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Disney Genie, Genie+ officially introduced along with confirmed details of how it will work

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
According to the logic of this forum, those who use a supposedly objectionable service willingly are worse than those who use it begrudgingly. That seems backwards to me. If any group deserves to be reprimanded (and to be clear, I myself don’t think either group does), surely it’s the one whose members believe the service to be unethical yet utilise it anyway.
You’re the only one who keeps pushing this.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
The thing is that just all parks have a skip the line system. Disney seems to be the only one that has as many complaints about a skip the line system. IMO Genie+ could have been a success if they went the Universal route. Disney's fault is they continue to see Skip the Line as a system to move guests around.
It's because the numbers do not work with the capacity Disney has, the demand Disney has, and the ride capacity Disney allocates to the line skip. If all those other parks had the same ratios Disney has they would perform just as poorly. I guarantee if Cedar Point only had 4 roller coasters (lets say the ones on Fast Lane Plus) in the park and not 16, their line skip would blow up things just as bad as anything happening at WDW right now. For Fast Lane Plus, which includes the best coasters it even specifically says "A very limited number of passes are available each day." Unlike Disney which tried to make 80% of daily ride capacity use the skip option.

The other parks *know* when you offer too many people the option to skip, things break. If Cedar Point sold 80% of those rides capacity via Fast Lane Plus like Disney and FP+, it would break. I don't even think Disney can offer Universal's Express pass because demand is still >>> available capacity because people have been trained that you have to skip or your day will be ruined. Disney is the one with the most complaints because they're the ones with system that isn't designed for their crowd makeup and ride expectations. But like I said to you earlier, people will only believe it when things are so bad that every seat on the top rides are sold via line skip and it still sells out in minutes and people can't claim their seat in musical chairs ahead of other people.
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
It's because the numbers do not work with the capacity Disney has, the demand Disney has, and the ride capacity Disney allocates to the line skip. If all those other parks had the same ratios Disney has they would perform just as poorly. I guarantee if Cedar Point only had 4 roller coasters (lets say the ones on Fast Lane Plus) in the park and not 16, their line skip would blow up things just as bad as anything happening at WDW right now. For Fast Lane Plus, which includes the best coasters it even specifically says "A very limited number of passes are available each day." Unlike Disney which tried to make 80% of daily ride capacity use the skip option.

The other parks *know* when you offer too many people the option to skip, things break. If Cedar Point sold 80% of those rides capacity via Fast Lane Plus like Disney and FP+, it would break. I don't even think Disney can offer Universal's Express pass because demand is still >>> available capacity because people have been trained that you have to skip or your day will be ruined. Disney is the one with the most complaints because they're the ones with system that isn't designed for their crowd makeup and ride expectations. But like I said to you earlier, people will only believe it when things are so bad that every seat on the top rides are sold via line skip and it still sells out in minutes and people can't claim their seat in musical chairs ahead of other people.
It's why I keep saying Disney needs to stop making every ride marketable and start putting in more rides like Aliens Swirling Saucers. I still standby the notion they need a B&M in every park.
 

Chi84

Premium Member
I pity anyone trying to use the very esoteric and often pedantic discussions that populate this “News” forum for general trip planning.
The thread is about Genie+ and the details of how it will work. Maybe the people coming here didn’t expect some posters would insist on turning it into an esoteric and pedantic discussion about “larger systems.”
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
It matters when people take it upon themselves to pontificate about things of which they themselves are “guilty”.
I am actually surprised to see you stooping to this sort of lame gotcha game. You use air conditioning at Walt Disney World, does that mean you never express concerns about the environment?

Not really. You quoted my post as an example of “why there is any sort of rebuking”. Can you explain why my usage of line-skipping services is any more deserving of censure than, say, @sedati’s or @Casper Gutman’s?
I’ve never said your personal use was a problem or deserving of censure. The problem is claiming there wasn’t a problem because you didn’t encounter them or think about them and then framing every attempt to point out deficiencies as a personal attack.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
It's why I keep saying Disney needs to stop making every ride marketable and start putting in more rides like Aliens Swirling Saucers. I still standby the notion they need a B&M in every park.
But those aren't the rides people want to ride. They could have FOP and 50 other rides, and people would still line up for FOP because it's "the best thing in the park." What makes people say they don't have to ride FOP is if they could experience the exact same ride system but instead of visiting Pandora you are riding a speeder bike through the forests of Endor. If Forbidden Journey was right next to FOP, I bet that would also make people think real hard about which one they want to queue up for.

When Tik Tok tells you these are the 5 must do's, Alien's Swirling Saucers is not an acceptable substitute.
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
But those aren't the rides people want to ride. They could have FOP and 50 other rides, and people would still line up for FOP because it's "the best thing in the park." What makes people say they don't have to ride FOP is if they could experience the exact same ride system but instead of visiting Pandora you are riding a speeder bike through the forests of Endor. If Forbidden Journey was right next to FOP, I bet that would also make people think real hard about which one they want to queue up for.

When Tik Tok tells you these are the 5 must do's, Alien's Swirling Saucers is not an acceptable substitute.
You can't always keep adding E ticket attractions. You also need the one that you say people don't want to ride. Disney needs capacity and with how slow they build things most of us will be on our death bed before they ever get to that point.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
But those aren't the rides people want to ride. They could have FOP and 50 other rides, and people would still line up for FOP because it's "the best thing in the park." What makes people say they don't have to ride FOP is if they could experience the exact same ride system but instead of visiting Pandora you are riding a speeder bike through the forests of Endor. If Forbidden Journey was right next to FOP, I bet that would also make people think real hard about which one they want to queue up for.
This isn’t entirely true. People do make substitutions. The Indiana Jones Adventure commanded incredibly long lines in the Summer of 95 that snakes around the park. That situation didn’t persist until Rise of the Resistance opened.

Sure, Disneyland is the “locals” parks but you don’t sell thousands of timeshares to one time visitors. Frequency may be spread out more but the crowds at Walt Disney World are being driven more and more by the same people returning, not new and unique guests. You also previously touched on why the ongoing high demand remains so concentrated at Walt Disney World, the lack of capacity (there isn’t much else at Disney’s Animal Kingdom to take the load off of Flight of Passage) and the reservation systems that juice demand with the allure of a shorter wait.

You can’t load the park up with E-Tickets and there may be certain “must do” experiences that not everyone can do, but offering more capacity can help make up for it and ease the pain while encouraging a return visit. Not being able to do Flight of Passage and only doing five rides over a whole day and your meals taking forever is really going to sting. It’ll sting a lot less if you did more things of various levels, getting food was quick and easy, etc.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
I am actually surprised to see you stooping to this sort of lame gotcha game. You use air conditioning at Walt Disney World, does that mean you never express concerns about the environment?


I’ve never said your personal use was a problem or deserving of censure. The problem is claiming there wasn’t a problem because you didn’t encounter them or think about them and then framing every attempt to point out deficiencies as a personal attack.
First, I’m not stooping to anything. I’m trying to make sense of what seems to me a flagrant double standard.

Second, I never said there isn’t a problem. I simply said that I see no way out of the problem that doesn’t take into account that 1) line-skipping services are here to stay, and 2) capacity isn’t going to be significantly increased anytime soon. It seems all of us acknowledge this reality, since all of us (however begrudgingly) appear to be using line-skipping services to maximise our personal enjoyment of the parks.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
You can't always keep adding E ticket attractions. You also need the one that you say people don't want to ride. Disney needs capacity and with how slow they build things most of us will be on our death bed before they ever get to that point.
Disney's incompetence doesn't change the fact that you have to offer what people actually want to buy. Which in a theme park is mostly D&E tickets. That's why I pointed out the distribution of rides in the 1970s. There were far more Ds & Es than there ever were Bs & Cs. This is nothing new. The need has only gotten worse since the Internet allows people to be more educated about the park before they step into it. Everyone makes fun of the idea that Teacups are a FP ride, there is a reason for that. Because people know in their heart of hearts they aren't a proper substitute. That doesn't mean don't have them. But you have them for other reasons. To flesh out a day, to give people something of a different pace when they need to decompress for a moment, something for people who don't want thrills, younger, older to add kinetics to an area, etc. They will never be a substitute for people when they are looking for a premium experience, and at these admission costs people are going to be looking for multiple premium experiences. And I bet you know that, because when you go to the park that's what you are looking for. Multiple premium experiences.
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
The thread is about Genie+ and the details of how it will work. Maybe the people coming here didn’t expect some posters would insist on turning it into an esoteric and pedantic discussion about “larger systems.”
This thread is about Genie+ news and Genie+ as a concept. There is an entire separate forum about using Genie+.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
This isn’t entirely true. People do make substitutions. The Indiana Jones Adventure commanded incredibly long lines in the Summer of 95 that snakes around the park. That situation didn’t persist until Rise of the Resistance opened.

Sure, Disneyland is the “locals” parks but you don’t sell thousands of timeshares to one time visitors. Frequency may be spread out more but the crowds at Walt Disney World are being driven more and more by the same people returning, not new and unique guests. You also previously touched on why the ongoing high demand remains so concentrated at Walt Disney World, the lack of capacity (there isn’t much else at Disney’s Animal Kingdom to take the load off of Flight of Passage) and the reservation systems that juice demand with the allure of a shorter wait.

You can’t load the park up with E-Tickets and there may be certain “must do” experiences that not everyone can do, but offering more capacity can help make up for it and ease the pain while encouraging a return visit. Not being able to do Flight of Passage and only doing five rides over a whole day and your meals taking forever is really going to sting. It’ll sting a lot less if you did more things of various levels, getting food was quick and easy, etc.
People substitute for things they believe are comparably satisfying or close enough. And Disneyland has a bunch of E-Tickets to find "comparable." Space, Splash, BTMRR, Matterhorn, HM, Pirates. Even things like Jungle Cruise, Small World, Star Tours. That's 9 comparable options. Even spectacles, like a parade, fireworks or Fantasmic could be a comparable option. The majority who no longer queued for Indy didn't do so in favor of the ground level Astro Orbiter and Dumbo.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
First, I’m not stooping to anything. I’m trying to make sense of what seems to me a flagrant double standard.

Second, I never said there isn’t a problem. I simply said that I see no way out of the problem that doesn’t take into account that 1) line-skipping services are here to stay, and 2) capacity isn’t going to be significantly increased anytime soon. It seems all of us acknowledge this reality, since pretty much all of us appear to be using line-skipping services to maximise our personal enjoyment of the parks.
You concocted the standard and the issue and are now trying to claim hypocrisy based on a singular criteria. You are the one who keeps framing it as some sort of issue of right and wrong. Maybe I still visit because my grandkids love going and I let them determine the itinerary so if they booked FastPass+ then that is what we used. But if the whole thing is just maximizing personal preference and gain then there is no hypocrisy.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
People substitute for things they believe are comparably satisfying or close enough. And Disneyland has a bunch of E-Tickets to find "comparable." Space, Splash, BTMRR, Matterhorn, HM, Pirates. Even things like Jungle Cruise, Small World, Star Tours. That's 9 comparable options. Even spectacles, like a parade, fireworks or Fantasmic could be a comparable option. The majority who no longer queued for Indy didn't do so in favor of the ground level Astro Orbiter and Dumbo.
Right but they also didn’t only queue for those few marquee experiences. The key is variety. The Walt Disney World parks are just so far into the hole that you need E-Tickets as well but they also make things worse by inducing demand.
 

pdude81

Well-Known Member
The common good is pretty easy to define at a theme park, it is getting the average attractions per guest per hour as high (as close to 2) as possible. Ignoring that Disney and most operators offer accommodations for those with difficulties queuing, you seem to repeatedly ignore that adequate capacity would mean targeting an average wait of 20 - 30 minutes per attraction. 20 minutes was the threshold that FastPass used to promise. Yes, it might be more if you only want to hit the few things with the longest lines in a short window, but that is a unique edge case and not how most people visit.

You’re at your local grocery store on a decently busy day. There are lines starting to form at the registers. Which is the better solution for getting more people through checkout as quickly as possible? 1) Opening the additional registers that are closed or 2) Closing a register or two and switching half or more of those that are open to an “Express” lane that you either have to reserve in advance or pay extra to use?
I don't think this is a fair example because they aren't closing any registers. They absolutely are prioritizing certain shoppers for certains trips, but not closing registers or generally throughput. Throughput is the name of the game. And if it stays mostly constant it's just about what is the best mix for customers. Now you can argue all day about the precise effect of rolling line skips, but the throughput is the same whether they have 1 line or two.
 

matt9112

Well-Known Member
This just doesn't seem comparable to me. One early morning 60 days out where I can use my computer to book instead of a phone versus having to do the same scramble every single day of my vacation. As the person who plans for my family, I'm really not looking forward to having to do that almost every day we are there. I get that FP+ was broken but I'd much prefer they'd gone with MaxPass exactly than this.

This....lol....but some people will defend this system until they are blue in the face.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
no - because all of those scenarios are still ahead of one day guests… even at 60days. The benefit is everyone who is staying 2 or more days…. Just longer stays have even more advantage. The longer stay is more advantaged over the shorter stay and both are still advantaged over the single day.
You keep ignoring the other side of the tradeoff. FP+ gave multiple-day guests an advantage over one-day guests..... which was bad for one-day guests.

If it's true that "A had an advantage over B," then it's also true that "B was at a DISadvantage relative to A."
 

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