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[UNCgolf]

And WDW has more third-party off-site attractions for people doing long vacations.

While this is true if you're solely talking about theme parks, there's far more to do in the LA area than Orlando could ever dream of offering if you're on a long vacation.

Of course that's also why I've never been to Disneyland -- there are too many other interesting things to do when I've been in/around LA. I guess it's a double-edged sword.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Genie isn’t to “soften the blow of losing fastpass+”

Fastpass+ was no big deal…and didn’t work from an operational perspective.

But we all know the backup is gonna come in and throw 3 tds…ama right?!?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

In this case I was referring to the ease and a availability of cheap air travel and international tourism. Building parks in asian makes for a cheaper option than having Asian tourists flood the US parks. That might not be much of an issue for awhile so building more international parks doesn't make sense.




So all of Tokyo's capacity problems were solved?

Tokyo is insanely popular and never had more capacity than average demand. Not so in Florida for roughy 35 years.

And “globalization” as it was coined was the 90’s clintonian spin on outsourcing labor to sweatshops to make robber baron profits at home. It’s all about “messaging”

As far as Disney parks go…there isn’t really more of significant increase by percentage in international visitors over the years.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The point is, the Florida parks have a lot more disparity.

The only one of the three in their current state that I believe could stand a chance of surviving on its own without the Magic Kingdom in the Orlando competetive landscape is probably Animal Kingdom and people would still say it's not a full day park.

WDW, across four parks, has roughly the same number of attractions that Disneyland does between two. (one of which opened well after the last one in WDW) and DL has never had "the blessing of size" and sees nowhere near the number of annual guests.

Why is that?

Dumber customers in larger numbers, Alex?

 

[JoeCamel]

Dumber customers in larger numbers, Alex?

Spike the dole whips with lead - mission accomplished

 

[MrPromey]

Well, don't forget: you're only counting *rides* when you say 'attractions.'

It's true both resorts have the same number of rides, but WDW has a lot more attractions. It has a zoo, a world showcase evoking a World's Fair, and DHS is supposed to have a lot of shows. WDW also has a lot more Disney hotels, golf courses, spas, fireworks. And at one time a lot more parades and nighttime extravaganzas (hopefully, it will again).

And WDW has more third-party off-site attractions for people doing long vacations.

Point taken but at the same time, I’ve never seen World Showcase listed as an attraction on park maps… and you could just as easially include the boardwalk atmosphere of Pixar Pier and the rockwork of Radiator springs if placemaking is going to be an attraction in and of itself.

Thst said, I’m going by what both list as an attraction. If we go by rides only, the difference is worse.

I say this with awareness that before they were willing to admit Main Street USA was nothing but a big junk shop over here (it’s still in it’s classic form over there) they listed the front locker and stroller rental as an attraction to pad that category on the maps for attractions in that “land”.

Also, if golf courses, resorts, and third party off-property attractions were included in the cost of admission, I’d consider including all that in this discussion but since it’s not, it seems a little disengenuous to include all of that.

… especially with the third party stuff when the whole original idea of WDW was to create a buffer that would prevent all of that from encroaching on the resort experience.

One last thought, I don’t know if you’ve ever been to DL but I’ll say in my experience, the quality of their live entertainment - what they have of it - is a higher caliber (Additions under Chapek for Marvel not withstanding) and the last time I was there, things that were long cut from live entertainment here (like the diamond/ruby horseshoe) were still humming over there.

No offense to the equity performers in FL but I’m guessing the quality difference has to do with who’s living in the area out there looking for that kind of work which offers them a larger pool.

I’m guessing the cuts to our streetmosphere and live entertainment on the other hand, which started well before COVID, are due to them being cheap.

 

[kingdead]

If globalization/the Internet killed anything it was EPCOT. When the place started out, international travel was expensive and involved paper maps and foreign language guidebooks, and if you wanted to learn about another country you could take a book out of the library (if you were lucky enough to have a nice library) or maybe catch a PBS show. The World's Fair concept was a little cheesy but f did provide cultural resources that would otherwise be difficult to access.

Now everyone now has a pocket size personal device that can translate every language and show you almost real time videos from anywhere in the world, and the extended supply chain allows you to order food in the style of most of these places, too. (And if not, you can get knockoffs at the generic American grocery store, as palates have expanded.) Why would I pay to see "France" if I can watch French TV on Netflix, order French ingredients off Amazon, and buy a ticket to Paris for cheaper than Disney World?

I see people complaining about IP in the EPCOT but what's the alternative draw?

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I see people complaining about IP in the EPCOT but what's the alternative draw?

Food and Alcohol... they already have “special events” all year though so I agree IP was inevitable.

I just wish they’d opted for the Alps ride, Mt Fuji ride and other rides that weren’t IP based in world showcase, I can live with IP in the front of the park (because edutainment doesn’t really work when everyone has a super computer and unlimited knowledge in their pocket) but world showcase still has a ton of potential for non IP rides that represent the country they’re based in.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

If globalization/the Internet killed anything it was EPCOT. When the place started out, international travel was expensive and involved paper maps and foreign language guidebooks, and if you wanted to learn about another country you could take a book out of the library (if you were lucky enough to have a nice library) or maybe catch a PBS show. The World's Fair concept was a little cheesy but f did provide cultural resources that would otherwise be difficult to access.

Now everyone now has a pocket size personal device that can translate every language and show you almost real time videos from anywhere in the world, and the extended supply chain allows you to order food in the style of most of these places, too. (And if not, you can get knockoffs at the generic American grocery store, as palates have expanded.) Why would I pay to see "France" if I can watch French TV on Netflix, order French ingredients off Amazon, and buy a ticket to Paris for cheaper than Disney World?

I see people complaining about IP in the EPCOT but what's the alternative draw?

Couldn’t agree more…I’ve said something similar over the years.

Epcot lost its “wow” in the digital age.
The library analogy is perfect…by the way

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Food and Alcohol... they already have “special events” all year though so I agree IP was inevitable.

I just wish they’d opted for the Alps ride, Mt Fuji ride and other rides that weren’t IP based in world showcase, I can live with IP in the front of the park (because edutainment doesn’t really work when everyone has a super computer and unlimited knowledge in their pocket) but world showcase still has a ton of potential for non IP rides that represent the country they’re based in.

Yep…if ip is inevitable…use the expansion pads

 

[lazyboy97o]

Why would I pay to see "France" if I can watch French TV on Netflix, order French ingredients off Amazon, and buy a ticket to Paris for cheaper than Disney World?

Why would I pay to see Moana when I can watch Moana anywhere and for less than a ticket?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

If globalization/the Internet killed anything it was EPCOT. When the place started out, international travel was expensive and involved paper maps and foreign language guidebooks, and if you wanted to learn about another country you could take a book out of the library (if you were lucky enough to have a nice library) or maybe catch a PBS show. The World's Fair concept was a little cheesy but f did provide cultural resources that would otherwise be difficult to access.

Now everyone now has a pocket size personal device that can translate every language and show you almost real time videos from anywhere in the world, and the extended supply chain allows you to order food in the style of most of these places, too. (And if not, you can get knockoffs at the generic American grocery store, as palates have expanded.) Why would I pay to see "France" if I can watch French TV on Netflix, order French ingredients off Amazon, and buy a ticket to Paris for cheaper than Disney World?

I see people complaining about IP in the EPCOT but what's the alternative draw?

Interesting, I had never considered the World Showcase angle. I 100% agree that smartphones killed EPCOT, and I've thought that for awhile, but I've always looked at it from the Future World perspective. Smartphones killed everyone's sense of wonder, and theme park attractions about technology and the future that need to last 20 years can't keep up with devices that update overnight and upgrade every year.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Why would I pay to see Moana when I can watch Moana anywhere and for less than a ticket?

The “answer”…at least for the Wdw clientele? Is that home sucks…so why not spend/focus on your trip? Obsessively.

So that’s the underlying psychology.

 

[el_super]

Even you talk about the mighty ESPN in the past-tense. Was that an accident?

It wasn't. Cable is a dying medium and they are working toward streaming as a way to replace the revenue coming from Cable. Not really all that difficult to see why. Technology moves forward.

As for the amount they're spending on Disney+: they are still first and foremost a studio. A content factory. Their IP business feeds all the other businesses, cable, streaming, theatrical and even the parks. No reason at all to complain that a content factory is making more content. The parks business will always be second to that. Always.

Disney is not trying to preserve access for the middle class. They're not looking to improve customer satisfaction at the cost of profits - they realize that if they **** everyone off, they'll make no profit at all because if they alienate too much of their customer base, they'll be screwed.

You're not really saying anything different here from what I was saying: Disney chooses to keep the prices where they are at, because they want to keep more people happy. They are betting that their wider audience is happier with cheaper access and convoluted pricing schemes than they would be if they just raised prices across the board and improved the experience.

To be completely fair though, Disney has been good at offering better experiences for people who want to pay more: Genie+ being one of them, but you can also count the private parties (paying the same for a few hours of no lines), and even things like the Cruise Line all the way up to Club 33.

Going to the park and paying for a ticket during a "normal" operating day is just a basic entry level experience and Disney keeps it that way because it's better for the overall health of the company to keep people engaged in the brand, and digesting content through the parks, than it is to provide a premium experience.

 

[el_super]

Tokyo is insanely popular and never had more capacity than average demand. Not so in Florida for roughy 35 years.

Tokyo still has capacity issues. New rides are still trending over hour long waits and even character meets are overwhelmed. Not long ago, when they changed Minnie Mouse's look, there was an 11 hour wait to meet her. They adopted Premiere Access to charge more for line skipping and if you're not familiar with the entertainment lottery over there... you should look into it. It's quite a mess.

 

[el_super]

Why would I pay to see Moana when I can watch Moana anywhere and for less than a ticket?

Because when you see Moana at a Disney park, you are seeing the actual on-brand Disney Moana.

If you go see France at Disney, you're seeing the cheap knock-off. Like buying discount store brand cola. It will never be as good as seeing the real thing.

 

[Lilofan]

Tokyo still has capacity issues. New rides are still trending over hour long waits and even character meets are overwhelmed. Not long ago, when they changed Minnie Mouse's look, there was an 11 hour wait to meet her. They adopted Premiere Access to charge more for line skipping and if you're not familiar with the entertainment lottery over there... you should look into it. It's quite a mess.

11 hour wait ? That’s a whole day lost. No thank you.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

If you go see France at Disney, you're seeing the cheap knock-off. Like buying discount store brand cola. It will never be as good as seeing the real thing.

Real Paris is dirty and gross. I'd much rather be in Epcot Paris. I have no illusions about it being the "real thing." I like it because it's not the real thing.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Tokyo still has capacity issues. New rides are still trending over hour long waits and even character meets are overwhelmed. Not long ago, when they changed Minnie Mouse's look, there was an 11 hour wait to meet her. They adopted Premiere Access to charge more for line skipping and if you're not familiar with the entertainment lottery over there... you should look into it. It's quite a mess.

That’s exactly what I’m telling you. Tokyo fills to capacity everyday. It’s got very little space - which is extremely expensive - and the Japanese affinity for Disney product is world renown.

Now compare that to Florida…where they have ample room, money and had CEO’s prior to Bobby that built to grow/accommodate.

If Florida has capacity issues - it’s 1000% by choice. Full stop.

 

[BlakeW39]

@el_super I mean I guess in a really facile and simplistic way, you could say that overcrowding at the parks is a function of low supply and high demand, and that in order to optimize profits Disney should switch demographics from the middle to upper class by increasing ticket prices, thereby achieving the maximum amount of money for an inherently limited total capacity. But if we factor in any more nuance, this idea falls apart.

First of all, the United States economy could not support this business model. The upper class is both too small and too economically diverse to specialize in as a market when you're operating with four mega theme parks.

Secondly, they're theme parks. To the middle class they are a great family destination and so demand is high, but for the upper class-- who can afford real luxury vacations-- they are cheap and gaudy. There isn't any way in which you can plus the theme parks in order to increase their prices enough to compensate for the massive drop in attendance that would be associated with switching from the general public to the upper class specifically.

Plus, you yourself have claimed that Disney is largely popular not because it's actually worth what it costs, but because it's THE American family vacation destination and people feel like they need to take their kids there. But if you switched to the upper class, Disney would necessarily become an unpopular family vacation destination, because it would be too expensive for most American families. The cultural privledges Disney has would then probably be lost, and that's a best case scenario, providing they don't accumulate negative public perceptions due to outpricing normal people.

Plus, this isn't even considering merchandise, food, etc, where Disney gets lots of money from the parks. Decreasing attendance and increasing ticket prices would only reduce profits in these areas, and given how cheap their merch and food are in value terms, they couldn't increase their prices no matter who they're selling to. So they would also need to change their mechandizing strategy, which seems almost as unlikely as the main objective here.