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Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

helenabear

Well-Known Member
We provide ECMO, but only for 24 hours. The county as a whole, across two hospitals, has 4 circuits and 7 perfusionists. It’s incredibly man-hour intensive for a small cardiac program like both of ours. And without large-scale use, ICU nursing and RT staffs never learn enough to relieve perfusionists of the burden of management. So you either cancel cardiac cases or don’t offer the service if one of our joint receiving centers (Univ of Utah or a smattering of Denver hospitals) don’t have room. We’ve had to let more than one patient go because of this.

Oh, and we have zero pediatric disposables, cardiologists, or CV surgeons to even make it a possibility to initiate kids. And people wonder why we’d want to mask kids. Which policy, masks or hope they survive a flight to Seattle Children’s, is more abusive to children?

OK, rant over.
I am so sorry. One of my dear friends is a perfusionists and I hear the stories in their hospital. It's heartbreaking.
 
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Andrew C

You know what's funny?
I find it curious that some think allowing for mask mandates in Florida schools would have done anything to curb the negative trends that many districts have seen. This is the highly contagious delta we are talking about. This ain't alpha like last school year. Now, if you mandated vaccines for all teachers and staff, upgraded HVAC systems where necessary for improved air flow, cancelled all extra curricular activities, allowed for virtual options, and were able to actually have some form of legit social distancing while at school...that would probably move the needle. At this point, I also think vaccines should mandated for kids at public schools as soon as possible. You can already get the ball rolling with the 16 and up group. No need to hesitate on this...it is the best form of mitigation available. Everyone wants to talk about the two options are masks or do nothing. False choice. I am more interested in the options that can have a significant impact when dealing with delta at school.
 

Nubs70

Well-Known Member
My company has made it clears it’s a personal choice also, while dangling dozens of carrots in front of people trying to entice them to get the vaccine since it directly affects our occupancy rates, I’ve also noticed a serious uptick in write ups in the last few weeks that seem to be hitting the few remaining unvaccinated holdouts disproportionately hard.

It seems our management team doesn’t want the headache of forcing medical decisions on employees but it also seems pretty clear certain people are currently under a microscope, it’s pretty easy to find a reason to fire people if you look hard enough.
This could be considered "constructive discharge" which is not covered under At Will statutes.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I find it curious that some think allowing for mask mandates in Florida schools would have done anything to curb the negative trends that many districts have seen. This is the highly contagious delta we are talking about. This ain't alpha like last school year. Now, if you mandated vaccines for all teachers and staff, upgraded HVAC systems where necessary for improved air flow, cancelled all extra curricular activities, allowed for virtual options, and were able to actually have some form of legit social distancing while at school...that would probably move the needle. At this point, I also think vaccines should mandated for kids at public schools as soon as possible. You can already get the ball rolling with the 16 and up group. No need to hesitate on this...it is the best form of mitigation available. Everyone wants to talk about the two options are masks or do nothing. False choice. I am more interested in the options that can have a significant impact when dealing with delta at school.
In places where community spread is low enough and proper distancing is possible and practical it’s possible that masks in schools would not be needed. We were prepared to start our school year with masks optional for all students when our case numbers were 0.5 per 100K people and our percent positive was well below 1%. Then delta came and that changed everything. Our district pivoted to masks for all students and is evaluating additional mitigations. The key is the ability to be flexible and pivot. It’s tragic that so many people think of covid in only linear terms. Once masks were dropped they think they should never come back. It’s foolish and short sighted. It’s proven that masks aren’t perfect or even highly effective, but they clearly are much better than nothing. For lack of a better option kids should be wearing masks in school. I’d rather have them all vaccinated and cases way down, but that’s not the reality we live in.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
In places where community spread is low enough and proper distancing is possible and practical it’s possible that masks in schools would not be needed. We were prepared to start our school year with masks optional for all students when our case numbers were 0.5 per 100K people and our percent positive was well below 1%. Then delta came and that changed everything. Our district pivoted to masks for all students and is evaluating additional mitigations. The key is the ability to be flexible and pivot. It’s tragic that so many people think of covid in only linear terms. Once masks were dropped they think they should never come back. It’s foolish and short sighted. It’s proven that masks aren’t perfect or even highly effective, but they clearly are much better than nothing. For lack of a better option kids should be wearing masks in school. I’d rather have them all vaccinated and cases way down, but that’s not the reality we live in.
The focus on masks as the savior and end all be all is concerning, and it seems to have hurt more than helped. I believe that singular focus is why no other options for schools are really even debated. I mean look here, its masks masks mask all day long. You want flexibility, yet many are still stuck on masks as the sole solution for schools, as if that is going to make everything peachy. Well, it won't. Not with this crazy variant. With delta, I doubt it would have even made a dent. A lot of time was wasted with this singular debate, IMO. On both sides...
 

SamusAranX

Well-Known Member
I find it curious that some think allowing for mask mandates in Florida schools would have done anything to curb the negative trends that many districts have seen. This is the highly contagious delta we are talking about. This ain't alpha like last school year. Now, if you mandated vaccines for all teachers and staff, upgraded HVAC systems where necessary for improved air flow, cancelled all extra curricular activities, allowed for virtual options, and were able to actually have some form of legit social distancing while at school...that would probably move the needle. At this point, I also think vaccines should mandated for kids at public schools as soon as possible. You can already get the ball rolling with the 16 and up group. No need to hesitate on this...it is the best form of mitigation available. Everyone wants to talk about the two options are masks or do nothing. False choice. I am more interested in the options that can have a significant impact when dealing with delta at school.

Are we seriously still questioning mask effectiveness?

What is this, 2020?
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
It’s tragic that so many people think of covid in only linear terms. Once masks were dropped they think they should never come back. It’s foolish and short sighted. It’s proven that masks aren’t perfect or even highly effective, but they clearly are much better than nothing. For lack of a better option kids should be wearing masks in school. I’d rather have them all vaccinated and cases way down, but that’s not the reality we live in.
To be fair to people like me, when the CDC changed the guidance for the vaccinated not to have to wear masks, there was no caveat that said "as long as the community transmission is low in your area." Even from the top, people were given a choice, "either get vaccinated or wear a mask." Again, no caveat. At that time the cases hadn't reached the low point yet.

You can make an argument in grades with students under 12 and at places like WDW that "better than nothing" should be implemented because there are many around who can't be vaccinated yet. In environments where the unvaccinatable (I made up a new word) are a very low proportion of the people, I don't think it is right to force annoying and uncomfortable mitigations on vaccinated people because it is "better than nothing." The people being put at risk in those situations can protect themselves.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
Are we seriously still questioning mask effectiveness?

What is this, 2020?
Delta is not alpha, it is much more contagious. So yes, in the setting of the school, I prefer the focus to have been on more impactful items. I am questioning the view of masks being the savior when there could have been other areas of focus that would had led to actually moving the needle.
 

SamusAranX

Well-Known Member
To be fair to people like me, when the CDC changed the guidance for the vaccinated not to have to wear masks, there was no caveat that said "as long as the community transmission is low in your area." Even from the top, people were given a choice, "either get vaccinated or wear a mask." Again, no caveat. At that time the cases hadn't reached the low point yet.

You can make an argument in grades with students under 12 and at places like WDW that "better than nothing" should be implemented because there are many around who can't be vaccinated yet. In environments where the unvaccinatable (I made up a new word) are a very low proportion of the people, I don't think it is right to force annoying and uncomfortable mitigations on vaccinated people because it is "better than nothing." The people being put at risk in those situations can protect themselves.
I would tend to agree, but with uncommon breakthrough's from Delta, here is where I am getting annoyed.

Continued disruption to my quality of life. It's definitely a first world problem, but here is an example; I have been sent home from work twice now to get tested; I then have to put my life on pause. All because others wont get vaccinated, won't mask up, etc.
 

SamusAranX

Well-Known Member
Delta is not alpha, it is much more contagious. So yes, in the setting of the school, I prefer the focus to have been on more impactful items. I am questioning the view of masks being the savior when there could have been other areas of focus that would had led to actually moving the needle.
You're right, Delta is not alpha, but that doesn't mean masks are completely ineffective against its spread. Even if it's only say, 20 percent effective, everyone wearing them: 1. reduces cumulative risk and 2. Still provides some protection. Seatbelts don't save every life or critical injury from happening, why bother wearing them?
 

sullyinMT

Well-Known Member
I find it curious that some think allowing for mask mandates in Florida schools would have done anything to curb the negative trends that many districts have seen. This is the highly contagious delta we are talking about. This ain't alpha like last school year. Now, if you mandated vaccines for all teachers and staff, upgraded HVAC systems where necessary for improved air flow, cancelled all extra curricular activities, allowed for virtual options, and were able to actually have some form of legit social distancing while at school...that would probably move the needle. At this point, I also think vaccines should mandated for kids at public schools as soon as possible. You can already get the ball rolling with the 16 and up group. No need to hesitate on this...it is the best form of mitigation available. Everyone wants to talk about the two options are masks or do nothing. False choice. I am more interested in the options that can have a significant impact when dealing with delta at school.
All of what you're saying would work. But this isn't an either/or. It's an and, especially in areas with high transmission. We need to remember that nobody under 12 is eligible for a vaccine (in limited cases, I guess a physician might off-label use a high-risk 11 year old or something). So, even in states and districts that have been proactive in mandating vaccines for teachers and school staff, kids still pose a risk to each other. Especially if Johnny 3rd Grade's parents are anti-vaxx and anti-mask and he is in class with Sally T1D. Her mask alone isn't as good as both of them being masked, with a vaccinated and (in high-spread areas especially) masked teacher. So, while you're technically correct that masks aren't the silver bullet, they are at least a musket ball or primitive rifle round when nothing else is available. And, just like old regiment line warfare, enough musket balls (universal masking) will cause a devastating blow to the spread of the virus. Heppenheimer has shared a quote with us here that inspired me to write our school board in support of our superintendent re: this very issue. I'll leave that excerpt of a much longer letter here.

The words of President Franklin D Roosevelt, delivered some 24 hours after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor, still hold true today (minor contemporary edits in brackets):

No matter how long it may take us to overcome this [pandemic], the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory.
I believe that I interpret the will of the [Board] and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us.
Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory, and our interests are in grave danger.
With confidence in our [students and staff], with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph—so help us God.


Please, continue to do the difficult but right thing. For the sake of our students and their community.
 
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Disney Experience

Well-Known Member
The concept seems to be wishful thinking and simply ignoring COVID. No masks because they don't like them is all. Taken as if the mask was a thing in isolation. Like fighting a requirement that you have to wear pants instead of shorts while shorts would be better when it's hot out.

It's like arguing that steal toe boots aren't needed on a dangerous manufacturing floor because the steal toe boots aren't comfortable. That they protect you from injury isn't part of the decision at all. Or, hard hats on a construction site.

My father was an expert witness when he was not retired ( well he is technically still a professor emeritus, 5 degrees with a phd in Industrial Engineering and Operations research/ Human Factors. On presidential review boards, etc.). Walt Disney Company had brought him in on some cases involving them, but the case he investigated that I still remember being told about when I was a young man was about a worker who lost his hand working a sheet metal cutting device.

There are buttons on each side of the machine that have to be pressed in order for the blade to descend to cut the metal. The design was to prevent hands being cut. Worker claimed it malfunctioned. My father did fault analysis , etc on the machine and operation process. He went on the work floor to get more understanding of operations. He found out workers did not place one hand on each button,( as design intended) rather they had one hand on one button, one hand pushing the sheet metal into the cutter and one foot pushing on a broomstick jury-rigged onto the other button meant to be pressed with hand. Most of the time the workers got more work done by bypassing the inconvenient safety feature, but it was not a wise choice.

Most people will not die if they are not vaccinated, but not getting it, if one is able, is not a wise choice.
 

Kman

Well-Known Member
Delta is not alpha, it is much more contagious. So yes, in the setting of the school, I prefer the focus to have been on more impactful items. I am questioning the view of masks being the savior when there could have been other areas of focus that would had led to actually moving the needle.
they are not saviours...they are simply one tool to help mitigate at least some of the impact
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
Like I said, I can’t do the mask thing all over again, but you can’t sincerely believe masks do nothing. I don’t believe that.
I am not doing the mask thing all over again. Although maybe you should from the perspective of delta? I am questioning the focus on them over the last year rather than other areas.

Did Florida do anything over the last year to upgrade their HVAC systems in schools? If not, why not?
Why are vaccines not mandated for teachers? Many teachers complained last year about not wanting to go back to school because it wasn't safe. Well, this would be about as safe as they could get in school.
Why are extra curricular activities still ongoing? We know spread occurred here last year more than in the classroom setting.
As much as I hate it, why was virtual taken off the table completely?
Heck, at this point, why isn't the state even considering vaccine mandates for all?

None of the above points are favorable to local leaders. So to suggest that my comments around masks are somehow political is just ridiculous. Saying that is just an easy way to blow someone off, which is why I said I was disappointed.
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member

Kman

Well-Known Member

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