Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
Probably nothing when the Feds appeal and get a stay on the void until the Appellate Court makes a decision.

I wonder if it’s worth fighting, seems like a gift wrapped win in an election year. “We tried to err on the side of caution but the courts struck us down”, they can claim the high road while watching an unpopular mandate disappear and letting the majority get what they want.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
I wonder if it’s worth fighting, seems like a gift wrapped win in an election year. “We tried to err on the side of caution but the courts struck us down”, they can claim the high road while watching an unpopular mandate disappear and letting the majority get what they want.
And I get do my long asz flight without a mask. Because that’s what it most important, right?
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
You see what you want to see sometimes too. And some is luck. Until it ends, I'll do as I'm told.
A few days ago, shortly after reading this thread, I was in the grocery store. Wearing a mask, even without a rule, for 2 reasons. First, cases are on the slight rise locally. Second, and just as important, the staff was still wearing masks. If that was for my benefit, their benefit, company policy, their personal policy, or whatever reason, it seemed more polite (but not required) to mirror their action.

Walked down the first aisle, nobody but me was wearing one. Thoughts of this thread, and was I a last holdout despite the staff? Walked down the second aisle, everyone in the aisle was wearing one.

You definitely see things that are on your mind.
 

CaptainAmerica

Well-Known Member
A few days ago, shortly after reading this thread, I was in the grocery store. Wearing a mask, even without a rule, for 2 reasons. First, cases are on the slight rise locally. Second, and just as important, the staff was still wearing masks. If that was for my benefit, their benefit, company policy, their personal policy, or whatever reason, it seemed more polite (but not required) to mirror their action.

Walked down the first aisle, nobody but me was wearing one. Thoughts of this thread, and was I a last holdout despite the staff? Walked down the second aisle, everyone in the aisle was wearing one.

You definitely see things that are on your mind.
This could also easily be an "Abilene paradox" situation. I wear a mask because I assume you want me to, and you wear a mask because you assume I want you to, but neither of us actually bothers to check with the other to confirm our assumptions.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
Second, and just as important, the staff was still wearing masks. If that was for my benefit, their benefit, company policy, their personal policy, or whatever reason, it seemed more polite (but not required) to mirror their action.
Maybe the employees didn't want you to mirror them. Maybe they don't want to wear one, but their leaders make them wear one because they assume you and all customers want them to wear one...
 

correcaminos

Well-Known Member
It absolutely can be that no one wants to wear one but we all do what we think others like. Our cases are up marginally but lower than when we first started to drop. So no rushing here. I have masks and wear if told. No big deal.

I did try to look without clouded eyes in March when I went. We were not masked but curious to see what others did. In the queue for Soarin literally the entire 2nd row had them on. No one in the other rows. So weird but that was the highest I saw indoors. Buses were best and monorails were so varied.

Not related I have been reading about the federal judge and still don't quite understand the implications. I don't do lawyer speak well 🤣
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
Not related I have been reading about the federal judge and still don't quite understand the implications. I don't do lawyer speak well 🤣
United Airlines is waiting on the feds to tell them how to proceed...which would be either updated guidance which says the mask mandate is dropped...or additional information if the feds challenge the ruling...
 

correcaminos

Well-Known Member
United Airlines is waiting on the feds to tell them how to proceed...which would be either updated guidance which says the mask mandate is dropped...or additional information if the feds challenge the ruling...
Tired Good Night GIF

Eta, I get what you're saying, but this is how I feel about it all right now.
 

Tom P.

Well-Known Member
United Airlines is waiting on the feds to tell them how to proceed...which would be either updated guidance which says the mask mandate is dropped...or additional information if the feds challenge the ruling...
I get that they're trying to play a little CYA, but the feds don't get to decide whether or not to drop the mandate. If a federal judge has tossed it out, it's gone unless and until a higher court reinstates it. You don't go to the party who lost for guidance on what to do next.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
This could also easily be an "Abilene paradox" situation. I wear a mask because I assume you want me to, and you wear a mask because you assume I want you to, but neither of us actually bothers to check with the other to confirm our assumptions.

Maybe the employees didn't want you to mirror them. Maybe they don't want to wear one, but their leaders make them wear one because they assume you and all customers want them to wear one...
Could be. If it were some services type business, or some one-one interaction thing where the use (or not) of a mask was likely to be a factor. Say you were going to a chiropractor or something and their use of a mask was important to you, then perhaps.

But, in a grocery store, big box retail, or fast food place, it's either going to be a management decision where the employee has little choice and even less impact to change or it's going to be an individual employee wearing for their own reasons. Either way, if they can put up with it for their entire shift, I can put up with it for the much more limited time I'm there. What I do is likely to have no impact on management decisions, either the local management or the more likely corporate direction handed down.

Maybe I'll feel different when cases are even lower, if they're still wearing them. But, we didn't get under a daily rate of 10 or a weekly average of 50 at all and are back at 100/100K 7 day average now. Good news for me, Orange County FL is lower than locally, still over 50 weekly. If it could trend down just a little before our trip, that would be nice.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
I get that they're trying to play a little CYA, but the feds don't get to decide whether or not to drop the mandate. If a federal judge has tossed it out, it's gone unless and until a higher court reinstates it. You don't go to the party who lost for guidance on what to do next.
Oh yeah. I just think United doesn't want to implement a full pull back if the feds are going to challenge and get a temporary stay. I bet we hear something more within 24 hours.
 

ArmoredRodent

Well-Known Member
"A federal judge in Florida has voided the national mask mandate covering airplanes and other public transportation as exceeding the authority of U.S. health officials.

Jumping back in for the first time in months, so please forgive me if someone actually said something about this already (other than, "what does this mean?!").

There are two parts to Judge Kathryn Kimball Mizelle's decision today:
1) The CDC did not have sufficient authorization from Congress to issue such a sweeping mask mandate on federally-regulated transportation in January 2021 following President Biden's Executive Order (that is, the regulation was written sloppily); and,
2) In issuing its mask mandate, the CDC failed to show why it should not follow the regular procedural requirements of "notice and comment" under the Administrative Procedures Act - the basic rule that says federal agencies must seek outside comments on most proposed agency regulations (that is, the rule was issued in haste for no good reason).

As discussed repeatedly here over the course of the pandemic, at the start of an emergency, courts generally give agencies wide deference (leeway to act), including pandemics, without following lots of procedural rules when there isn't a lot of information available about the problem and/or no real remedies available. Over time, as we learn more about both the problems and the remedies, those procedural and substantive limits flow back into force, so that courts will require more and more precision in governmental regulation. At least that is the process that has been followed repeatedly throughout our history, including most recently during the pandemic.

Judge Mizelle's decision follows in that same pattern. She found, basically that the CDC acted too quickly and too broadly after President Biden's Executive Order. On both parts of her decision, however, she has written on the extreme edge of precision in that form of review (IOW, she's applying as strict an interpretation of those rules as she can find in both current and prior examples), but that does not make her decision any less effective or reasonable.

For example, on part one (the CDC's authority to hand down sweeping mandates), Judge Mizelle, in the final analysis, follows carefully the new versions of the "major questions" doctrine: agencies cannot issue regulations making sweeping rules that govern many sections of American life or many people unless Congress has clearly written the agency's governing law to give it that specific power. "Major questions" require more specific authorization than the tweaks and clarifications ordinarily the fodder of government regulations. Basic rule: the bigger the government action, the more precise the legislative authorization must be. We're more likely to see that sort of sweeping "carpet bombing" regulation at the early stages of emergencies like pandemics; the requirements for precision follow inevitably, and that's what this decision was. Too broadly written, too hastily. Not enough precision, at least partly because the agency narrowly followed the Executive Order rather than the APA's requirement to hear from all sides.

Given her strong findings on both these parts, it's no surprise that she issued a powerful order - vacating (voiding) the regulation and remanding (returning it) to the CDC to try better on both fronts. Again, she didn't have to do it that way, especially given that the mandate expires in a couple of weeks, but given the trend in higher court opinions recently, she was well within her jurisdiction to do that. Her assertion of a national injunction, however, was overbroad, and she knew it. Slip op. at 55.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
Jumping back in for the first time in months, so please forgive me if someone actually said something about this already (other than, "what does this mean?!").

There are two parts to Judge Kathryn Kimball Mizelle's decision today:
1) The CDC did not have sufficient authorization from Congress to issue such a sweeping mask mandate on federally-regulated transportation in January 2021 following President Biden's Executive Order (that is, the regulation was written sloppily); and,
2) In issuing its mask mandate, the CDC failed to show why it should not follow the regular procedural requirements of "notice and comment" under the Administrative Procedures Act - the basic rule that says federal agencies must seek outside comments on most proposed agency regulations (that is, the rule was issued in haste for no good reason).

As discussed repeatedly here over the course of the pandemic, at the start of an emergency, courts generally give agencies wide deference (leeway to act), including pandemics, without following lots of procedural rules when there isn't a lot of information available about the problem and/or no real remedies available. Over time, as we learn more about both the problems and the remedies, those procedural and substantive limits flow back into force, so that courts will require more and more precision in governmental regulation. At least that is the process that has been followed repeatedly throughout our history, including most recently during the pandemic.

Judge Mizelle's decision follows in that same pattern. She found, basically that the CDC acted too quickly and too broadly after President Biden's Executive Order. On both parts of her decision, however, she has written on the extreme edge of precision in that form of review (IOW, she's applying as strict an interpretation of those rules as she can find in both current and prior examples), but that does not make her decision any less effective or reasonable.

For example, on part one (the CDC's authority to hand down sweeping mandates), Judge Mizelle, in the final analysis, follows carefully the new versions of the "major questions" doctrine: agencies cannot issue regulations making sweeping rules that govern many sections of American life or many people unless Congress has clearly written the agency's governing law to give it that specific power. "Major questions" require more specific authorization than the tweaks and clarifications ordinarily the fodder of government regulations. Basic rule: the bigger the government action, the more precise the legislative authorization must be. We're more likely to see that sort of sweeping "carpet bombing" regulation at the early stages of emergencies like pandemics; the requirements for precision follow inevitably, and that's what this decision was. Too broadly written, too hastily. Not enough precision, at least partly because the agency narrowly followed the Executive Order rather than the APA's requirement to hear from all sides.

Given her strong findings on both these parts, it's no surprise that she issued a powerful order - vacating (voiding) the regulation and remanding (returning it) to the CDC to try better on both fronts. Again, she didn't have to do it that way, especially given that the mandate expires in a couple of weeks, but given the trend in higher court opinions recently, she was well within her jurisdiction to do that. Her assertion of a national injunction, however, was overbroad, and she knew it. Slip op. at 55.
Guesses on what happens next and timeframe?
 

ArmoredRodent

Well-Known Member
Guesses on what happens next and timeframe?
Judge Micelle sits in the Middle District of Florida (e.g., Orlando), so within the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit, not one of the more influential courts to have ruled on pandemic topics, unlike, say, the Sixth Circuit headed by its increasingly-influential Chief Judge Jeff Sutton (who basically rewrote the "major questions" doctrine for ratification by the U.S. Supreme Court) who is now doing the consolidated OSHA mandate cases. So, not easy to guess.

Two quick paths right now, both discretionary: 1) if the 11th Cir. doesn't like what Judge Micelle wrote, they can stay it if they'd like. Possible grounds: no reason to waste time revising a rule that's about to expire. This may be unlikely. Judge Micelle's opinion is well-written, if a bit over-wrought in places. 2) Seek action from the U.S. Supreme Court before the 11th Cir acts, using the newly-invigorated "shadow docket" (emergency pleas that don't require extensive briefing or argument). That's possible, but again unlikely here, especially given the complaining about the shadow docket both in the media and from some judges and Justices.

What will likely save Judge Micelle's decision is the schedule: as everyone knows, these mandates are sputtering out anyway. Both parts of her decision are massively complicated legally, and will take time to sort out. Wouldn't it be ironic to have her decision compared to the problem she railed against: working too quickly and without giving enough people time to weigh in? By the same terms, there's no reason why the CDC needs to act to clarify the situation; the APA requirement that Judge Micelle imposed on the agency requires, at a bare minimum, 30 days public notice and comment (and likely much, much more), which would last beyond the effective end of the rule as extended. So, unless there's some judge on the 11th Circuit or Justice on the Supreme Court who really wants to make a point of this in legal terms (by issuing instructions to lower courts so this sort of problem doesn't arise again), just not that likely to be a rush to revise it.

But ... I've been wrong on these before. So ...
 
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