Mickey and Minnie’s Runaway Railway - Disneyland

[Chi84]

Isn’t that what DAS is for? The ADA compliant program the park has had in place for years now. If not then let’s go to all VQs.

DAS is for people with disabilities as defined by the ADA. I’m talking about normal elderly people who can no longer stand in 4- hour lines and others with physical limitations short of disabilities.

 

[celluloid]

Why limit it to Disney? Because it was the Disney attraction the comment and retort were about - not theme parks in general.



Because EPCOT is still woefully unbalanced and lacking of rides is my guess. It also provides a reliable experience for guests once the mad-rush lottery phase is over. But an attraction like guardians which don't have the reliability woes I hope will shed it sooner rather than later.

Ding ding ding. Cash crab for people to have to spend their day at a park most won't want to fully spend it at, make it to another meal.time, pass by snack/drink etc.
The same reason firework shows have existed since the early days I'd Disneyland. You want people to have a reason to spend as much time in the park as possible. This is a lot cheaper than fireworks and adding attractions.

Guardians capacity vs demand is plenty good to drop that without having 3 hour plus waits.
Thank you.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

All the angst about being a conspiracy to sell Lightning Lanes... well guess what.. Disney would still be selling lightning lanes without VQ too, so it's not like this is an either or situation. Does it create more opportunity for LL sales for the people that missed out? Sure, but don't confuse happy side effects with primary objective.

Interesting that in the same sentence I’m being ascribed as a conspiracy peddler you’re conceding my point here.

If a spoonful of pixie dust helps the medicine go down I’ll acknowledge Disney’s intentions may well have been with the purest of intentions for better guest experience originally with the need to ensure pressure testing for RoTR (see my earlier post). But, I think the impact of per guest spending for the parks and resorts segment on the Quarterly balance sheet is definitely a very, very “happy side effect” for leadership.

DAS is for people with disabilities as defined by the ADA. I’m talking about normal elderly people who can no longer stand in 4- hour lines and others with physical limitations short of disabilities.

How likely do you think a limited mobility bound person or an elderly person will be able to navigate the Disney mobile App to secure a VQ independently on their own?

My elderly parents are perfectly mobile but ask them to use a smartphone app… good luck.

 

[PiratesMansion]

This whole "it's more accessible" argument is nonsense and disingenuous. There are existing systems in place for that. If you're going to just take the company line, fine, but either just admit that's what you're doing or find a line of arguing that makes more sense. It's not like you're going to get a free Mickey bar for defending the company's bad policies.

It couldn't be plainer what's happening here and why people are upset: Disney's trying to do a bait and switch here by advertising a new ride that people are assuming they will be able to experience the way they've been able to experience pretty much any other ride that's opened anywhere up to this point. Then people show up and find out they're out of luck if they can't play fastest finger on their phone successfully or aren't willing to pay an additional $15.

There is no good reason for this ride specifically to have the system it does. ROTR had it because of unreliability. Spider-Man had to deal with stricter capacity restrictions because of the reopening. There is no evidence that strict capacity restrictions remain in place, it having been established that at this point the reservation system is to help Disney save a buck on staffing moreso than anything else, and MMRR is a proven, reliable ride system with high capacity that has worked just fine at WDW. But because of how DLR is choosing to operate it, the ride is not presently doing what it is designed to do because Disney is using it to try and reach into its guests' pockets yet another time.

Again, it's a recipe to annoy people with little upside for anyone. The $15 Disney will make from some people who cave in and pay for ILL will not outweigh the number of people that're going to be upset because they feel like they've been cheated for no good reason.

 

[el_super]

Again. The first part is the one ride where bathrooms were installed. Do you know why this does not happen often elsewhere, for longer lines?

Yeah, because Disney implemented Virtual Queues to prevent lines from getting that long.

Your second part is not true for all. Universal has parks with higher attendance than a Disney Park just this past year.
Park popularity is also not always a correlation to wait time for attractions. So that point is irrelevant.

Not really. Disney was in a position to develop their virtual queue system because they routinely have new rides opening with hours+ waits. All of their parks can benefit from this.

Universal is close, but it still seems like they would rather suffer through having 10+ hour waits and make money off their long queues than actually provide for guest comfort in that regard.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

For what it’s worth the 1:00 drop I only got a backup group today.

 

[el_super]

Isn’t that part of the reason they cleared all the space in front of Roger by removing the fountain and creating the turf area?

Yes but is it going to be enough? Probably not. They will need general stroller parking for the rest of the land, and also need to keep some space clear for new offerings. Cartoon Spin also doesn't routinely experience long waits, but when the land has it's grand opening, it's a real possibility.

Serious question: wasn’t the VQ borne out of the fact that RoTR was so unreliable and low capacity in its initial opening mode that they didn’t want crowds queueing up and then not riding the attraction? Hence the VQ was borne out of necessity to filter guests into back up groups and not overflow the queue in the early months of operations?

Short answer: No. Just like the rest of the Fastpass/Genie+/Lighting Land development, it was being done because there were serious guest satisfaction issues with waiting in line. No one likes waiting in line.

As I understood it the VQ was originally a way to “soft open” what was a ride that was technically not ready for prime time and not operationally meeting it’s key capacity metrics by creating an artificial cap. Compare this to the problem with todays VQs is most of these newer attractions (EPCOT’s Rat or GoTG:CR and MMRR at DL) have either opened elsewhere and/or have decent operational capacities that should be ready for prime time.

Even if they were able to hit their capacity targets, which for the ones you listed there is no reason to believe they aren't, they still opened with VQ in order to prevent hours long waits from developing. Once the demand sinks enough that they are comfortable with XX wait, they will remove the VQ. This has been their MO since it debuted. And you can argue that Rise still isn't really past the issues it has been having but they did remove the VQ anyway.

The only reason to create “scarce capacity” is if you’re purposely reserving a pool of paid ILL reservations. This is also different from free-to-use Fastpass or even flat rate Maxpass which did not not create the same perverse financial incentive to establish scarce capacity and give the appearance of the preponderance of inflated demand.

Individual Lightning Lane only works if there are people who are willing to spend money to skip the wait. You know what is GREAT at selling ILL? 3+ Hour waits. If anything people are disinclined from spending $20 on an attraction when they can get the same skip-the-line experience for free. I'd imagine they sell more ILL once the standby line opens up.

 

[el_super]

Again, it's a recipe to annoy people with little upside for anyone. The $15 Disney will make from some people who cave in and pay for ILL will not outweigh the number of people that're going to be upset because they feel like they've been cheated for no good reason.

No one is being cheated. They are essentially giving out 30,000 free Individual Lightning Lane slots a day to ride this ride.

The only people really annoyed by this are the ones that understood how to game the old system and cannot figure out how to game the new one.

 

[celluloid]

Universal is close, but it still seems like they would rather suffer through having 10+ hour waits and make money off their long queues than actually provide for guest comfort in that regard.

They just build more rides and theme parks instead with their success. Wild concept I know.

 

[celluloid]

No one is being cheated. They are essentially giving out 30,000 free Individual Lightning Lane slots a day to ride this ride.

The only people really annoyed by this are the ones that understood how to game the old system and cannot figure out how to game the new one.

That is so untrue. Plenty of.times one gets to their boarding group and still wait an hour plus. It's not a free LL. It can't be when it also sells LL anyway. I am done talking to the illogical.

 

[Chi84]

Interesting that in the same sentence I’m being ascribed as a conspiracy peddler you’re conceding my point here.

If a spoonful of pixie dust helps the medicine go down I’ll acknowledge Disney’s intentions may well have been with the purest of intentions for better guest experience originally with the need to ensure pressure testing for RoTR (see my earlier post). But, I think the impact of per guest spending for the parks and resorts segment on the Quarterly balance sheet is definitely a very, very “happy side effect” for leadership.


How likely do you think a limited mobility bound person or an elderly person will be able to navigate the Disney mobile App to secure a VQ independently on their own?

My elderly parents are perfectly mobile but ask them to use a smartphone app… good luck.

Yes. I’m in my late 60’s and I use all kinds of technology. Lots of us old people do

My mother in law used the apps on her iPhone just fine into her 90’s.

 

[el_super]

That is so untrue. Plenty of.times one gets to their boarding group and still wait an hour plus. It's not a free LL. It can't be when it also sells LL anyway. I am done talking to the illogical.

....and yet the virtual queue remains.

 

[SuddenStorm]

No one is being cheated. They are essentially giving out 30,000 free Individual Lightning Lane slots a day to ride this ride.

The only people really annoyed by this are the ones that understood how to game the old system and cannot figure out how to game the new one.

Wait, they're giving out 30,000 boarding group spots a day?

Assuming the ride operates for an entire 16 hour day, that's 1875 boarding group spots an hour.

On a quick Google search I couldn't find any confirmed hourly capacity metrics for the ride, but I did see an estimate of 2,160.

So Disney is only doing 285 ILL spots an hour?

Either they're far more charitable than we thought and everyone struggling to get a boarding group just doesn't know what they're doing- or your numbers are off.

 

[el_super]

Either they're far more charitable than we thought and everyone struggling to get a boarding group just doesn't know what they're doing- or your numbers are off.

My numbers are probably off. I only meant as an example.

I don't think the sells of ILL are all that significant right now.

 

[CaptinEO]

This whole "it's more accessible" argument is nonsense and disingenuous. There are existing systems in place for that. If you're going to just take the company line, fine, but either just admit that's what you're doing or find a line of arguing that makes more sense. It's not like you're going to get a free Mickey bar for defending the company's bad policies.

It couldn't be plainer what's happening here and why people are upset: Disney's trying to do a bait and switch here by advertising a new ride that people are assuming they will be able to experience the way they've been able to experience pretty much any other ride that's opened anywhere up to this point. Then people show up and find out they're out of luck if they can't play fastest finger on their phone successfully or aren't willing to pay an additional $15.

There is no good reason for this ride specifically to have the system it does. ROTR had it because of unreliability. Spider-Man had to deal with stricter capacity restrictions because of the reopening. There is no evidence that strict capacity restrictions remain in place, it having been established that at this point the reservation system is to help Disney save a buck on staffing moreso than anything else, and MMRR is a proven, reliable ride system with high capacity that has worked just fine at WDW. But because of how DLR is choosing to operate it, the ride is not presently doing what it is designed to do because Disney is using it to try and reach into its guests' pockets yet another time.

Again, it's a recipe to annoy people with little upside for anyone. The $15 Disney will make from some people who cave in and pay for ILL will not outweigh the number of people that're going to be upset because they feel like they've been cheated for no good reason.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

If people like VQs that's their choice, I disagree with it but when people defend VQ and Lightning Lane I can't tell whether they are just drinking the company's Kool Aid or are a paid employee.

The whole spiel the company gives about giving guests more options and guest satisfaction is such PR corporate speak BS.

 

[celluloid]

....and yet the virtual queue remains.

No one ever said it didn't.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

Individual Lightning Lane only works if there are people who are willing to spend money to skip the wait. You know what is GREAT at selling ILL? 3+ Hour waits. If anything people are disinclined from spending $20 on an attraction when they can get the same skip-the-line experience for free. I'd imagine they sell more ILL once the standby line opens up.

I appreciate the back and forth. Even if we disagree.

I notice we keep citing 3+ hour waits. Given the sheer number of rides and attractions at Disneyland and MMRRs hourly capacity do we have any reason to believe this attraction would have these kinds of waits in the absence of VQ even now?

As you note even RoTR with its ongoing problems probably averages 60-90 minute waits without VQ and has only been opened like 2 years when we factor out the COVID closure period.

Which leads me to question - with ILL as an option what would be so bad about letting people just wait? The queue is detailed and there’s plenty of room in Toon Town now.

Yes. I’m in my late 60’s and I use all kinds of technology. Lots of us old people do

My mother in law used the apps on her iPhone just fine into her 90’s.

Not meant as a slight at elderly people. But my mother is in her 70s and had a stroke/heart attack. She uses her phone, but she definitely does not have the speed to quickly sign up for a virtual queue. My father still has his flip phone.

You’re the one who’s asking me about elderly people and those with mobility issues. I’m telling you that the VQ system is not easy for those with processing challenges (regardless of age).

 

[el_super]

I notice we keep citing 3+ hour waits. Given the sheer number of rides and attractions at Disneyland and MMRRs hourly capacity do we have any reason to believe this attraction would have these kinds of waits in the absence of VQ even now?

I think it's possible, but probably less likely than the last time an attraction at DLR hit 3 hours (Mission Breakout). You're going to have scenarios though where on weekdays, it will be easier to obtain a boarding group than on busier weekends. I think without the VQ though, you could end up in a scenario where a small 30+ minute line ends up ballooning to 3 or 4 hours once the afterwork/afterschool crowd shows up. So between less crowded weekdays and more crowded weekends (where closing for fireworks become a concern) there are differences, but it still makes the most sense to stick with one VQ system until you can fully support standby on the most busiest of days.

Which leads me to question - with ILL as an option what would be so bad about letting people just wait? The queue is detailed and there’s plenty of room in Toon Town now.

There are some concerns over massing people in one general area, and a lot of those have been mentioned before (including bathroom issues). Disney has to make sure that security and paramedics are available, that there are clear ingress and egress paths and a number of other safety factors that certainly can be done, but don't HAVE to be done.

It's really, in my mind, a matter of guest satisfaction. People don't like waiting in line.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

It's really, in my mind, a matter of guest satisfaction. People don't like waiting in line.

Since I want to assume positive intent on Disney’s part here for sake of argument. Are guest surveys contributing to this evolution in mindset? Post-COVID concerns?

I still remember the 4 hour wait down Main Street in 1995 when I went with my family for Indiana Jones. While it was chaos it’s also a memory I’ll never forget. But then again opening day of RoTR was also a great memory but I also remember the momentary chaos and panic/disappointment for some of people around us who didn’t get a boarding group.

I guess in a nutshell I don’t think there’s ever a perfect crowd control system. I just worry about the deterioration of the guest experience for those who aren’t tech savvy or “in the know” about the latest processes and simply want to soak in the parks without a crash course on all the new systems.

 

[waltography]

“Do you have to remain seated too?” “No Mickey, I’m just a voice.”