Architectural authenticity at World Showcase

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
This thread comes out of a discussion about theming that started in the thread about the new crêperie at the France pavilion. Some of those involved, especially @lazyboy97o, argued that the concept art for the new restaurant contravened a number of French architectural norms, resulting in a bad design out of keeping with earlier Epcot standards. While I agree that the design falls a little flat, I also think it should be acknowledged that World Showcase has always been full of architectural hodgepodges and aberrations that defy the rules of real-world architecture. To be clear, this isn't a dig at the Epoct/EPCOT of old, nor is it a whataboutism in defence of today's Epcot; on the contrary, I believe that what makes the art of theming so special is precisely the fact that it deviates from our actual world even as it evokes it. Half the fun is seeing something familiar reinterpreted in fantastical yet convincing terms. World Showcase is just this type of persuasive fiction.

I was asked to provide some pictures demonstrating the kinds of architectural "mistakes" I'm talking about. I'll keep my examples to those pavilions that deal with the traditions I know best, but others should feel free to add further images.


American Adventure

This one I already discussed in the crêperie thread:

american-adventure-gallery01.jpg


The Ionic column capitals here are perpendicular to the architrave, when they should run parallel with it, as they do at the Jefferson Memorial:

jefferson-memorial-rotunda_medium.jpg



Italy

A charming but nonsensical melange (bits of various columns stacked one on top of the other):

366065


The triangular pediment of the fountain contains a pine-cone finial:

3809441456_47f272110e_b.jpg


In actual Neoclassical architecture, such finials occur only as elements of broken and swan-neck pediments:

auburn-natchez-adams-county.jpg



United Kingdom

There's a curious miniature Georgian house jutting out of the side of a larger Georgian building with which it has no logical relationship:

366084


The placement of the chimney would put the fireplaces in the corner of the rooms, right next to the left windows, which is, of course, impossible. (ETA: To correct myself a little, chimneys don't always align with the fireplaces they serve, but the way that this one rises directly out of the building's left corner, breaking up the cornice in the process, is not at all what one would expect of such architecture.) The vertical misalignment of the upper- and lower-storey windows may seem another "off" detail, but there are many Georgian houses in the UK with such irregularity in their facades.

These examples are to say nothing of the cartoonish finish that even some of the more accurately designed buildings exhibit. While a number of the pavilions have elements that are executed using traditional techniques and materials (Morocco really stands out in this regard), others are patently artificial/caricatural in their look and texture. The thatched cottage in the UK pavilion has far more to do with Disney's Alice in Wonderland than anything you'll see in a British village!

dsc_0238.jpg


And so while the crêperie as shown in the concept art does indeed look uninspired, I for one hope that the Imagineers continue in the quirky footsteps of their predecessors rather than attempt an exact reproduction of an actual French building. If I wanted to see that, I'd go to France.
 
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RandySavage

Well-Known Member
Nice, interesting post. I actually think that last example is a fair recall to thatched roof Tudor cottages in many English villages, but I digress...

As you know & note, WS (and themeparks) aren't about rigid historical reconstruction as much as they are about stagecraft and creating a romantic evocation of a place, time or story. In the case of WS, it is the country as you might find in a postcard or poster art of the Golden Age of Travel. That's not to say I wouldn't prefer to see even more accurate details then what we get, but the designers are not always perfect or all-knowing or there are other requirements/constraints that bring about what we see. There are a few cases (the American Adventure bathrooms add-on come to mind) that appear to just be the result of a poor designer/design.

I called out the Creperie artwork early on, though, thinking now it doesn't really bother me that much and I don't foresee it being a problem or scar on the France pavilion. I don't see it as being intentionally non-specific or quirky, as you gave some examples above, just that it doesn't give any feeling of being a cool thing that fit naturally in the pavilion. The problem for me was theme park concept art should never be mundane, boring & not create that sense of placemaking that EPCOT requires. I'd take inaccurate over boring. It maybe the paucity of great artists inhouse at WDI these days. Back in the 80s, 90s and earlier WDI had a large cadre of the world's finest commercial & film artists/designers inhouse. Even excluding your Gen I greats like Herb Ryman, Harper Goff, Collin Campbell, Bob Scifo, into the 90s they still had numerous Gen II masters doing their renderings: John , Chris Smith, R. Tom Gilleon, Dan Goozee, Bryan Jowers, Nina Rae Vaughn, Wes Cook, Ned Mueller, and many more classically-trained, non-digital geniuses.

Since the 80s & 90s concept art has exploded as a field (with the dominance of video games and tons more fantasy-based film & tv), mostly done on computer (photoshop) and 98% of top talent in concept design go into the spaces with the most action and job security: games and filmed entertainment (a lot of the jaw-dropping art/design for places like Wizarding World, Pandora and Star Wars Land came from the film designers). Theme parks are feast or famine for concept designers with long-term work being rare compared to the constant ongoing projects at VFX house or Game studio, so WDI doesn't have a ton of elite artists in-house anymore, from what I can tell. It seems like 90% of the key art Disney releases is by Greg Pro and 90% of the story art is by Chris Turner. The Harambe Theater never had great art released and turned out really well, so I'm expecting something similar here. I just hope it doesn't feel like an intern-designed Food & Wine booth.
 
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LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Nice, interesting post. I actually think that last example is a fair recall to thatched roof Tudor cottages in many English villages, but I digress...

As you know & note, WS (and themeparks) aren't about rigid historical reconstruction as much as they are about stagecraft and creating a romantic evocation of a place, time or story. In the case of WS, it is the country as you might find in a postcard or poster art of the Golden Age of Travel. That's not to say I wouldn't prefer to see even more accurate details then what we get, but the designers are not always perfect or all-knowing or there are other requirements/constraints that bring about what we see. There are a few cases (the American Adventure bathrooms add-on come to mind) that appear to just be the result of a poor designer/design.

I called out the Creperie artwork early on, though, thinking now it doesn't really bother me that much and I don't foresee it being a problem or scar on the France pavilion. I don't see it as being intentionally non-specific or quirky, as you gave some examples above, just that it doesn't give any feeling of being a cool thing that fit naturally in the pavilion. The problem for me was theme park concept art should never be mundane, boring & not create that sense of placemaking that EPCOT requires. I'd take inaccurate over boring. It maybe the pawcity of great artists inhouse at WDI these days. Back in the 80s, 90s and earlier WDI had a large cadre of the world's finest commercial & film artists/designers inhouse. Even excluding your Gen I greats like Herb Ryman, Harper Goff, Collin Campbell, Bob Scifo, into the 90s they still had numerous Gen II masters doing their renderings: John *, Chris Smith, R. Tom Gilleon, Dan Goozee, Bryan Jowers, Nina Rae Vaughn, Wes Cook, Ned Mueller, and many more classically-trained, non-digital geniuses.

Since the 80s & 90s concept art has exploded as a field (with the dominance of video games and tons more fantasy-based film & tv), mostly done on computer (photoshop) and 98% of top talent in concept design go into the spaces with the most action and job security: games and filmed entertainment (a lot of the jaw-dropping art/design for places like Wizarding World, Pandora and Star Wars Land came from the film designers). Theme parks are feast or famine for concept designers with long-term work being rare compared to the constant ongoing projects at VFX house or Game studio, so WDI doesn't have a ton of elite artists in-house anymore, from what I can tell. It seems like 90% of the key art Disney releases is by Greg Pro and 90% of the story art is by Chris Turner. The Harambe Theater never had great art released and turned out really well, so I'm expecting something similar here. I just hope it doesn't feel like an intern-designed Food & Wine booth.

Thank you for your response, which I enjoyed reading. I agree with pretty much everything you say, and one sentence in particular--"I'd take inaccurate over boring"--nicely sums up my feelings.

Regarding the thatched cottage, let me clarify what I meant. The design is not out of keeping with real models, but the finish and texture are highly artificial and (in my opinion) instantly come across as such. From the overly bright colour of the bricks to the strategically "distressed" woodwork, the whole thing screams Disneyfication. And that's no bad thing in a Disney theme park!
 

KaliSplash

Well-Known Member
This thread comes out of a discussion about theming that started in the thread about the new crêperie at the France pavilion. Some of those involved, especially @lazyboy97o, argued that the concept art for the new restaurant contravened a number of French architectural norms, resulting in a bad design out of keeping with earlier Epcot standards. While I agree that the design falls a little flat, I also think it should be acknowledged that World Showcase has always been full of architectural hodgepodges and aberrations that defy the rules of real-world architecture. To be clear, this isn't a dig at the Epoct/EPCOT of old, nor is it a whataboutism in defence of today's Epcot; on the contrary, I believe that what makes the art of theming so special is precisely the fact that it deviates from our actual world even as it evokes it. Half the fun is seeing something familiar reinterpreted in fantastical yet convincing terms. World Showcase is just this type of persuasive fiction.

I was asked to provide some pictures demonstrating the kinds of architectural "mistakes" I'm talking about. I'll keep my examples to those pavilions that deal with the traditions I know best, but others should feel free to add further images.


American Adventure

This one I already discussed in the crêperie thread:

american-adventure-gallery01.jpg


The Ionic column capitals here are perpendicular to the architrave, when they should run parallel with it, as they do at the Jefferson Memorial:

jefferson-memorial-rotunda_medium.jpg



Italy

A charming but nonsensical melange (bits of various columns stacked one on top of the other):

View attachment 366065

The triangular pediment of the fountain contains a pine-cone finial:

3809441456_47f272110e_b.jpg


In actual Neoclassical architecture, such finials occur only as elements of broken and swan-neck pediments:

auburn-natchez-adams-county.jpg



United Kingdom

There's a curious miniature Georgian house jutting out of another building with which it has no logical relationship:

View attachment 366084

The vertically misaligned windows may seem another "off" detail, but they occur on the facades of many Georgian houses in the UK.

These examples are to say nothing of the cartoonish finish that even some of the more accurately designed buildings exhibit. While a number of the pavilions have elements that are executed using traditional techniques and materials (Morocco really stands out in this regard), others are patently artificial/caricatural in their look and texture. The thatched cottage in the UK pavilion has far more to do with Disney's Alice in Wonderland than anything you'll see in a British village!

dsc_0238.jpg


And so while the crêperie as shown in the concept art does indeed look uninspired, I for one hope that the Imagineers continue in the quirky footsteps of their predecessors rather than attempt an exact reproduction of an actual French building. If I wanted to see that, I'd go to France.
You DO understand that in Epcot the Goal was to squish various styles around in the country together?
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Morocco is my favorite pavilion architecturally speaking since their King actually sent people to work on the pavilion and I don't know if this is still true but I think the government has been the sponsor of the pavilion.

The Arabic inscription over the main arch fronting Tangierine Café translates as "Centre for Travel Information". I'm assuming this was the building's original function back when the Moroccan government sponsored it, and since it's now an eatery, my guess is that this official sponsorship is no more. Perhaps someone reading this can confirm one way or the other.
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
The Germany pavillion looks like they took apart and incorrectly reassembled pieces of Rothenburg ob der Tauber and Nuremburg. The overall style is pretty specific to the early modern period of the Franconia region in northern Bavaria.
 

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JIMINYCR

Well-Known Member
Well the truth is, I'll never get to travel the world to visit the countries featured in the WS, and see the real thing to know the difference. A visit to EP at least gives me a taste of whats out there, realistic or semi realistic, its all I'll ever get. My conversing with the different pavilion CM's gives me a chance to get more accurate representations of life in their areas of the world.
 

"El Gran Magnifico"

Bring Me A Shrubbery
Premium Member
I find this thread fascinating. Thank you @LittleBuford for posting. I don't pretend to be knowledgeable in the subject at all other than from the perspective of a casual observer of the finished product. Which means I miss a lot of the details.

I do hope we can expand this thread into other areas of the resort (specifically resort theming) where the artists have had a bit more canvas to work with.

I'd have sworn that WL was billed at some point as representative of the Pacific Northwest (I may be wrong). I know that it was based on the Old Faithful Inn at Yellowstone. The Disney website reflects "National Park" style (still could swear I read Pacific Northwest at some point). I'd love to hear a breakdown on that or the Boardwalk area representative of early 1900's Atlantic City.
 

Castle Cake Apologist

Well-Known Member
Thank you for all the work that had to have gone into this post. These are pretty interesting examples and I've honestly never noticed many of them.

I could be mistaken, but I think much of the criticism of the crêperie art was in line with your example of the chimney in the UK Pavilion... design elements that don't make a lot of sense.

You DO understand that in Epcot the Goal was to squish various styles around in the country together?

Did you even read the post you're quoting? I'd say it's a safe bet he understands that.
 

Castle Cake Apologist

Well-Known Member
The Arabic inscription over the main arch fronting Tangierine Café translates as "Centre for Travel Information". I'm assuming this was the building's original function back when the Moroccan government sponsored it, and since it's now an eatery, my guess is that this official sponsorship is no more. Perhaps someone reading this can confirm one way or the other.

Paging @marni1971
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
I find this thread fascinating. Thank you @LittleBuford for posting. I don't pretend to be knowledgeable in the subject at all other than from the perspective of a casual observer of the finished product. Which means I miss a lot of the details.

I do hope we can expand this thread into other areas of the resort (specifically resort theming) where the artists have had a bit more canvas to work with.

I'd have sworn that WL was billed at some point as representative of the Pacific Northwest (I may be wrong). I know that it was based on the Old Faithful Inn at Yellowstone. The Disney website reflects "National Park" style (still could swear I read Pacific Northwest at some point). I'd love to hear a breakdown on that or the Boardwalk area representative of early 1900's Atlantic City.
I believe the design of the Wilderness Lodge was also influenced by the Timberline Lodge on Mount Hood and the Paradise Inn on Mount Rainier. The lobby looks like a direct re-imagining of the interior of the Paradise Inn:

 

epcotisbest

Well-Known Member
I find this thread fascinating. Thank you @LittleBuford for posting. I don't pretend to be knowledgeable in the subject at all other than from the perspective of a casual observer of the finished product. Which means I miss a lot of the details.

I do hope we can expand this thread into other areas of the resort (specifically resort theming) where the artists have had a bit more canvas to work with.

I'd have sworn that WL was billed at some point as representative of the Pacific Northwest (I may be wrong). I know that it was based on the Old Faithful Inn at Yellowstone. The Disney website reflects "National Park" style (still could swear I read Pacific Northwest at some point). I'd love to hear a breakdown on that or the Boardwalk area representative of early 1900's Atlantic City.

Artist Point at WL is frequently referred to as inspired by the Pacific Northwest.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Well the truth is, I'll never get to travel the world to visit the countries featured in the WS, and see the real thing to know the difference. A visit to EP at least gives me a taste of whats out there, realistic or semi realistic, its all I'll ever get. My conversing with the different pavilion CM's gives me a chance to get more accurate representations of life in their areas of the world.

There's a wonderful line spoken by Blanche in A Streetcar Named Desire: "I don't tell the truth. I tell what ought to be the truth." The countries of World Showcase are represented in similarly imaginative and idealised terms, but there's truth to these representations nonetheless, and one really can learn something from each pavilion (or at least be inspired to do more research).
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I find this thread fascinating. Thank you @LittleBuford for posting. I don't pretend to be knowledgeable in the subject at all other than from the perspective of a casual observer of the finished product. Which means I miss a lot of the details.

I do hope we can expand this thread into other areas of the resort (specifically resort theming) where the artists have had a bit more canvas to work with.

I'd have sworn that WL was billed at some point as representative of the Pacific Northwest (I may be wrong). I know that it was based on the Old Faithful Inn at Yellowstone. The Disney website reflects "National Park" style (still could swear I read Pacific Northwest at some point). I'd love to hear a breakdown on that or the Boardwalk area representative of early 1900's Atlantic City.
Thank you for all the work that had to have gone into this post. These are pretty interesting examples and I've honestly never noticed many of them.

I appreciate the kind words from both of you!

And @scorp16, I'd love for the conversation to expand beyond World Showcase (which I see it already has).
 

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