All things Knotts Berry Farm

Rich T

Well-Known Member
We will agree to disagree that today's boardwalk matches the theming and experience of Corkscrew, Sky Jump, Cycle Chase, and Gasoline Alley.
I agree Airfield had better theming and atmosphere. Ride-wise, however, Corkscrew was a super-short prototype, and Cycle Chase had technical issues (which was a bummer, because it was a great showpiece addition). I’m just saying that Boardwalk’s got a solid lineup, and could be as charming as Airfield with some more theming and prettying-up. It just needs some love.
 

cmwade77

Well-Known Member
I loved The Haunted Shack, but if it ever returns, it would have to be a drastically rethought experience. The original had the guests navigating severely tilted rooms to throw off accurate perception. Today, if one guest twisted an ankle or felt dizzy, they’d cry all the way to the Dewey, Cheatem & Howe law firm.
Too bad someone doesn't do that to force Knott's to fix some accessibility issues, such as the fact that many restaurants are completely inaccessible when the doors are closed when they can be easily fixed with a push to open button. There will obviously be some things Knott's can't fix, but there is a lot they can with minimal expense. Overall Knott's is nice, but there are things that need to improve in terms of accessibility, but then there are other ways that they do better than other theme parks with accesibility, but that doesn't mean they can't improve.
 

cmwade77

Well-Known Member
The line is drawn in Chapter 2 of the 2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design and respective chapter of the state building accessibility codes. Chapter 2 covers the scoping requirements for different types of facilities. Section 240.1 Exception 3. reads "Amusement attractions shall not be required to comply with 240." This scoping exception is repeated verbatim in California Building Standards Code 11B-240.1. For reference, new rides are covered under Section 234.

The US Access Board, in their guides for recreational facilities, defines an "amusement attraction" as "any facility, or portion of a facility, located within an amusement park or theme park, that provides amusement without the use of an amusement device. Examples include, but are not limited to, fun houses, barrels, and other attractions without seats."
There are actually a lot of exceptions to that clause, it gets tricky. Basically to sum it up, is if there is any way it can be made accessible without making it a completely different experience, it must be done. Alternative experiences can be acceptable in some cases, such as the alternative experience at Finding Nemo Subs at Disneyland. Or if there is say a barrel roll, then there would need to be a way for someone in a wheelchair to bypass the no accessible portion(s) while still experiencing everything else.

That being said, it would be possible to do something like this that is accessible, it would just require more creativity.
 

cmwade77

Well-Known Member
A Knotts version of Mystic Manor but themed to the original Haunted Shack would rock. However, I don't think Cedar Fair has that kind of money.
Actually, Cedar Fair does have the money to do something like that, what they don't have is the money to get the rights for more IPs. But something like this could be done, although they would have to be careful not to violate any parents, etc. That Disney might have.
 

NobodyElse

Well-Known Member
Actually, Cedar Fair does have the money to do something like that, what they don't have is the money to get the rights for more IPs. But something like this could be done, although they would have to be careful not to violate any parents, etc. That Disney might have.

I wasn't clear. I was suggesting that it might be interesting for Disney to attempt an attraction like this utilizing one of their properties.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
There are actually a lot of exceptions to that clause, it gets tricky. Basically to sum it up, is if there is any way it can be made accessible without making it a completely different experience, it must be done. Alternative experiences can be acceptable in some cases, such as the alternative experience at Finding Nemo Subs at Disneyland. Or if there is say a barrel roll, then there would need to be a way for someone in a wheelchair to bypass the no accessible portion(s) while still experiencing everything else.

That being said, it would be possible to do something like this that is accessible, it would just require more creativity.
Where are these exceptions to Exception 3?
 

Phroobar

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Actually, Cedar Fair does have the money to do something like that, what they don't have is the money to get the rights for more IPs. But something like this could be done, although they would have to be careful not to violate any parents, etc. That Disney might have.
Cedar Fair doesn't need an IP for a spook house. Knott's ghost town is good enough to theme it to.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
As I said, basically if you read further, it states that if there is a way to make it accessible without fundementally altering the experience, then it must be made accessible as much as possible.
Read what further? I quoted the entirety of Exception 3 and the Access Board’s definition of “amusement attraction.” Exception 3 is the only time amusement attractions are mentioned in Chapter 2. You said it was in the quoted clause, but it is not, so where else are you claiming this language exists regarding amusement attractions?
 
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Phroobar

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Quite right, but they would also have to make sure they don't run afoul of patents, copyrights, etc. On the ride concept itself.
That is just part of any attraction build process. I don't think that is a huge portion of any attraction budget. Besides things like trackless vehicles and projections are not exactly a new thing. Cedar Fair could even build a Soar'n type ride. Other places have had that kind of ride for years.
 

Phroobar

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
A Message from Richard Zimmerman, Chief Executive Officer,
Cedar Fair Entertainment Company

Dear Valued Guest,

Cedar Fair's highest priority is always the safety of our guests and associates. We know you continue to hear and see news reports about the coronavirus, or COVID-19, and some of its effects around the world. The Cedar Fair team is closely monitoring this evolving situation and are in regular contact with health agencies for information and guidance.
All Cedar Fair properties intend to welcome guests in accordance with our published schedules, and we continue to implement preventive measures as recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) as well as our own health and hygiene protocols. All our parks and resorts have high standards of cleanliness, which assists with illness prevention. We employ rigorous sanitation standards and robust cleaning procedures, including:
  • Extensive and ongoing training for associates on maintaining a safe and hygienic workplace and environment for our guests;
  • Specified intervals for frequent cleaning and disinfection of targeted areas throughout the day;
  • Numerous and accessible handwashing facilities and hand sanitizer locations;
  • Quick response to spills, trash and other situations;
  • Daily and frequent sanitation procedures for restrooms, kitchens, dining surfaces, benches and trash cans;
  • Daily and frequent cleaning and "wash down" of outdoor locations, including walkways and queue lines
The leadership team is communicating with our associates about illness prevention; this includes guidance issued by the CDC. The CDC recommends everyday preventive actions to help stop the spread of germs. The CDC provides more detailed coronavirus information on its website at www.cdc.gov.
As always, we maintain close relationships with local, state, national and international public health authorities. We take their guidance when additional preventive measures are deemed necessary.
Thank you for your continued support and trust in Cedar Fair's family of parks and resorts.
Sincerely,
Richard Zimmerman
Chief Executive Officer
Cedar Fair Entertainment Company
 

Missing20K

Well-Known Member
There are actually a lot of exceptions to that clause, it gets tricky. Basically to sum it up, is if there is any way it can be made accessible without making it a completely different experience, it must be done.
This is incorrect.

From the "Advisory" commentary of Section 234.1
Some amusement rides and attractions that have unique designs and features are not addressed by these requirements. In those situations, these requirements are to be applied to the extent possible. An example of an amusement ride not specifically addressed by these requirements includes "virtual reality" rides where the device does not move through a fixed course within a defined area. An accessible route must be provided to these rides. Where an attraction or ride has unique features for which there are no applicable scoping provisions, then a reasonable number, but at least one, of the features must be located on an accessible route. Where there are appropriate technical provisions, they must be applied to the elements that are covered by the scoping provisions.

They are only required to have a minimum of one element be seen by the accessible path. Only if there are already available technical provisions that would enhance the ADA experience are they required to be used. Nothing "extra" is necessary nor required by the code.

In other words, there is no requirement for an attraction to be made accessible by "any way it can" and that it "must be done". Even if the experience is significantly different. "...[T]hese requirements are to be applied to the extent possible."

Mmm, love me some good Code chat.
 

cmwade77

Well-Known Member
Actually there are some things that do require it to be so, but a lot will also depend on the plan checker. I have seen plancheckers require bathrooms on the second story of an apartment unit be required to be fully accessible, despite the fact that there was no elevator to reach the second story of the apartment unit and one wasn't required.

And even if code doesn't require it, there would be lawsuits over a new attraction not having accessibility and defending against those would cost money.
 

cmwade77

Well-Known Member
A Message from Richard Zimmerman, Chief Executive Officer,
Cedar Fair Entertainment Company

Dear Valued Guest,

Cedar Fair's highest priority is always the safety of our guests and associates. We know you continue to hear and see news reports about the coronavirus, or COVID-19, and some of its effects around the world. The Cedar Fair team is closely monitoring this evolving situation and are in regular contact with health agencies for information and guidance.
All Cedar Fair properties intend to welcome guests in accordance with our published schedules, and we continue to implement preventive measures as recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) as well as our own health and hygiene protocols. All our parks and resorts have high standards of cleanliness, which assists with illness prevention. We employ rigorous sanitation standards and robust cleaning procedures, including:
  • Extensive and ongoing training for associates on maintaining a safe and hygienic workplace and environment for our guests;
  • Specified intervals for frequent cleaning and disinfection of targeted areas throughout the day;
  • Numerous and accessible handwashing facilities and hand sanitizer locations;
  • Quick response to spills, trash and other situations;
  • Daily and frequent sanitation procedures for restrooms, kitchens, dining surfaces, benches and trash cans;
  • Daily and frequent cleaning and "wash down" of outdoor locations, including walkways and queue lines
The leadership team is communicating with our associates about illness prevention; this includes guidance issued by the CDC. The CDC recommends everyday preventive actions to help stop the spread of germs. The CDC provides more detailed coronavirus information on its website at www.cdc.gov.
As always, we maintain close relationships with local, state, national and international public health authorities. We take their guidance when additional preventive measures are deemed necessary.
Thank you for your continued support and trust in Cedar Fair's family of parks and resorts.
Sincerely,
Richard Zimmerman
Chief Executive Officer
Cedar Fair Entertainment Company
In other words, they know that other business depend on them operating and they understand the impact of shutting down a major theme park could be devastating to the community and in the long term cause more disease and deaths than simply stating open and adjusting some operations.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Actually there are some things that do require it to be so, but a lot will also depend on the plan checker. I have seen plancheckers require bathrooms on the second story of an apartment unit be required to be fully accessible, despite the fact that there was no elevator to reach the second story of the apartment unit and one wasn't required.

And even if code doesn't require it, there would be lawsuits over a new attraction not having accessibility and defending against those would cost money.
So you can’t actually quote the section you said should be read? Is this another part of the secret code? Accessibility doesn’t just mean people using wheelchairs which is why areas outside of an accessible route can and do still have scoping requirements. Apartments can be especially complex as they often also have additional requirements laid out in the Fair Housing Act Design Manual.
 

Phroobar

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
In other words, they know that other business depend on them operating and they understand the impact of shutting down a major theme park could be devastating to the community and in the long term cause more disease and deaths than simply stating open and adjusting some operations.
Cedar Fair isn't as afraid of lawsuits like Disney is.
 

Emmanuel

Well-Known Member
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Missing20K

Well-Known Member
Actually there are some things that do require it to be so, but a lot will also depend on the plan checker. I have seen plancheckers require bathrooms on the second story of an apartment unit be required to be fully accessible, despite the fact that there was no elevator to reach the second story of the apartment unit and one wasn't required.

And even if code doesn't require it, there would be lawsuits over a new attraction not having accessibility and defending against those would cost money.
Accessibility applies to stairways too. Not having an elevator means zilch when it comes to an accessible bathroom. Believe it or not, disabled people are not all confined to wheelchairs.
 

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