Accused of Pizza Flyer Scam at Dolphin.

[Pioneer Hall]

Had is not the right word. There is almost always another way. However, in some cases the most convenient way is past guest rooms.

I just don't think this is a black and white issue. If someone like yourself was walking to the Dolphin from Epcot, and ducked into the inside corridor because it was 99 degrees outside, the security should not be rushing to detain you. Especially if the outside door to the hallway does not say, Guests Only.

Thousands of people walk past guest rooms daily at Disney Resorts, and there is no way to tell who is a guest, who is a guest of a guest, who is using the hallway as a shortcut to a resturant. All of these type of people have essentially the same demeanor. It is up to security to weed out those people who seem up to no good. My only point was, a kid with a camera and and AP, taking pictures is not up to no good.

But, in security's mind the OP was acting suspiciously. Going to different and floors and walking the halls looks suspicious, especially when there are various other people doing it at the same time. As was said, the OP was in the wrong place at the wrong time...but that doesn't mean that it was a great idea regardless. Also, like I have said before, just because it might be more convenient to walk through the insides, doesn't mean they want you to. That is why most of those doors are key card access doors after a certain time of the day. Resorts don't want you walking near the rooms unless you are staying there. All the things that the public would need to access are almost always found in a main area away from any rooms and it is for this reason. The last thing a hotel wants is to jeopardize the safety or security of their guests. The bad PR and resulting backlash could severely hurt their profits.

 

[Polydweller]

Also, you are right. The best way to curtail this would be to make access to guest floors only by Key Card. Short of this, it is up to security personal to use their best judgement. And in this case, they goofed.

Well, there are two things with this. It's always difficult balance between guest security and openness. If get too restrictive then guests start complaining that its like they are in a prison setting. Too open and then they fell insecure. It's harder than it appears to get it right.

The second is that people are very courteous. They will hold the door open if someone yells asking to wait for them, or if someone shows up at the same time. The flyer distributer just waits for those opportunities and easily gets access. Have seen it a lot at the hotel here. Locks to corridors don't work as well as they should because of these type of guest actions.

The best way to get rid of the scammers us to educate people to stop phoning the numbers. If there's no money in the scam there is no motivation to do it.

 

[Phonedave]

Had is not the right word. There is almost always another way. However, in some cases the most convenient way is past guest rooms.

I just don't think this is a black and white issue. If someone like yourself was walking to the Dolphin from Epcot, and ducked into the inside corridor because it was 99 degrees outside, the security should not be rushing to detain you. Especially if the outside door to the hallway does not say, Guests Only.

Thousands of people walk past guest rooms daily at Disney Resorts, and there is no way to tell who is a guest, who is a guest of a guest, who is using the hallway as a shortcut to a resturant. All of these type of people have essentially the same demeanor. It is up to security to weed out those people who seem up to no good. My only point was, a kid with a camera and and AP, taking pictures is not up to no good.

But the OP already stated he was not just passing though. He was looking for balcony or window access that may or may not have existed. He was searching around the upper guest room areas where there is clearly nothing - no outside access, no pass though, no shops, no restaruant - nothing but guest rooms (and evidently a view).

If I am watching a security monitor and I see you enter a hall from an outside door (or lobby), walk down the hall, and then leave, I can assume you were passing through.

When I see you go down an upper level hall, looking around, then take the elevator to the next floor and wander up and down THAT hall, then go to the NEXT floor and do the same, I start to wonder just what you are up to.

-dave

 

[Phonedave]

If it was cold or raining perhaps? or deathly hot and you wanted to enjoy the A/C as long as possible?

I'm just providing an example of traveling through resort guest areas to get to a public area! :animwink:

What if I am in front of your house and I want to visit my friend on the next street over. Can I cut though your backyard?

It's faster and easier. I just walk through. You can trust me, I am not going to steal anything. Won't even take a burger off your grill.


-dave

 

[twinnstar]

Ditto. These are not Police Officers. I would have requested that the POLICE be called, or to simply leave. For reference? The Legal definition of arrest is "are you free to leave"? If the answer is no - you are under arrest, and may pursue what you need to if arrested falsely. Even if a Security Guard is NOT an officer - they MAY arrest you, just as any citizen may.

By the way - have you gotten those DL photos back? Who has them? If they are in a computer system - what kind of security does it have?

Not meaning to introduce paranoia... but I would consider looking into this. Even a simple note that the data has been purged will give you a solid backup in the event that the information ever gets loose....

What do you mean a citizen or a security guard can arrest you? They are not a police officer, how do they have that legal right? I'm just wondering cause you def sound like you know what you are talking about, and i am a curious cat

 

[PyroKinesis]

What do you mean a citizen or a security guard can arrest you? They are not a police officer, how do they have that legal right? I'm just wondering cause you def sound like you know what you are talking about, and i am a curious cat

You've never heard of a citizens arrest?

 

[Pioneer Hall]

What do you mean a citizen or a security guard can arrest you? They are not a police officer, how do they have that legal right? I'm just wondering cause you def sound like you know what you are talking about, and i am a curious cat

There is something called "citizen's arrest" where you can technically detain someone. I believe it would apply more in a case of say someone robbing a bank. If a robber goes into a vault and an employee traps them there for the police, that would not be against the law. It would be a bit different if you saw someone shoplift and then you decided to throw them on the ground and tie their hands up. The rules are a bit complex, and it is usually one of those things you don't want to mess with because you can then find yourself on the other side of the situation (getting sued, criminally in trouble, etc).

 

[twinnstar]

You've never heard of a citizens arrest?

Yes, of course ive heard of it, It just doesnt make sense to me. Say I "arrest" a robber, yes - of course, in this case, the robber really did rob someone, so I am doing the right thing. but in OP's case - if a citizen had arrested them, couldn't they just walk away? it wouldnt have the same legal side effects had he walked away from a police officer - is what i was actually asking.

I guess what im trying to say is what legal right does a citizen or a security guard REALLY have to detain you? Even a cop doesnt have a legal right to detain you unless you are under arrest, is what I understand.

Disney Insider - thanks! Thats what I thought - it seems very complicated.

 

[fosse76]

Ditto. These are not Police Officers. I would have requested that the POLICE be called, or to simply leave. For reference? The Legal definition of arrest is "are you free to leave"? If the answer is no - you are under arrest, and may pursue what you need to if arrested falsely. Even if a Security Guard is NOT an officer - they MAY arrest you, just as any citizen may.

ONLY IF they have called the police themselves. If they have not called the police, they cannot legally detain you.

 

[lt94]

Be careful Disney security does have the same powers as regular police not sure of all of them but some even cary guns . Disney was given this power from the Florida gov when Walt asked to build there they also have the power to make their own laws and taxes thru reedy creek improvement district that is disney

 

[Pioneer Hall]

Be careful Disney security does have the same powers as regular police not sure of all of them but some even cary guns . Disney was given this power from the Florida gov when Walt asked to build there they also have the power to make their own laws and taxes thru reedy creek improvement district that is disney

This is simply not true. There is a reason that Disney pays to have the Orange Country Sheriff's department on property, and that is because their guards do not have law enforcement capabilities.

 

[captainkidd]

Who is giving their credit card number over the phone to a pizza shop out of town?! :shrug:

Morons.

 

[Tater48]

Be careful Disney security does have the same powers as regular police not sure of all of them but some even cary guns .

No, they don't. There are private security guards who are armed, but they don't have the same powers, either.

 

[Tater48]

Remember, there are two sides to every story. I wasn't there, so I don't know if this is what actually happened. Most people are relying on the sole story of the OP. He did, actually, voluntarily give them his identification, when he showed them his AP. Lots of information that can be pulled from the name on the back of that thing, and no, if you know the right people, you don't need a warrant to do it.

 

[Disaddict]

Be careful Disney security does have the same powers as regular police not sure of all of them but some even cary guns . Disney was given this power from the Florida gov when Walt asked to build there they also have the power to make their own laws and taxes thru reedy creek improvement district that is disney

As a member of law enforcement for the better part of my life I can personally assure you that Disney security does not have the same powers as regular police. They have the authority to protect property to a certain level and they have the authority to detain but not arrest. And I seriously doubt that Disney would allow any of them to carry. They would have to be registered with Disney to do so which would give Disney the majority of liability if something happened.

 

[hemloc]

As one of the few actual law enforcement officers around here, I think the biggest issue is the detention of a JUVENILE for 30 minutes. That, my friends, is extremely unreasonable and unacceptable. Did they ever allow him to contact his parents or legal guardian? As a federal law enforcement agent, I am not even allowed to interview a juvenile(With the exception of basic biographical info) without a parent or guardian present(Or at least notify!). Hence, why the US Attorneys office rarely prosecutes juveniles(Even for drug smuggling, believe it or not!). Most local officers can conduct a brief initial investigation without parents or guardians present, but if they arrest, they must contact them(Or allow the kid to). Security guards?? Nope. They are no different than average Joe citizen in Florida. With exception of having evidence of shoplifting or theft, the only authority they have is to make a citizens arrest if a crime of violence or felony was committed in their presence. Oh, and I sure hope they recorded everything!! Would suck for them if Jakester made any allegations of abuse or other wrongdoing on their part!! And yes, asking for his D/L and making copies of it is also unreasonable and unacceptable. A law enforcement officer or agent can ask someone to provide it, and they must comply(It is a law), but not make a copy unless there is a darn good reason(i.e., an arrest). The most the security folks had any authority to do was to ask the guy to leave the property. Flyering hotel rooms is not even a crime that would warrant anything of that magnitude. Theft, maybe, but definitely not leaving flyers. At best, for the security folks, this whole thing is what we call a "consensual encounter". Meaning Jakester could just walk off(Out the door of the hotel) at any time, and even tell the guards to go pound sand, and they can do nothing. Heck, I have had consensual encounters with people on the street who did just that. Even run away! And there is nothing I could do about it, other than laugh(Oh, and yell "Run, Forrest, RUN!"). There is no "probable cause" for anything at this point, and certainly no felony was commited(The only way a security guard could legally detain Jakester for ANY period of time). And something else that bugs me: While all this was going on, where were the actual law enforcement agencies? OCSO, Secret Service, FBI even??? I would think that if they were so worried about credit card fraud rings, someone would be on top of it ASAP(At least OCSO in the interim). Did they not call anyone?? And if Jakester did not feel like he could leave of his own free will, then yup, his civil rights were violated. And like I said, being a juvenile makes this a BIG deal. There may be some merit to a lawsuit, actually. Well, based on what Jakester is claiming. I'm sure there is more to the story that we're not hearing, though. No doubt any legal actions would be settled quickly and quietly, though. Of course, legal action could be costly, but some attorneys take on good cases pro bono where they can score a good chunk of change and fees from the defendants. Either way, it's not completely out of the realm of possibility to file a viable deprivation of civil rights suit(also known as false imprisonment). Other than the unlawful detention, here's the main issue(Quoted from Jakester):

I was embarrassed the whole time, because ive been a WDW local vistor (atleast once a month) since 2004, I don't ever wanna show my face in that resort, or even go back to Dolphin (Or swan), When they finally let me go, I felt a loss of privacy when walking thru the boardwalk n back to my truck because i knew they where watching everything i did, and i just felt watched.

I do believe that falls under 'emotional distress'. Of course, if Jakester has been back to WDW 10 times since then, that's not gonna fly so well, lol.. Anyhoo, that's just the short answer!! And toot toot, watch me on this season of Border Wars (Hint: I don't wear green or blue, or any uniform for that matter! Sorry, I couldn't resist!)!!!

As a member of law enforcement for the better part of my life I can personally assure you that Disney security does not have the same powers as regular police. They have the authority to protect property to a certain level and they have the authority to detain but not arrest. And I seriously doubt that Disney would allow any of them to carry. They would have to be registered with Disney to do so which would give Disney the majority of liability if something happened.

Totally right on. Not to mention, the mere presence of a weapon on a security guard leads to a whole new can of worms as to perception that they have more authority than they actually do. Won't even get into what happens if they actually would use that weapon!

 

[lazyboy97o]

And it happens so often, they have to have printed notices in the rooms to ignore them.

The hotels are concerned about the scam flyers, but they are also concerned about flyers from legitimate local pizzerias. The hotels often have deals in place where certain pizzerias are advertised by the hotel, for a fee, or the hotel receives something when a guest orders. A guest ordering from a legitimate flyer gets the hotel nothing.

I don't agree with how Jakester was treated but, I would like to think if someone was wandering the corridors with no obvious purpose, of the resort I was staying in, security would be aware of it and poliety intervene. This person (not Jakester!) could be checking the place out for criminal reasons.

I understand and my point is not referring to you, but if there is a security guard watching a camera of a person roaming around who is obviously not a guest it should be investigated, a passing staff member would not be suspicious but security watching on a camera would be, BUT not in the manner you were treated.

How do you determine who is a guest? I explore the hallways of every hotel at which I stay. I am curious to see how the halls are laid out, differences in layout or carpeting, etc. I am even the type to check out the vending machines on several floors as there are plenty of times where what is available differs between floors.

Once the police officer detains you, they are going to be suspicious of you because you did not initially cooperate, and walked out as soon as the request for ID was made.

Exercising your rights of refusal are not grounds for probably cause, much less an assumption of guilt. And as was stated, the police officer would have to be very careful about dealing with a juvenile.

 

[Kobe!!]

After only reading the first 25 posts of this thread....

1. Why aren't you in school if you are "16"?
2. Where are your parents?

wt...:shrug:

 

[KeithVH]

After only reading the first 25 posts of this thread....

1. Why aren't you in school if you are "16"?
2. Where are your parents?

wt...:shrug:

What does that have to do with anything? Are you a truant officer to enforce what rules YOU think someone else's child should be following?

 

[dave&di]

The hotels are concerned about the scam flyers, but they are also concerned about flyers from legitimate local pizzerias. The hotels often have deals in place where certain pizzerias are advertised by the hotel, for a fee, or the hotel receives something when a guest orders. A guest ordering from a legitimate flyer gets the hotel nothing.



How do you determine who is a guest? I explore the hallways of every hotel at which I stay. I am curious to see how the halls are laid out, differences in layout or carpeting, etc. I am even the type to check out the vending machines on several floors as there are plenty of times where what is available differs between floors. Exercising your rights of refusal are not grounds for probably cause, much less an assumption of guilt. And as was stated, the police officer would have to be very careful about dealing with a juvenile.

If I was a security guard sitting at my desk eating a donut and watching the CCTV and a person was patrolling corridors (although innocently) I would assume there is a 'possibility' of something suspicious happening.

As a paying guest of this resort I would like to think a member of staff would be aware of such activity. Having a 'polite word' with them is fair enough.

IMO non resort guests should be be wandering around corridors, feel free to explore lobbies, restaurants etc, but being overly nosey looks suspicious, instead of studying carperts, visit a theme park, I hear there are some good ones in the area! :lol: