by the staff for Club Level accommodations at Disney resorts. Tips here can range from a few dollars to $100 depending upon services rendered. Tip as seems appropriate.

 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
And your friend, Glyndanna, guess what her position is, tipped or non-tipped?

I did mutter two initials under my breath, the first initial is a 'B', when Glyndanna tried to tell the news reporter that Disneyland Hotel Concierge Lounge CM's can't accept tips.

I wouldn't tip a Lounge hostess for merely putting out the muffins and juice and smiling at me, but if I ask her to make a reservation or arrange a service and she does it, I would certainly give her a tip for that task. That's why you pay to stay in a Concierge level room in any hotel in the world, to use the concierge for their intended purpose. And hotel concierges have been tipped since time began.

I have been lucky to travel a great deal in my life, and I have always tipped concierge staff when they perform a specific service for me. None of them has ever declined that tip, even at Disney properties like the Grand Californian or the Polynesian.

Glyndanna is, simply, a piece of work. The mind boggles how she works that all out in her brain.
 

CaptinEO

Well-Known Member
My brother has a political science degree, when he graduated I asked him what he could do with it and he said work with politicians or teach political science. He ended up getting a job in a completely unrelated field, it required a college degree though so it paid off.

My nephew got a journalism degree, he lasted about a year at his first job with a newspaper before he got disillusioned because they always wanted everything from a certain angle. Now he’s living back at home and writing a novel. He’s a brilliant writer so I’m hoping he’s able to get published.

College degrees are not the guarantee people think they are but you are correct, whether they’re good or bad depends on how you choose to use them.
Never heard of any issues with engineering, medical, or computer science degrees.

I feel a lot of people don't realistically look into potential job opportunities when they go for their degree.

That being said there are many office jobs or promotions that require "a degree" of any type.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
Disney can absolutely afford to pay their employees more but anyone who thinks they will decrease profits to do it is deluding themselves. Those costs will be directly pushed onto us and those raises will come directly out of our wallets.

That isn't really how this works though. Disney's prices are already calculated out to be in the sweet spot between pricing people out, and keeping the parks full. The pricing isn't really a reflection of the cost of the product being offered, but the most the market will bear, across all of their ticketing options.

And Disney has acknowledged in previous statements that increased labor costs have impacted their results, so it's not really something they've shied away from before.


Some details on the offer from today:

Still to be determined if they Cast will vote for it, but it does bring their wages in line with what Measure L would have provided anyway.


Also worth noting this wonderful article posted today by that left wing bastion the Wall Street Journal:


There’s a lot of debate about whether raising the minimum wage decreases employment, and whether it is a net plus or minus for businesses. But a new study suggests that higher pay is a positive for at least one group: customers.​
The study’s authors analyzed thousands of restaurant reviews after San Jose, Calif., raised its minimum wage from $8 to $10 in 2013 but the surrounding cities in Santa Clara County didn’t. They found the wage increase seemed to improve customers’ perceptions of wait staffs’ friendliness and courteousness, as measured by online reviews. For example, the number of negative comments about the wait staff at nonchain restaurants decreased 2.1% in the 12 months after San Jose increased the minimum wage, compared with both the previous 12 months and with restaurants in the surrounding cities of Santa Clara County.​
“These results are consistent with the notion that greater wages motivate workers to serve better or that they increase the restaurant’s ability to hire workers who are friendlier and/or more courteous,” says Dinesh Puranam, an assistant professor at the University of Southern California’s Marshall School of Business and one of the study’s co-authors.​
 

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