Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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AmesTARDIS

Member

I hope NJ, NY and CT will change their minds by this week, next week, end of this month or next month....I don't want to wear mask in NJ anymore.
We are so close. Hang in there.
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
I would have to argue that effectiveness must be measured differently. We're they asymptomatic, have symptoms no more severe than a cold or are they hospitalized? If its on par with the common cold in severity or less, I would argue that the vaccine delivered.
It may not have been a wise idea but the NY Yankees admitted the team "relaxed " covid protocols after April 30, then 8 players that were vaccinated with J&J tested positive.
 

havoc315

Well-Known Member
Good for your kid, but the current CDC guidelines are wrong. They're not based on science.

The fact is, and has always been since the start of the pandemic, that COVID-19 is lower-risk to children than the flu. That's a fact. That's the science. Kids should have *never* been subject to mask mandates.

Your fact is incorrect. You are confusing different metrics. You are comparing the risk of flu in the general population to the risk of Covid in children.

You would be correct if you said Covid is lower risk to children than adults. True.
Also true: Covid is lower risk to children than flu to elderly.
False: Covid is lower risk to children than flu to children.

If you wanted to say that Covid risk is low to children, I'd certainly agree with that. But it's still higher than flu in chidren.
 

bryanfze55

Well-Known Member
We are now entering the phase where we are hurt by not implementing vaccine passports.

We have enough people vaccinated, that the CDC correctly is saying that vaccinated people can drop almost all mitigation.
But we have absolutely no system in place for selective enforcement of mitigation.

Here are the problems:
There are people who are both over-estimating and under-estimating the danger of Covid to vaccinated people.
Fact is, vaccination DRASTICALLY reduces your chances of getting Covid. But much like a seatbelt drastically reduces you chances of serious injury in an automobile accident, if you drive recklessly at 120mph, you still are putting yourself in mortal danger.
If there is very little Covid around AND you are vaccinated, then the odds you will contract Covid is exceptionally low. That's a combination of the protection from the vaccine and the infrequency of contact with Covid.
But, even if you are vaccinated, if you are in a poorly ventilated room filled with Covid positive people... every single day... then even with vaccination, you are at pretty real risk.
Thus, it is a fallacy to say that "only unvaccinated people are at risk." And if Covid spikes to high numbers, then there is so much Covid around, that even vaccinated people are still at a real risk.

The solution of course -- vaccine passports. If you're vaccinated and around other vaccinated people, it is exceptionally safe.

Dr. Scott Gottlieb has been an intelligent calm voice for the last year, but I think he is dead wrong on this one thing: He thinks the new rules will drive people to get vaccinated because unvaccinated people will be "honest" and they will voluntarily keep wearing a mask until they get vaccinated. He believes they will go get vaccinated because they want to take off their mask and don't want to "lie" about being vaccinated.

But, it's not a question about "honesty." Without passports, under the new guidance, nobody is asking whether you're vaccinated or not. It's a "don't ask, don't tell" situation. An unvaccinated person can (and will) remove their mask whether they are vaccinated or not. It won't feel "dishonest" to them, because nobody is going to ask them if they are vaccinated. And if someone does ask, I'm sure they will honestly reply, "I'm not vaccinated, but I'm choosing not to wear a mask."
I've seen some people express concern that if we simply used CDC cards as passports, you'd get people forging the CDC cards: I'm sure there would be some of that. But this is where most people would be honest. Most people aren't going to forge CDC cards.

Some enforcement of the new guidance would indeed increase vaccination. It would also allow vaccinated people to feel safer -- to know that everyone in the theater/restaurant/theme park/stadium is also vaccinated.

But the people who will "voluntarily" follow CDC guidance have already gotten vaccinated -- because that was the CDC guidance.
If they have ignored the CDC guidance to get vaccinated, why would they now start following the CDC guidance to wear a mask until they are vaccinated?

I suspect that we will be ok nationally, but this new guidance will slow down our Covid decline a bit. There is the worst case scenario, that we see more isolated spikes on local levels as mitigation gets shed in low vaccination areas.
But contracting COVID when you’re vaccinated is likely a non-issue. We need to stop acting like getting COVID is the worst thing in the world that can happen to someone. We have protection now to mitigate it. While the vaccines are very effective, they’re not full proof. But this far, they’ve been nearly full proof in preventing hospitalization and death. Isn’t that what matters?

*This is where someone will chime in and say “but vaccinated people can still pass along the virus!” And if that is true, they’ll be passing it along to those who have the vaccine. In that case, see my previous point. If they pass it along to an unvaccinated individual, that individual kind of had it coming. We aren’t going to be antisocial creatures forever just to protect those who refuse a vaccine.
 

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
But contracting COVID when you’re vaccinated is likely a non-issue. We need to stop acting like getting COVID is the worst thing in the world that can happen to someone. We have protection now to mitigate it. While the vaccines are very effective, they’re not full proof. But this far, they’ve been nearly full proof in preventing hospitalization and death. Isn’t that what matters?

*This is where someone will chime in and say “but vaccinated people can still pass along the virus!” And if that is true, they’ll be passing it along to those who have the vaccine. In that case, see my previous point. If they pass it along to an unvaccinated individual, that individual kind of had it coming. We aren’t going to be antisocial creatures forever just to protect those who refuse a vaccine.
And the vaccines are far more foolproof than masks, so vaccinated people don't need masks.
 

Mark52479

Well-Known Member
So Hershey Park just announced.........
 

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bryanfze55

Well-Known Member
So Hershey Park just announced.........
So adults can just lie about their vaccine status and walk around unmasked, meanwhile 3-year-olds have to wear them? This is not science. We’re the only country in the world with a restriction on children that young. Stay home if you’re scared of the toddlers, folks.
 

helenabear

Premium Member
The cruise ship lines disagree.
Reading straight from the site for them it's a mix of guidance still. They state it's up to the ships to figure it out. They are giving guidance. Since the ships are not US based often (they fly under flags of many nations) they need to give strong guidelines to follow. Even then they are not the policy makers for what we do. Look at the guidance given and how different each state or city deals. Even just differences in companies. They do not make our laws

Cruise ships are tightly regulated and not quite the same. They are also driven by many agencies like the IMO, WHO, CLIA among others. The end is that for US land, they are guiding. Even cruise ships they guide but with a stronger fist. They still do not write the exact policies.
 

havoc315

Well-Known Member
But contracting COVID when you’re vaccinated is likely a non-issue.

Again -- This hits my point about some people both overestimating and others underestimating the risk to vaccinated.
If you are vaccinated, you have a greatly reduced risk of dying from Covid -- largely because you have a reduced risk of even contracting Covid.

The CDC is currently reporting 9,245 breakthrough infections and 132 deaths. So a bit over 1% of breakthrough cases are still resulting in death.

Now, in the context of comparison to unvaccinated, that's a HUGE difference. Massive difference.

But it's not a non-issue.

If you have very low Covid in the community, then there is a super low risk of a vaccinated person getting Covid, and a super low risk of them dying from Covid.
If you have widespread Covid, then the risk to a vaccinated person is reduced, but not insignificant. And the risk of death is reduced, but not insignificant.
 
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havoc315

Well-Known Member
So adults can just lie about their vaccine status and walk around unmasked, meanwhile 3-year-olds have to wear them? This is not science. We’re the only country in the world with a restriction on children that young. Stay home if you’re scared of the toddlers, folks.

It should be the opposite: Enforce vaccine passports. Make the unvaccinated stay home, if they are scared of getting the vaccine.
 

bryanfze55

Well-Known Member
It should be the opposite: Enforce vaccine passports. Make the unvaccinated stay home, if they are scared of getting the vaccine.
I’m actually for that. But I fear there are some people who are so scarred from COVID that they may never feel safe again.
 

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
I get some may want the one and done shot ( J&J ) but I'm glad I got my Moderna shots in mid Jan, early Feb which medical folks say have a better percentage effectiveness rate.
Initially, my idea was that I would wait for the J&J shot since I've got no underlying conditions and the J&J vaccine is the more conventional vaccine.
I was a bit more comfortable with the conventional route vs mrna.
Well, I got the Moderna shot because a friend of the family was able to get me an appointment early.
Now, having the Moderna vaccine - and in light of the small problem with the J&J vaccines (very small) - I'm quite comfortable and happy that I got what I got when I did.
 

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
IMO the easiest solution is lifting masking when moving about outside and on attractions that are outside/have outside queues. Examples would be Jungle Cruise, Safari, Tea Cups, Barnstormer, ect. My understanding is that outside activities have very little risk of infecting people even if they are not vaccinated. Things like Buses, boats, ride portion of Spaceship Earth, Small World, Pan, Pirates ect. would still require them. You put a cast member at the front of the attraction letting people know they need to put their mask on for this. Sell it as saving the children and you have a workable solution. Rides that have queues or track that move both inside and outside become a little harder to make these decisions (Splash and Everest come to mind) of what's a mask ride and what's a maskless ride.
Kind of like putting on your 3D glasses before a ride.
 

GaBoy

Well-Known Member
So Hershey Park just announced.........
Yep. If I were running the business of a park. This is it. Resources are limited and I (park management) have the CDC behind me. Now comes the hard months of moving mindsets to self protective measure for those that have to.
 
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