Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[lazyboy97o]

Liver damage.

Is anyone aware of a medication that doesn't have some sort of tradeoff, side effect or hazard? Genuine question for my betters...

Despite whatever level of benefit the vaccine has, there will be those other things. Here's hoping we have seen/experienced the worst of it with the vaccine. I know there was a "high level" of confidence here in this forum.

Taking one Tylenol won’t give you liver damage much less liver damage years from now. Vaccines don’t just sit in your body.

 

[aliceismad]

Although the vaccine is clearly the best thing we have going, it is also seemingly the only thing we have going. We are looking at tripling down on the original formula.

There are at least two different types of vaccines that have been developed - the mRNA model used by Moderna and Pfiser, and also the J&J vaccine. In addition there have been many many tests and studies to try to develop treatments for covid, including monoclonal antibodies, remdesivir, tocilizumab, corticosteroids, plasma, and other means. To say the vaccine is "the only thing we have going" seems a bit uneducated.

 

[correcaminos]

I can certainly understand that. Part of visiting WDW is supposed to be an escape from reality. (Yes, I know that isn't really Rapunzel we are talking to, but it's fun to pretend that it is.) Constantly putting your mask on and off is a reminder of the "real world" and detracts from the experience, even if it isn't physically onerous.

I'm supposed to be meeting with friends in November. One of them wants no masks for that reason. I get it and I don't blame them. They work in health care and need that break. I'll cancel if they want and reschedule for next year. My own personal trips are being planned no matter what. I respect both views (wanting or not wanting masks) really for that emotional reason.

Outside when? Outside in January, sure. Outside in August? Not at all.

I was talking about my June trip. It was 90-95 all the days we were there. So yes, in warm weather, I preferred outside maskless vs inside in some cases with a mask on. As I said the Land was particularly bad.

I didn't say forever, but we should be able to continue "normal life" while not being afraid of wearing a mask around large groups of people. FL still is averaging around 10k cases a day. Perhaps if it was something like 500 I would entertain that conversation.

But that's what normalizing to me is - long term. That's not my end goal here to be real. I don't mean to be anti-mask but really people need to understand that some people aren't always happy with them. That was my point with what I said. Yes, I wear a mask and totally all the time. I don't have to love or want this to be long term. I am willing to wear when needed, but I won't ever agree to normalizing.

Normalize(standard condition or state that does not seem out of the ordinary) yes.Mandate(an official order or commission to do something) everywhere we go other than public transit, no.

Heck they are normalized now. 3 years ago it would of been weird to see a person in the USA wear a mask. 3 year from now even if Covid is gone it's not going to seem weird if people wear masks.

Normalize does not mean long term forced use for everyone, it simply means it will not be out of the ordinary to see masks on 20% of people for any personal reason, pollution, whatever, like in Asia for the last 30 years. Heck, 3 years ago a person wearing a mask might be told to take it off for security issues(like getting through TSA pre covid), that won't be happening in the USA anymore because it's becoming normalized.

Again my post above relates to my point of view. I understand yours. I don't see it as normalizing. I see it as mitigating while needed. They absolutely are not normalized for many people - you may have, but I see so many who fight and do not normalize it. We need to be honest about it. What one of us does as a masker is not what others do.

Example: I was waiting on some gorilla snot today for my kid for the show (google it). As I was waiting at Target I saw a guy walk right past the sign and still didn't bother to have his mask. He was escorted out and he had to find a mask. It's not normalized for all. Only for some. I hope that made sense.

During a pandemic it is normalized. Maybe we can during certain situations but as of right now as a whole, we will not have it normalized in the way you are thinking. People are fighting it too much.

I'm kind of grumpy today and I'm sorry. I saw the news of the kids vaccine as great and a hopeful way to help and yet I've been seeing a lot of negativity and excuses to not vaccinate more. Oh btw vaccinated are spreading just as much as unvaccinated and such. I'm honestly tired of this all.

We have a show in a few week and I worry we'll be shut down because adults have made this so much about a fight than it should be. I'm honestly okay with wearing a mask even though I hate it, but we need to be real here. People suck with masking - it will never be normalized here in the US by all or even enough. It's disappointing. So is not being able to see my family at the holidays due to a no travel order by a doc (cancer)

 

[Club34]

Taking one Tylenol won’t give you liver damage much less liver damage years from now. Vaccines don’t just sit in your body.

Didn't claim any of that.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Didn't claim any of that.

Then what are “those other things”?

 

[Club34]

There are at least two different types of vaccines that have been developed - the mRNA model used by Moderna and Pfiser, and also the J&J vaccine. In addition there have been many many tests and studies to try to develop treatments for covid, including monoclonal antibodies, remdesivir, tocilizumab, corticosteroids, plasma, and other means. To say the vaccine is "the only thing we have going" seems a bit uneducated.

First off, your insulting tone is completely unnecessary.

The mRNA vaccine is the most widely taken is it not? And it is the most singularly focused intervention is it not? Targeting a specific aspect of original covid? And while antibody and other treatment exist, at least in my area and the hospital where I work, they are not widely used. Certainly not on a level of the vaccine and on a level that matches the number of infections. The vast number of covid positive patients are simply sent home. I don't know if that is purely a medical decision or if cost is a factor or both.

So in summary we have mainly (is this a better word for you?) a strategy focusing on the spike protein. A vaccine that appears to be less effective than before (or there are certainly questions there) and leadership's answer is go with another dose of the same. Not saying it's not the right move just pointing out what is going on.

Will the current building immunity rate of the populace suffice to successfully contain the pandemic or will continued variants make the vaccine more "porous" as time goes on? Or will something else happen that is an interplay between the two? Are these not legitimate questions?

 

[SteveAZee]

Liver damage.

Exactly. Just saying that's a reason to not just go off adding additional vaccine doses until more information is available. Can't know everything, so it's risk/reward.

 

[Club34]

Then what are “those other things”?

What other things?

 

[Club34]

Exactly. Just saying that's a reason to not just go off adding additional vaccine doses until more information is available. Can't know everything, so it's risk/reward.

That is all I was saying. Merely piggy-backing your point as it were. And it again, it may in fact be the right move.

 

[lazyboy97o]

What other things?

You tell us. They’re your words.

Despite whatever level of benefit the vaccine has, there will be those other things. Here's hoping we have seen/experienced the worst of it with the vaccine. I know there was a "high level" of confidence here in this forum.

 

[disneygeek90]

I'm supposed to be meeting with friends in November. One of them wants no masks for that reason. I get it and I don't blame them. They work in health care and need that break. I'll cancel if they want and reschedule for next year. My own personal trips are being planned no matter what. I respect both views (wanting or not wanting masks) really for that emotional reason.

I was talking about my June trip. It was 90-95 all the days we were there. So yes, in warm weather, I preferred outside maskless vs inside in some cases with a mask on. As I said the Land was particularly bad.

But that's what normalizing to me is - long term. That's not my end goal here to be real. I don't mean to be anti-mask but really people need to understand that some people aren't always happy with them. That was my point with what I said. Yes, I wear a mask and totally all the time. I don't have to love or want this to be long term. I am willing to wear when needed, but I won't ever agree to normalizing.

Again my post above relates to my point of view. I understand yours. I don't see it as normalizing. I see it as mitigating while needed. They absolutely are not normalized for many people - you may have, but I see so many who fight and do not normalize it. We need to be honest about it. What one of us does as a masker is not what others do.

Example: I was waiting on some gorilla snot today for my kid for the show (google it). As I was waiting at Target I saw a guy walk right past the sign and still didn't bother to have his mask. He was escorted out and he had to find a mask. It's not normalized for all. Only for some. I hope that made sense.

During a pandemic it is normalized. Maybe we can during certain situations but as of right now as a whole, we will not have it normalized in the way you are thinking. People are fighting it too much.

I'm kind of grumpy today and I'm sorry. I saw the news of the kids vaccine as great and a hopeful way to help and yet I've been seeing a lot of negativity and excuses to not vaccinate more. Oh btw vaccinated are spreading just as much as unvaccinated and such. I'm honestly tired of this all.

We have a show in a few week and I worry we'll be shut down because adults have made this so much about a fight than it should be. I'm honestly okay with wearing a mask even though I hate it, but we need to be real here. People suck with masking - it will never be normalized here in the US by all or even enough. It's disappointing. So is not being able to see my family at the holidays due to a no travel order by a doc (cancer)

Normalizing to me is not seeing wearing masks in Disney any different than anywhere else in public, or making it a big deal. It’s reality. It’s now. Masks don’t have to be a scary and bad thing unless you make it out to be.

 

[GoofGoof]

First off, your insulting tone is completely unnecessary.

The mRNA vaccine is the most widely taken is it not? And it is the most singularly focused intervention is it not? Targeting a specific aspect of original covid? And while antibody and other treatment exist, at least in my area and the hospital where I work, they are not widely used. Certainly not on a level of the vaccine and on a level that matches the number of infections. The vast number of covid positive patients are simply sent home. I don't know if that is purely a medical decision or if cost is a factor or both.

So in summary we have mainly (is this a better word for you?) a strategy focusing on the spike protein. A vaccine that appears to be less effective than before (or there are certainly questions there) and leadership's answer is go with another dose of the same. Not saying it's not the right move just pointing out what is going on.

Will the current building immunity rate of the populace suffice to successfully contain the pandemic or will continued variants make the vaccine more "porous" as time goes on? Or will something else happen that is an interplay between the two? Are these not legitimate questions?

Maybe I’m not understanding the issue, but the existing US vaccines (Pfizer, Moderna and JnJ) still work vs the delta variant. They have a lower efficacy level than vs the original strand of covid but the level is still very high. So the boosters were not suggested as a reaction to delta. My understanding is that Pfizer was requesting authorization for a booster dose due to the vaccines protection waning over time. That would have occurred with or without delta. The 3rd shot jump starts your immune system and helps extend the life of the protection from the vaccine. If a variant emerges that is truly vaccine resistant and it is deemed necessary to rebuild the vaccines that can be done (and designed very quickly), but it will take some time to test and ramp up manufacturing. So far none of the variants that has emerged warranted that reaction although the manufacturers have looked into it for each variant.

 

[Chi84]

Normalizing to me is not seeing wearing masks in Disney any different than anywhere else in public, or making it a big deal. It’s reality. It’s now. Masks don’t have to be a scary and bad thing unless you make it out to be.

People are different. Not everyone feels the way you do about masks. As long as they follow the rules, they’re entitled to feel however they want, including being annoyed by masks. It doesn’t mean they’re “scared” by them. There’s only so much you can control when it comes to people other than yourself.

 

[disneygeek90]

People are different. Not everyone feels the way you do about masks. As long as they follow the rules, they’re entitled to feel however they want, including being annoyed by masks. It doesn’t mean they’re “scared” by them. There’s only so much you can control when it comes to people other than yourself.

There’s worse things in life than dealing with a little annoyance wearing a mask indoors at a theme park, but maybe that’s just me.

 

[Club34]

You tell us. They’re your words.

The trade offs written in the paragraph before what you quoted and my subsequent posts.

 

[Heppenheimer]

First off, your insulting tone is completely unnecessary.

The mRNA vaccine is the most widely taken is it not? And it is the most singularly focused intervention is it not? Targeting a specific aspect of original covid? And while antibody and other treatment exist, at least in my area and the hospital where I work, they are not widely used. Certainly not on a level of the vaccine and on a level that matches the number of infections. The vast number of covid positive patients are simply sent home. I don't know if that is purely a medical decision or if cost is a factor or both.

The monoclonal antibody infusion has some very specific inclusion criteria. If you're not over 65, you need a qualifying diagnosis.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Liver damage.

Is anyone aware of a medication that doesn't have some sort of tradeoff, side effect or hazard? Genuine question for my betters...

To quote Paracelsus, "The dose makes the poison." Even water and oxygen are toxic in sufficient amounts.

Without diving too far down a rabbit hole, most medications do no harm, for the majority of people, at doses within the therapeutic index. Most will be toxic at too high of a dose, but usually there isn't a linear relationship between dose and toxicity until a certain threshold is passed. For example, the liver is more than able to handle acetaminophen's potentially toxic intermediate until this system is overwhelmed, usually in doses of greater than 4000 mg in less than 24 hours. Not enough time to go into all the different mechanisms by which a drug can cause side effects, but I'll say this for vaccines. Even if an ingredient were able to cause toxicity in overdose, very few people receive more than a standard, safe dose of vaccine components throughout their life. Most of the more serious side effects of vaccines are due to either an allergic reaction to one of the ingredients (usually not life-threatening, especially if promptly treated) or an autoimmune reaction by the lymphocyte stem cells selected by the vaccine. The latter, thankfully, is exceptionally rare.

 

[EpcoTim]

To quote Paracelsus, "The dose makes the poison." Even water and oxygen are toxic in sufficient amounts.

Without. diving too far down a rabbit hole, most medications do no harm, for the majority of people, at doses within the therapeutic index. Most will be toxic at too high of a dose, but usually there isn't a linear relationship between dose and toxicity until a certain threshold is passed. For example, the liver is more than able to handle acetaminophen's potentially toxic intermediate until this system is overwhelmed, usually in doses of greater than 4000 mg in less than 24 hours. Not enough time to go into all the different mechanisms by which a drug can cause side effects, but I'll say this for vaccines. Even if an ingredient were able to cause toxicity in overdose, very few people receive more than a standard, safe dose of vaccine components throughout their life. Most of the more serious side effects of vaccines are due to either an allergic reaction to one of the ingredients (usually not life-threatening, especially if promptly treated) or an autoimmune reaction by the lymphocyte stem cells selected by the vaccine. The latter, thankfully, is exceptionally rare.

Variables need to be considered also. Liver disease, kidney disease? Family history of something? None of this is linear. That is ‘diving down the rabbit hole’ but still something not to be ignored.

 

[Angel Ariel]

In fact, they were explicitly directed to not consider other countries while evaluation the question. To the point that they were told they would effectively be stopped and their mic turned off if they directed the discussion to include vaccinating other countries instead of just looking at the question being discussed about general approval for everyone for a third shot of Pfizer.


People forget about the open comment period, but it's part of the process, just like at a school board meeting. And, just like at a school board meeting, anyone can sign up and get their 3 minutes to say just about whatever they want to say. Even if they show up and just spout conspiracy theories for their entire 3 minutes, they'll get to speak for that time. It's kind of wild.


Now, what was truly wild and novel, was the second question. The meeting discussed all the options, and then they voted on the question at hand, "general full approval of a third dose for everyone". Not just EUA, but the full deal general approval. That's why it got the "no" vote, it was too big, not enough data, and not clearly "better" for that population. Then came the wild part. They took a 15 minute recess and the FDA sort of said "hang out and we're going to go write a brand new question on the fly and have you vote on that one too". That's where the question about high risk people and occupations came from, and I think only for EUA too. Meaning the second vote was a recommendation to approve an EUA for a third dose of Pfizer to high risk people or people in high risk environments. That passed easily. Being both EUA, not full, and targeted at higher risk meant that a lot less data was needed for the risk/reward math.

It'll be interesting to see what the FDA decides to do with the two recommendation votes and what the CDC decides in it's own meetings too. It's probably a super safe bet that they follow the second question. The first, they could follow too or they could decide to just ignore it, but I doubt it at least for now until there's more data.

Part of my question is, we qualified to get the vax in the high risk group because our daughter - who is too young to be vaxxed yet - is high risk. So do we then qualify for boosters, given she is still not able to be vaxxed?

 

[BrianLo]

The monoclonal antibody infusion has some very specific inclusion criteria. If you're not over 65, you need a qualifying diagnosis.

I hadn't really been following treatment protocols. I was a bit surprised to learn when I actually went into it recently, how middling the recommendations are for Remdesivir. Particularly since the US was really promoting it for a period.

Canadian physicians are no longer using it in any protocol apart from research studies. Turns out it's just another wonder drug, that wasn't.