News Big changes coming to EPCOT's Future World?

[Surferboy567]

Let's get some boat rides in WS

I really wanted the Mary Poppins thing to pan out...that was something I thought could of been great.

Of course, the idea that it was going to be a grand dark ride of some kind. Not teacups.

 

[DoleWhipDrea]

It’s like they wanted to take the majority of bad ideas coming out of Glendale and shove them all in one park.

It also feels like most of WDI has no real knowledge or interest in EPCOT's history and what made the original park exciting...I'm wondering how many of the designers have actually gone to visit EPCOT. Is this the culture in Glendale? Is being close to Disneyland making them assume they know everything about the rest of the parks around the world and what they need? They assume what works for one park will work for all the rest and everything should be the overall same experience?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Wouldn't a traditional demo have a parade of heavy and giant trucks going to and from the demo site?

How much could they do at night? What kind of damage would such trucks do to the walkways?

Given those restrictions, I don't think it's taking too long.

The walkways in a theme park are not all the typical cheap sidewalk you might find in front of your house. A fire truck has to be able to access each building meaning that at a minimum there is at least one route to every build that can handle the weight of fire trucks. Even outside those routes, walkways are designed to handle the weight of maintenance vehicles and parade floats so they’re more like a road in a lot of cases than a typical sidewalk.

I still think, even if the building is being recycled it’s a extremely poor reason for it to be still standing. How long have they been doing this? I know it was going on during my trip a year ago. So, it’s at least a year old. Disney is more then capable of demo’ing a building.

Of course, I am not in construction but the point still stands.

The point doesn’t stand because you don’t know. Disassembling a building properly does take time and part of the timeline includes a few months where work was paused due to the pandemic. This is a case of the slow, and much more expensive, process being one that is deserving of praise.

Sad that “better than nothing” is the measuring stick for Disney theme parks these days.

It’s also nonsense. It means the hub at Disneyland was better with a Ferris wheel plopped down in the middle of it than without. “Nothing” is more a value judgement than actual quantification.

It used to be about balance.

It was never about balance and it should not be either. Balance means judging based on something besides the experience. It should just be about what makes for the best experience. If the best ideas really are based on franchises then so be it but the same applies to original ideas.

 

[MisterPenguin]

It is official; Moana is NOT an attraction as it is neither interesting nor pleasing.

Officially, it's not a Moana attraction. It's Journey of Water featuring Moana.

It's not like a Maui AA is going to jump out at you.

It seems it's going to tell the same Water Cycle we all learned in 5th grade Earth Science and have a few Moana-ish themes attached to it.

 

[DCLcruiser]

Officially, it's not a Moana attraction. It's Journey of Water featuring Moana.

It's not like a Maui AA is going to jump out at you.

It seems it's going to tell the same Water Cycle we all learned in 5th grade Earth Science and have a few Moana-ish themes attached to it.

I can hear it now...

"...What can I say except, 'You're welcome'
For the tides, the sun, the sky [, and rain]
Hey, it's okay, it's okay
You're welcome"

 

[techgeek]

It seems it's going to tell the same Water Cycle we all learned in 5th grade Earth Science and have a few Moana-ish themes attached to it.

‘Moana-ish themes’ translation: some volcanic rock and a South Pacific biome dropped inexplicably in the middle of Future Worl... er.. sorry.. ‘World Nature’.

Give it a few years, I’m sure they’ll shoehorn in a Lilo and Stitch M&G. They’re overdue for their screen reboot.

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

Let's get some boat rides in WS

Why It’s A Small World After All

 

[Cmdr_Crimson]

I swear if GM ever drops with Epcot you can guarentee Disney would jump the gun to make TT the Rusteez Racing Center and move the Lighting Mcqueen AA from DHS in the main foyer as a preshow element while still keeping the same aspects of TT 2.0 but changing the vehicles to the RSR cars..

 

[The Rocketeer]

I swear if GM ever drops with Epcot you can guarentee Disney would jump the gun to make TT the Rusteez Racing Center and move the Lighting Mcqueen AA from DHS in the main foyer as a preshow element while still keeping the same aspects of TT 2.0 but changing the vehicles to the RSR cars..

Why did you have to put this out in the universe? You're giving them ideas

 

[J4546]

I swear if GM ever drops with Epcot you can guarentee Disney would jump the gun to make TT the Rusteez Racing Center and move the Lighting Mcqueen AA from DHS in the main foyer as a preshow element while still keeping the same aspects of TT 2.0 but changing the vehicles to the RSR cars..

yeah probably haha, but really what else would it be? another car company? It would be cool if they made it an electric car themed showcase ride maybe

 

[The Rocketeer]

I know many in this thread have their various degrees of disappointment when it comes to this overhaul, with some outright hating everything, but when does it come to you saying enough is enough and stop visiting the park, or WDW as a whole, completely? Have any of you actually contemplated this?

I certainly don't think this way. Just curious as to if people are serious when they say that they're done with EPCOT. It's easy to become jaded, I get it, but I still am cautiously optimistic when it comes to what will happen. There's some additions I like, some I don't, and some I'm largely indifferent towards. The changes to the hub seem unnecessary. They're not inherently bad ideas, but the hub was never the problem the park had, in my opinion. At least we can almost all agree that the entrance is a vast improvement.

 

[marni1971]

It was never about balance and it should not be either. Balance means judging based on something besides the experience. It should just be about what makes for the best experience. If the best ideas really are based on franchises then so be it but the same applies to original ideas.

Yes, it was. Although you seem to think I meant Eisner would pick IP, not iP, IP, not IP. That I doubt. I’ve posted in the past about TZ or SotS being the icing on the cake of those attractions for example. Even so, parks had a balance. But with the same outcome as you describe.
Now the mandate is it has to be truly truly exceptional to be approved if original. If it is not franchise based it is unlikely to be approved now. The balance has gone.

 

[DoleWhipDrea]

I know many in this thread have their various degrees of disappointment when it comes to this overhaul, with some outright hating everything, but when does it come to you saying enough is enough and stop visiting the park, or WDW as a whole, completely? Have any of you actually contemplated this?

I certainly don't think this way. Just curious as to if people are serious when they say that they're done with EPCOT. It's easy to become jaded, I get it, but I still am cautiously optimistic when it comes to what will happen. There's some additions I like, some I don't, and some I'm largely indifferent towards. The changes to the hub seem unnecessary. They're not inherently bad ideas, but the hub was never the problem the park had, in my opinion. At least we can almost all agree that the entrance is a vast improvement.

For me personally, if Figment is removed from the Imagination Pavilion I will not want to step foot in EPCOT again. That would be the final straw. I’m willing to give a lot of things a chance but to me that would be absolutely unforgivable.

I grew up on the west coast and was a DLR AP holder for many years, so I’ve seen plenty of changes. After all of that and seeing how the different parks are just maintained, I’ve been shocked at how terrible WDW’s maintenance has been (long before the pandemic.) WDW has been shortchanged for a long time and overall doesn’t have the same value to me as other Disney properties. There comes a point where you have to honestly justify what you’re paying for.

 

[Movielover]

It’s not an attraction. To call it that is an insult to attractions.

That about sums up the imagination, thought and depth of this project.

Now now hang on let's not be too hasty, I think we are all forgetting the high bar set by Imagineering...

Now THAT was a huge A-TRACTor-ION! Clearly they know what will get guest through gates!



*Yeah we're probably doomed...

 

[M:SpilotISTC12]

Imagine if a company could come up with something original and not based on synergy.

It used to be about balance.

No! I need more IPs. In fact start cramming them into the perfectly original themed hotels! Give me IPs or give me death!

 

[M:SpilotISTC12]

It's not like a Maui AA is going to jump out at you.

Well of course it's not going to do that. They built a billion dollar land with only two AAs. What makes you think they build ONE for a glorified water fountain?

 

[FerretAfros]

It also feels like most of WDI has no real knowledge or interest in EPCOT's history and what made the original park exciting...I'm wondering how many of the designers have actually gone to visit EPCOT. Is this the culture in Glendale? Is being close to Disneyland making them assume they know everything about the rest of the parks around the world and what they need? They assume what works for one park will work for all the rest and everything should be the overall same experience?

There really seems to be a stunning lack of curiosity across the board for an organization that likes to think of itself as a premiere design house. It's not just Epcot that eludes them, it's anything that's beyond their realm of familiarity, whether that's small details or larger philosophical themes to be incorporated in the spirit of a place.

Too often, they simply take what is familiar and comfortable, and apply that without regard for context. This can mean anything from copying a detail in a way that doesn't really make sense, to designing entire areas without consideration for how it will actually function on a day-to-day basis with real guests, CMs, and weather.

Passport to Dreams has done a great job of highlighting examples of how, over the years, WDI's California-based teams have slowly but surely removed elements unique to MK and replaced them with equivalents from DL, whether they make sense or not. One of the best examples is the Jack Sparrow-era removal of MK's original POTC queue soundtrack and replacement with DL's interior queue music loop. Instead of suspenseful noises of unseen pirates pillaging the fortress that the queue winds through, it's now smooth jazz interpretations of the attraction's memorable song. Not only does this detract from some of the park's most atmospheric place-setting, but the loop is also too short for WDW's significantly longer interior queue, so guests hear it repeat before they even board the ride. It's a downgrade from nearly any perspective, but it got approved because DL's version of the attraction is better, right?

It's the same mindset that brought Toy Story Land to WDW without any protection from the harsh Florida weather. It's why Epcot's abstract nighttime show is getting replaced with one focusing on familiar characters and songs. It's why the statues of Pele and Hina from DL's Tiki Room lanai are plunked down in MK's river, despite having nothing to do with the Clyde and Claude pre-show. If it's not going to make it more like Disneyland Park, it's not worth doing.

Even people I know at WDI who have visited various Disney parks around the world on their own, seem to simply see things and say "Huh, that's different here," without any considerations for the intent behind them. They're all very good at their isolated jobs, but seldom put it into the context of the bigger whole to understand how the various parts relate to one another. They might just as well be designing parts for an automobile, systems for a factory, or buildings for common use, as opposed to anything in a theme park. And these are the "good ones" who actually enjoy the parks in their free time, unlike so many of the decision-makers that oversee the parks who have no particular passion for their product.

Across the board, it seems like there's so much focus on the "what" that WDI often fails to think about "why" they're doing what they're doing. Beyond just copying things from an unrelated park, it also leads to faux-detail ornamentation that ultimately creates architectural nonsense, like WDW's Ratatouille area facades and the Riviera hotel. There's a fundamental lack of intellectual curiosity and understanding about how all the elements of a designed environment relate to one another to further an idea. They're so focused on the small details that they don't step back to think about whether it actually works together. Too often WDI misses the forest for the trees.

It really says a lot that previous generations of Imagineers were able to better at consistently capturing the spirit of a location from an encyclopedia article and a couple old postcards than the current generation is with lavish research expeditions to real-world locations. As an organization, there is far too little emphasis placed on really understanding why elements are included and how they further the design; everything is just superficial ornamentation to them, easily interchangeable with little regard for a larger purpose.

 

[HauntedPirate]

There really seems to be a stunning lack of curiosity across the board for an organization that likes to think of itself as a premiere design house. It's not just Epcot that eludes them, it's anything that's beyond their realm of familiarity, whether that's small details or larger philosophical themes to be incorporated in the spirit of a place.

Too often, they simply take what is familiar and comfortable, and apply that without regard for context. This can mean anything from copying a detail in a way that doesn't really make sense, to designing entire areas without consideration for how it will actually function on a day-to-day basis with real guests, CMs, and weather.

Passport to Dreams has done a great job of highlighting examples of how, over the years, WDI's California-based teams have slowly but surely removed elements unique to MK and replaced them with equivalents from DL, whether they make sense or not. One of the best examples is the Jack Sparrow-era removal of MK's original POTC queue soundtrack and replacement with DL's interior queue music loop. Instead of suspenseful noises of unseen pirates pillaging the fortress that the queue winds through, it's now smooth jazz interpretations of the attraction's memorable song. Not only does this detract from some of the park's most atmospheric place-setting, but the loop is also too short for WDW's significantly longer interior queue, so guests hear it repeat before they even board the ride. It's a downgrade from nearly any perspective, but it got approved because DL's version of the attraction is better, right?

It's the same mindset that brought Toy Story Land to WDW without any protection from the harsh Florida weather. It's why Epcot's abstract nighttime show is getting replaced with one focusing on familiar characters and songs. It's why the statues of Pele and Hina from DL's Tiki Room lanai are plunked down in MK's river, despite having nothing to do with the Clyde and Claude pre-show. If it's not going to make it more like Disneyland Park, it's not worth doing.

Even people I know at WDI who have visited various Disney parks around the world on their own, seem to simply see things and say "Huh, that's different here," without any considerations for the intent behind them. They're all very good at their isolated jobs, but seldom put it into the context of the bigger whole to understand how the various parts relate to one another. They might just as well be designing parts for an automobile, systems for a factory, or buildings for common use, as opposed to anything in a theme park. And these are the "good ones" who actually enjoy the parks in their free time, unlike so many of the decision-makers that oversee the parks who have no particular passion for their product.

Across the board, it seems like there's so much focus on the "what" that WDI often fails to think about "why" they're doing what they're doing. Beyond just copying things from an unrelated park, it also leads to faux-detail ornamentation that ultimately creates architectural nonsense, like WDW's Ratatouille area facades and the Riviera hotel. There's a fundamental lack of intellectual curiosity and understanding about how all the elements of a designed environment relate to one another to further an idea. They're so focused on the small details that they don't step back to think about whether it actually works together. Too often WDI misses the forest for the trees.

It really says a lot that previous generations of Imagineers were able to better at consistently capturing the spirit of a location from an encyclopedia article and a couple old postcards than the current generation is with lavish research expeditions to real-world locations. As an organization, there is far too little emphasis placed on really understanding why elements are included and how they further the design; everything is just superficial ornamentation to them, easily interchangeable with little regard for a larger purpose.

Quoting for posterity. Very well said.

 

[HauntedPirate]

I know many in this thread have their various degrees of disappointment when it comes to this overhaul, with some outright hating everything, but when does it come to you saying enough is enough and stop visiting the park, or WDW as a whole, completely? Have any of you actually contemplated this?

I certainly don't think this way. Just curious as to if people are serious when they say that they're done with EPCOT. It's easy to become jaded, I get it, but I still am cautiously optimistic when it comes to what will happen. There's some additions I like, some I don't, and some I'm largely indifferent towards. The changes to the hub seem unnecessary. They're not inherently bad ideas, but the hub was never the problem the park had, in my opinion. At least we can almost all agree that the entrance is a vast improvement.

Short answer: Yes. And we are DVC owners on top of it. Neither WDI nor management understands theme parks anymore. I guess that’s what you get when management cuts and/or pushes Imagineering talent out the door in the name of “cost containment” and replace them with younger, cheaper people with no semblance of a clue. You end up with the blind leading the blind. Riddley doesn’t “get it” and he’s the current WDI poster child. The lady doing the Splash overlay doesn't “get it”. The people who did Rat had an entire area at WDSP they could just copy and still cocked it up. And I understand some of the same people (Kevin Rafferty?) may have worked on both. That’s not necessarily all on them, that’s on management for forcing a square peg into a round hole. Or what has been typical for the Iger/Chapek era.

 

[bcoachable]

There really seems to be a stunning lack of curiosity across the board for an organization that likes to think of itself as a premiere design house. It's not just Epcot that eludes them, it's anything that's beyond their realm of familiarity, whether that's small details or larger philosophical themes to be incorporated in the spirit of a place.

Too often, they simply take what is familiar and comfortable, and apply that without regard for context. This can mean anything from copying a detail in a way that doesn't really make sense, to designing entire areas without consideration for how it will actually function on a day-to-day basis with real guests, CMs, and weather.

Passport to Dreams has done a great job of highlighting examples of how, over the years, WDI's California-based teams have slowly but surely removed elements unique to MK and replaced them with equivalents from DL, whether they make sense or not. One of the best examples is the Jack Sparrow-era removal of MK's original POTC queue soundtrack and replacement with DL's interior queue music loop. Instead of suspenseful noises of unseen pirates pillaging the fortress that the queue winds through, it's now smooth jazz interpretations of the attraction's memorable song. Not only does this detract from some of the park's most atmospheric place-setting, but the loop is also too short for WDW's significantly longer interior queue, so guests hear it repeat before they even board the ride. It's a downgrade from nearly any perspective, but it got approved because DL's version of the attraction is better, right?

It's the same mindset that brought Toy Story Land to WDW without any protection from the harsh Florida weather. It's why Epcot's abstract nighttime show is getting replaced with one focusing on familiar characters and songs. It's why the statues of Pele and Hina from DL's Tiki Room lanai are plunked down in MK's river, despite having nothing to do with the Clyde and Claude pre-show. If it's not going to make it more like Disneyland Park, it's not worth doing.

Even people I know at WDI who have visited various Disney parks around the world on their own, seem to simply see things and say "Huh, that's different here," without any considerations for the intent behind them. They're all very good at their isolated jobs, but seldom put it into the context of the bigger whole to understand how the various parts relate to one another. They might just as well be designing parts for an automobile, systems for a factory, or buildings for common use, as opposed to anything in a theme park. And these are the "good ones" who actually enjoy the parks in their free time, unlike so many of the decision-makers that oversee the parks who have no particular passion for their product.

Across the board, it seems like there's so much focus on the "what" that WDI often fails to think about "why" they're doing what they're doing. Beyond just copying things from an unrelated park, it also leads to faux-detail ornamentation that ultimately creates architectural nonsense, like WDW's Ratatouille area facades and the Riviera hotel. There's a fundamental lack of intellectual curiosity and understanding about how all the elements of a designed environment relate to one another to further an idea. They're so focused on the small details that they don't step back to think about whether it actually works together. Too often WDI misses the forest for the trees.

It really says a lot that previous generations of Imagineers were able to better at consistently capturing the spirit of a location from an encyclopedia article and a couple old postcards than the current generation is with lavish research expeditions to real-world locations. As an organization, there is far too little emphasis placed on really understanding why elements are included and how they further the design; everything is just superficial ornamentation to them, easily interchangeable with little regard for a larger purpose.

You are Unpacking a lot with this- this should be in an Imagineering textbook someday- well said