News Big changes coming to EPCOT's Future World?

marni1971

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
rushtest4echo said:
I'm so mad that message boards didn't exist in the 1950's/1960's. I'd love to see the musings of "old school" Disney people who would have thrown fits about Walt's corporate synergy ties.

If a Disney message board existed then:

Disneyland TV Series: "I can't believe this corporate synergy BS, they're plugging some theme park here on our family TV night instead of showing us the TV shows, stories and movies that are appopriate for the TV medium".

Sleeping Beauty Castle: "I can't believe this corporate synergy BS, building a castle from a film that won't be released for years". Why not just do Cinderlla since people already know it. In fact, why does it need to be a princess castle at all? Can't it just be a castle without some idiot thinking it needs to sell merch from the princess line or plug a new movie? What is Walt thinking? Creatively bankrupt"

Tomorrowland: "What the hell is this? Corporate sponsorship of the future exhibit land? Budget cuts everywhere- Disney should be embarrassed to have this place open. Re-used movie sets, corporate showcases and no real rides. Yay, a car ride and a motor boat- how futuristic."

Jungle Cruise: "Oh god, what a rip of African Queen. It's not even their own property and they're just shamelessly cashing in on the exotic craze. How shortsighted."

King Arthur's Carousel: "Great, we can't even have a classic European carousel without slapping some IP on it."

Storybookland: "But I liked Canal Boats of the World, it always had a line. Now they've ruined it with stupid IP, what a waste. Never visiting Disneyland ever again, they've sold out."

Sailing Ship Columbia: "A boat of that size and type would never be in ANY river around America, much less the wild west. This is just stupid, it's as bad as putting that Frozen theme on that Norway ride 60 years into the future. The logic just isn't there."

Matterhorn/Skyway: "Oh yay, a wild mouse in a box. No theming, no story, out of place and ugly. It ruins the view of the castle. These architects and WED are idiots with no foresight- this forever alters and destroys the sightlines."

Swiss Family Treehouse: "Wow, a stupid walkthrough with another IP slapped on. How exciting, where's the E-ticket?"

Tiki Room: "Oh god, singing birds on something that's not even a ride. And it's sponsored by an airline company, how shameless. Will Walt ever stop whoring out his attractions to sponsors???"

1964 World's Fair: "OMG Walt is so cheap. He never builds anything without someone else ponying up the dough. Then he has the nerve to move/replicate/clone those rides here to Disneyland. Disney used to care about innovation, now they just mindlessly clone these rides years later and those rubes in the general public lap it up. I can't believe how cheap Walt is."

Pirates of the Caribbean: "So for some reason Pirates are in New Orleans and the Caribbean at the same time, next to an antebellum Mansion on one side, the wild west on two other sides and a treehouse on the other- great job theming guys. What a joke."
Click to expand...
Was Jungle Cruise IP based?
Was PotC IP based?
Mansion?
Space Mountain?
Peoplemover?
ITIS?
M2M?
Country Bears?
CoP?
IYHW?

And so on...
 
R

rushtest4echo

Well-Known Member
marni1971 said:
Was Jungle Cruise IP based?
Was PotC IP based?
Mansion?
Space Mountain?
Peoplemover?
ITIS?
M2M?
Country Bears?
CoP?
IYHW?

And so on...
Click to expand...

That's not relevant to the point I was making.



And there's a difference between corporate synergy and IP- both of which have always existed in the Disney empire. You're well enough versed in the industry to know that Disney's credited with creating and exploiting this model UNDER WALT- which is what has made them the most cherished, respected, and strongest brand on earth. This exact mix of multiple media sources all being stitched together.

Is Everest IP based?
And Soarin?
And Roaring Rapids?
And Mystic Manor?
And Grizzly Gulch?

And so on...


And some of Disney's most successful attractions ACROSS ALL TIMEFRAMES have been IP based including:
The castles
Everything in Fantasyland
Everything in Toontown
Everything in Disney MGM/Hollywood Studios
Splash Mountain
Indiana Jones Adventure
Star Tours
Tower of Terror
Tron
The Great Movie Ride
Winnie the Pooh

And of course the rides inspired by contemporary (for their time) trends or crazes or movies such as 3rd Man on the Mountain or Davy Crockett or African Queen.

There's just no time period throughout the Disney Park's history where this wasn't going on. Is it more common now? Sure. But there's no correlation between having an IP for an attraction and its overall quality. The same goes for IP-less attractions which are just as hit and miss.
 
michmousefan

michmousefan

Well-Known Member
rushtest4echo said:
I'm so mad that message boards didn't exist in the 1950's/1960's. I'd love to see the musings of "old school" Disney people who would have thrown fits about Walt's corporate synergy ties.

If a Disney message board existed then:

Disneyland TV Series: "I can't believe this corporate synergy BS, they're plugging some theme park here on our family TV night instead of showing us the TV shows, stories and movies that are appopriate for the TV medium".

Sleeping Beauty Castle: "I can't believe this corporate synergy BS, building a castle from a film that won't be released for years". Why not just do Cinderlla since people already know it. In fact, why does it need to be a princess castle at all? Can't it just be a castle without some idiot thinking it needs to sell merch from the princess line or plug a new movie? What is Walt thinking? Creatively bankrupt"

Tomorrowland: "What the hell is this? Corporate sponsorship of the future exhibit land? Budget cuts everywhere- Disney should be embarrassed to have this place open. Re-used movie sets, corporate showcases and no real rides. Yay, a car ride and a motor boat- how futuristic."

Jungle Cruise: "Oh god, what a rip of African Queen. It's not even their own property and they're just shamelessly cashing in on the exotic craze. How shortsighted."

King Arthur's Carousel: "Great, we can't even have a classic European carousel without slapping some IP on it."

Storybookland: "But I liked Canal Boats of the World, it always had a line. Now they've ruined it with stupid IP, what a waste. Never visiting Disneyland ever again, they've sold out."

Sailing Ship Columbia: "A boat of that size and type would never be in ANY river around America, much less the wild west. This is just stupid, it's as bad as putting that Frozen theme on that Norway ride 60 years into the future. The logic just isn't there."
...
Click to expand...
While the current IP craze is formidable, your point is well taken that 1) it's impossible to make everyone happy [in any era] and 2) IP is always going to be around as a creative short-cut for certain attractions & shows.
 
R

rushtest4echo

Well-Known Member
marni1971 said:
As I've said elsewhere before; IP and original content have always made the parks what they are. But it was a healthy balance. Now the balance has swung far too far towards IP.
Click to expand...

Point taken, and I agree. Still don't see any correlation between IP and the quality of attractions though.

AndrewsJ said:
Have you visited Tokyo Disneysea?
Click to expand...

Have you????

They've shoved IP into every orifice at TDS since its opening. Disneysea Symphony, Porto Paradiso, Braviseamo and Mythica added characters for no reason other than guests demanded it. Guests demanded character meet trails in the Lost River Delta, which is next to Indiana Jones (another IP). American Waterfront has Turtle Talk, A Table is Waiting, Big Band Beat, Toy Story Mania, Newsies store, Steamboat Mickeys store and McDucks store. Arabian Coast has Magic Lamp Theater and Jasmine's Flying Carpets. Even Caravan Carousel has IP. Sindbad is obviously IP too, though not Disney's. Mermaid Lagoon is entirely IP based and still a great little land. Port Discovery has a ride that is receiving an IP overlay as I type this. Even Mysterious Island is at it's core someone elses IP- but it's still IP. Best use of IP ever, but still IP.

If you don't think DisneySea has a great combination of IP and non-IP then you're on the wrong side of that argument. If anything, Disneysea has more IP in it than DCA or Animal Kingdom (the two other largely IP-free parks that opened around the same time).
 
Last edited:
R

rushtest4echo

Well-Known Member
marni1971 said:
If that was your point, I misunderstood, apologise and I agree. A good attraction should stand on its own two feet regardless of IP. Only a few (imho ToT, Star Tours) are improved by the chosen IP.
Click to expand...

All very true. I'm not exactly thrilled at the ratio of IP:Non IP in the parks lately. But I'd still take a well done IP attraction over a bad one without IP or no attraction at all. Right now, those seem like the available options given consumer demand and current management, so I'll gratefully accept expansions and new rides that involve IP over nothing at all which seemed to be the other choice over the last 10+ years.

Tower of Terror can kiss its Twilight Zone IP goodbye tomorrow as long as Shiriki Utundu and company move right in instead of Starlord! ;)
 
Earl Sweatpants

Earl Sweatpants

Well-Known Member
rushtest4echo said:
All very true. I'm not exactly thrilled at the ratio of IP:Non IP in the parks lately. But I'd still take a well done IP attraction over a bad one without IP or no attraction at all. Right now, those seem like the available options given consumer demand and current management, so I'll gratefully accept expansions and new rides that involve IP over nothing at all which seemed to be the other choice over the last 10+ years.

Tower of Terror can kiss its Twilight Zone IP goodbye tomorrow as long as Shiriki Utundu and company move right in instead of Starlord! ;)
Click to expand...
Just for my own curiosity, can you list some non-IP rides you find poorly done?
 
R

rushtest4echo

Well-Known Member
Earl Sweatpants said:
Just for my own curiosity, can you list some non-IP rides you find poorly done?
Click to expand...

CTX was hot garbage before Dinoland moved in, and it wasn't improved at all. (to me, I know others will disagree).
Dinoland as a whole.
The new Imagination isn't worth riding.
El Rio del Tiempo was superbad, and is actually improved with IP. Same with Maelstrom/Frozen (again, I know most disagree but I actually ride those rides now and never did before).
Tomorrowland Speedway is a pretty big offender too.
Stormrider and Aquatopia are silly and fun, but pretty poor attractions in the end. Stormrider is being addressed with an IP.
Raging Spirits has great eye candy at the entrance, but the queue and ride itself aren't very well done at all.
Oh Canada is and always has been turrible.
Going back in time, plenty of Tomorrowland attractions free of IP have been awful (looking at you Dreamflight and Meet the World). Body Wars was weird, as was most of Wonders of Life. All of it would be perfect for an Inside Out overlay that would very likely improve the product.

DCA 1.0 vs 2.0 is probably best example. All of the original Paradise Pier and Bountiful Valley were painfully bad. Stuff like Orange Stinger becomming an IP ride was a godsend actually. Same for Golden Dreams vs Mermaid and Superstar Pinto vs Monsters Inc. Cars land, World of Color, Tower of Terror and other IP centric stuff has improved DCA vastly. Grizzly is good, not great, and would be vastly improved with animatronics even if they were Brother Bear ones.

There are other examples too, but for the most part regardless of time period, IP on a ride doesn't diminish the quality. In my opinion, it's served to make some attractions much stronger. Good/bad IP/non IP attractions are scattered around the Disney parks empire and I see little difference in the quality between them. Again, I'm not thrilled to see IP everywhere, but it's not making the ride worse in most cases.
 
Earl Sweatpants

Earl Sweatpants

Well-Known Member
rushtest4echo said:
CTX was hot garbage before Dinoland moved in, and it wasn't improved at all. (to me, I know others will disagree).
Dinoland as a whole.
The new Imagination isn't worth riding.
El Rio del Tiempo was superbad, and is actually improved with IP. Same with Maelstrom/Frozen (again, I know most disagree but I actually ride those rides now and never did before).
Tomorrowland Speedway is a pretty big offender too.
Stormrider and Aquatopia are silly and fun, but pretty poor attractions in the end. Stormrider is being addressed with an IP.
Raging Spirits has great eye candy at the entrance, but the queue and ride itself aren't very well done at all.
Oh Canada is and always has been turrible.
Going back in time, plenty of Tomorrowland attractions free of IP have been awful (looking at you Dreamflight and Meet the World). Body Wars was weird, as was most of Wonders of Life. All of it would be perfect for an Inside Out overlay that would very likely improve the product.

DCA 1.0 vs 2.0 is probably best example. All of the original Paradise Pier and Bountiful Valley were painfully bad. Stuff like Orange Stinger becomming an IP ride was a godsend actually. Same for Golden Dreams vs Mermaid and Superstar Pinto vs Monsters Inc. Cars land, World of Color, Tower of Terror and other IP centric stuff has improved DCA vastly. Grizzly is good, not great, and would be vastly improved with animatronics even if they were Brother Bear ones.

There are other examples too, but for the most part regardless of time period, IP on a ride doesn't diminish the quality. In my opinion, it's served to make some attractions much stronger. Good/bad IP/non IP attractions are scattered around the Disney parks empire and I see little difference in the quality between them. Again, I'm not thrilled to see IP everywhere, but it's not making the ride worse in most cases.
Click to expand...
You're correct. Some non-IP rides are hot garbage.
Though I'm a Maelstrom purist, I do agree with nearly everything you said. IP needs to be utilized correctly and when done, can only enhance its attractions. Disney just needs to focus on ride quality first and foremost instead of trying to force something to "work".
 
MisterPenguin

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
rushtest4echo said:
Point taken, and I agree. Still don't see any correlation between IP and the quality of attractions though.
Click to expand...

marni1971 said:
A good attraction should stand on its own two feet regardless of IP. Only a few (imho ToT, Star Tours) are improved by the chosen IP.
Click to expand...

Let's not forget that back in the days of Walt, he had a lot less IPs under their corporate belt than they do today. If Walt had all the IPs that the corporation owns today, perhaps we would have seen a Disneyland that was almost entirely based on Disney IPs.

It's a theoretical question for sure, because AFAIK, there is no statement from Walt on the record about what a good mix of IPs v. non-IPs is. But he certainly was a master at appropriating public domain IPs for movies... and also for park attractions, like his use of Mark Twain and Tom Sawyer.

In a theme park, every ride has a story, otherwise, it'd just be a carnival ride. For rides where a Disney IP fit, it was IP'd. For rides that didn't have a Disney IP, a fitting public domain one was used (and then Disney got around later trying to make that IP into a movie with varying degrees of success). The number of rides with a truly generic story were not a lot. And as time went on under Walt, became fewer.

I agree with you both that an attraction has to be good in and of itself regardless of the IP. And an Disney IP overlay can't make a bad ride good. But, I'm not on board with you @marni1971 that there needs to be something of "an appropriate mix" of IP v. non-IP. If the Disney IPs work, great, even if it upsets the 'mix.' Though, I think we both agree it shouldn't be 'forced' such that it's out of place or an attempt to make sub-par work palatable.
 
R

rushtest4echo

Well-Known Member
marni1971 said:
El Rios storyline seemed to go above most guests heads. And that was before things started to be dumbed down.
Click to expand...

Story wasn't my issue though. I really only ride it for two scenes now, one of which was there before. As a whole I used to consider El Rio not worth riding, and now I ride it quite a bit. Same with the boat ride next door. :)
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom