Proof of Vaccination or Negative COVID Test required for theme parks soon?

[No Name]

An American healthy child has more risk from drowning in a backyard pool or dying in a car crash than dying from Covid.

And they have an almost infinitely greater risk of dying from Covid than dying from the vaccine.

 

[TP2000]

And they have an almost infinitely greater risk of dying from Covid than dying from the vaccine.

Yes, I agree. But when you realize the infinitesimally small chance of a healthy child dying of Covid, it's perfectly acceptable to me for a parent to want to see more information and more time lapse before he adds a Covid shot to his child's roster of shots.

The Measles shot is routine now. But it was a vaccine in development and testing for over a decade before it was released publicly in 1964. And now it has almost 60 years of evidence to know its affects and trustworthiness.

It's not odd to me why a parent would be wary of the Covid shot for their healthy child, since the Covid vaccine has only been in development for 18 months and was only put into use 9 months ago.

 

[TP2000]

The whole purpose of misinformation is to look factual. Random numbers that are correct but without context and improperly compared to other numbers all mushed together paint a picture very different from the truth.

You realize this is a discussion forum about amusement parks, and not a dissertation to receive a Doctorate, right?

Just the claim of 3,100 American children dying of polio in 1952 is not true. That number is for all Americans who died of polio that year. Polio did not just afflict children. Remember, FDR was an adult when he contracted polio.

You are wrong. In 1952 the total number of Polio deaths in America was 3,145. The vast majority of those deaths were children, as Polio primarily kills children, and usually only paralyzes adults who get it. Like FDR.

From that famously right-wing mouthpiece NPR comes this handy piece of fact-checked information;

By the 1950s, polio had become one of the most serious communicable diseases among children in the United States.

In 1952 alone, nearly 60,000 children were infected with the virus; thousands were paralyzed, and more than 3,000 died. Hospitals set up special units with iron lung machines to keep polio victims alive. Rich kids as well as poor kids were left paralyzed."

Wiping Out Polio: How The U.S. Snuffed Out A Killer

During the early 20th century, polio killed thousands of American children each summer and paralyzed many more. Now, as the world fights to eradicate the virus globally, we look back at the development of the polio vaccine and its successful deployment around the world.

www.npr.org

But why 1952? That isn’t the last year before the polio vaccine was introduced in 1955. No, 1952 is the single worst recorded year for cases and the second worst year for deaths in the US. 1951 and 1953 only saw about half as many deaths. The 1950s also saw an increase in cases.

What's a thousand or two thousand dead children among friends? 1949 saw 2,720 deaths, 1951 saw 1,551 deaths, 1952 saw 3,145 deaths.

You say potato, I say pohtahto. Polio still killed a lot of kids every year.

Which is exactly why I used 1952, because it's widely used in academia as the worst Polio year just before the vaccine became available in 1955. Nothing sinister, just convenient truth directly related to the discussion of how panicky 1950's parents were and how thankful they were to suddenly get their child a Polio vaccine. It was a clear part of our discussion.

Then there is the peppering of lies of about the vaccine development timeline and long term issues. The development of the COVID-19 vaccines goes back years for both the mRNA vaccines and the viral vector vaccines. What makes these technologies so amazing is their adaptability.

Covid-19 wasn't even known about by humans until 2019. That's what the '19 stands for, remember?

They've been working on mRNA vaccine technology for years. I remember first reading about it in an article about an HIV vaccine in development. The Covid-19 vaccine is new and was first released widely to Americans in January, 2021.

So yeah, I think mislabeled data, selectively chosen data, data without context and outright lies all presented as fact qualify as misinformation.

Absolutely hysterical! You are such a grumpy rip of a person, but I just love you for it!

This is a silly discussion board for a few dozen nerdy Disneyland fans. And yet you're here waiting to bestow Doctorates on us based on our Senior Thesis and final dissertations.

I stand by all of the previous statements made here, and by all of the links to reputable government agencies like the California Department of Public Health, and media outlets like NPR, Time Magazine, etc. that I included. Have fun with it kids!

 

[Bullseye1967]

The whole purpose of misinformation is to look factual. Random numbers that are correct but without context and improperly compared to other numbers all mushed together paint a picture very different from the truth.

Just the claim of 3,100 American children dying of polio in 1952 is not true. That number is for all Americans who died of polio that year. Polio did not just afflict children. Remember, FDR was an adult when he contracted polio.

But why 1952? That isn’t the last year before the polio vaccine was introduced in 1955. No, 1952 is the single worst recorded year for cases and the second worst year for deaths in the US. 1951 and 1953 only saw about half as many deaths. The 1950s also saw an increase in cases.

Then there is the question of magnitude. 3,100 deaths in a year is a lot (but wasn’t every year) but it was also out of nearly 58,000 cases. That’s about 5% of cases, and that also seems like a lot. That number though is only people who developed full blown paralytic polio, which is about 1/2% of those who get infected by the polio virus. Getting paralytic polio does not mean a guaranteed lifetime of paralysis and many recovered. Nearly ¾ of people infected with the polio virus never have symptoms. Only about ¼ have flu like symptoms. So those deaths are only about 0.025% of infections.

There’s the whole dying “with COVID” nonsense.

Then there is the peppering of lies of about the vaccine development timeline and long term issues. The development of the COVID-19 vaccines goes back years for both the mRNA vaccines and the viral vector vaccines. What makes these technologies so amazing is their adaptability. Both though rely on microbiological functions that have been understood for even longer. There is no need for research into “long term effects” because how vaccines work is known. Even how the new mRNA and viral vector vaccines work is known. A vaccine is not something stored in your body, the components are broken down, used and discarded. A complication can’t spontaneously start with nothing.

So yeah, I think mislabeled data, selectively chosen data, data without context and outright lies all presented as fact qualify as misinformation.

Reported paralytic polio cases and deaths

The reported figures include both wild- and vaccine-derived type polio infections that occurred indigenously and as imported cases.

ourworldindata.org

What is Polio?

Polio, a viral disease, spreads person-to-person & can cause paralysis

www.cdc.gov

I am very familiar with Polio. My father in law had it as a child and it came back in his early 50s as Post Polio Syndrome. He has been wheel chair bound for the last 20 years and is now to the point where he needs full round the clock care. It is not a fun disease.

 

[Disney Irish]

Yes, I agree. But when you realize the infinitesimally small chance of a healthy child dying of Covid, it's perfectly acceptable to me for a parent to want to see more information and more time lapse before he adds a Covid shot to his child's roster of shots.

The Measles shot is routine now. But it was a vaccine in development and testing for over a decade before it was released publicly in 1964. And now it has almost 60 years of evidence to know its affects and trustworthiness.

It's not odd to me why a parent would be wary of the Covid shot for their healthy child, since the Covid vaccine has only been in development for 18 months and was only put into use 9 months ago.

Still wrong, as has been told here MANY times COVID vaccines for related variants such as SARS and MERS had been in development for almost 20 years. The virus that we call today COVID19 is actually SARS-COV-2 a VERY close relation to the original SARs virus, which is why its starts with SARS in its name. So they used the SAME techniques they used for SARS combined it with the mRNA technology (also in development for decades) and BAM! we have a vaccine. Its not brand new, as if it just magically appeared out of thin air only 18 months ago. Its a vaccine that while its combating a new virus is actually decades old at this point.

I know its an inconvenient truth for you. But lets stop with the hyperbole that its a "new vaccine" when its not.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Thank you. I was going to mention some of the exact stats you did, but then had to eat dinner and walk the dogs.

What breed(s)?

 

[TP2000]

Still wrong, as has been told here MANY times COVID vaccines for related variants such as SARS and MERS had been in development for almost 20 years. The virus that we call today COVID19 is actually SARS-COV-2 a VERY close relation to the original SARs virus, which is why its starts with SARS in its name. So they used the SAME techniques they used for SARS combined it with the mRNA technology (also in development for decades) and BAM! we have a vaccine. Its not brand new, as if it just magically appeared out of thin air only 18 months ago. Its a vaccine that while its combating a new virus is actually decades old at this point.

I know its an inconvenient truth for you. But lets stop with the hyperbole that its a "new vaccine" when its not.

That's like saying that when the HIV vaccine is (finally) released, I could say "Well, the HIV vaccine was around for years because they've had mRNA vaccines for years."

There's still no HIV vaccine available in 2021. Until January, 2021 there was no Covid-19 vaccine available either.

 

[October82]

Still wrong, as has been told here MANY times COVID vaccines for related variants such as SARS and MERS had been in development for almost 20 years. The virus that we call today COVID19 is actually SARS-COV-2 a VERY close relation to the original SARs virus, which is why its starts with SARS in its name. So they used the SAME techniques they used for SARS combined it with the mRNA technology (also in development for decades) and BAM! we have a vaccine. Its not brand new, as if it just magically appeared out of thin air only 18 months ago. Its a vaccine that while its combating a new virus is actually decades old at this point.

I know its an inconvenient truth for you. But lets stop with the hyperbole that its a "new vaccine" when its not.

Same story for the adenovirus based vaccines. Those go back to at least the 1980s.

 

[TP2000]

I am very familiar with Polio. My father in law had it as a child and it came back in his early 50s as Post Polio Syndrome. He has been wheel chair bound for the last 20 years and is now to the point where he needs full round the clock care. It is not a fun disease.

My mom's side had a child die from Polio in about 1953. It was particularly tragic because the vaccine arrived just a year or two later, and I know my mom helped the female relative deal with the grief for many years of her child just missing the vaccine.

It was a horrible disease. And yet, it also was one of the medical world's greatest triumphs of the 20th century when it was quickly eradicated with the Salk vaccine.

I was just reading an article earlier this summer about some of the very last patients still living in iron lungs today. Fascinating!

 

[Disney Irish]

That's like saying that when the HIV vaccine is (finally) released, I could say "Well, the HIV vaccine was around for years because they've had mRNA vaccines for years."

There's still no HIV vaccine available in 2021. Until January, 2021 there was no Covid-19 vaccine available either.

Another of many untruths coming from the anti-vax crowd.

Fact check: The vaccine for COVID-19 has been nearly 20 years in the making

An Instagram post claims HIV, cancer and the common cold have been researched longer than COVID-19 but no vaccines have resulted. This is missing context.

www.usatoday.com

 

[TP2000]

Another of many untruths coming from the anti-vax crowd.

Fact check: The vaccine for COVID-19 has been nearly 20 years in the making

An Instagram post claims HIV, cancer and the common cold have been researched longer than COVID-19 but no vaccines have resulted. This is missing context.

www.usatoday.com

What on God's green earth are you even talking about? I'm probably one of the most vocal pro-vaccine people here! I have been encouraging everyone (adults of consenting age) to get the Covid vaccine since a year ago.

I also need to ask... when was your last TDaP booster shot, (trade name Boostrix)?

And if you are over 50, you have completed your Shingrix cycle, haven't you?

 

[lazyboy97o]

I am very familiar with Polio. My father in law had it as a child and it came back in his early 50s as Post Polio Syndrome. He has been wheel chair bound for the last 20 years and is now to the point where he needs full round the clock care. It is not a fun disease.

Who said anything about it being fun? The reason I use polio as an example is because people don’t complain that polio vaccine requirements are oppressing them and robbing them of their personal choice. That less than 1% of people infected with the polio virus would actually develop polio is exactly the sort of statistic that is being used to dismiss COVID-19. COVID-19 also continues to surprise. Long COVID. Negative impacts to the lungs, heart and other organs even in people who barely had any symptoms or never had any at all. Who knows if there might be a Post COVID Syndrome that comes back to haunt people. But there are safe, effective vaccines that even supposed “advocates” are spreading misinformation about.

 

[TP2000]

One of the scariest things about the kind of misinformation you share with reckless abandon is that Covid-19 was a starter pandemic.

I'm afraid you have me confused with someone else. I don't even know what a "starter pandemic" is, much less how to use the phrase in a sentence.

If these are the lengths people (you) are willing to go to in order to not acknowledge reality, when a virus - like HIV - comes along that poses real scientific challenges to develop a vaccine for, we're hosed.

Trust me, I know HIV. I lost a short list of friends, and a few mere acquaintances or friends-of-friends, to AIDS in the 1980's and 90's. You are aware that I'm a gay man of, ahem, a certain age, right?

I have been following the development, and seemingly eternal setbacks, for the HIV vaccine for decades. We seem to be making progress in the last few years, thanks to modern technology no doubt, but a real workable vaccine remains elusive. When the day comes that an HIV vaccine is announced, don't think I won't be heading down to the Brass Rail in Hillcrest to buy the entire ugly old bunch a round! Oh, if those barstools could talk.

Ironically, the mRNA and adenovirus based vaccines are our best bets to develop a vaccine for HIV. That's part of the reason people have worked on them for as long as they have. From a safety perspective, it will be perfectly reasonable to point out that they've been around for decades. Because they have.

Yes, I've read those articles for years too. It's always around the corner, or things look hopeful, and then another setback. It took them 20 years of work to find the Polio vaccine, but it's been almost 40 years for HIV without a vaccine. I survived, for that I'm grateful, but I know people who didn't.

What are we talking about again? Because I'm pro-vaccine I spread misinformation about "starter pandemics"??? I'm confused.

 

[Disney Irish]

What on God's green earth are you even talking about? I'm probably one of the most vocal pro-vaccine people here! I have been encouraging everyone (adults of consenting age) to get the Covid vaccine since a year ago.

I also need to ask... when was your last TDaP booster shot, (trade name Boostrix)?

And if you are over 50, you have completed your Shingrix cycle, haven't you?

Its the old anti-vax stance that if we don't have an HIV vaccine yet after 40 years how can we trust a vaccine made in less than 12 months for COVID19. Its pack full of BS and lies. I'm not claiming that you're anti-vax, just that the information you're posting is coming right from the anti-vax playbook.

Let me give you an analogy. Think of the COVID19 virus as a new model of car brand that you've seen for decades and a vaccine is a mechanic. The mechanic has been fixing this brand of cars for 20 years but doesn't know about the new model. All they need to do is learn about the new features and differences between the old model and they can fix the latest model. That is what we have here with the COVID19 vaccine.

Whereas the HIV virus is a completely new mode of transportation that no one has seen before and no mechanics know how to fix. And on top of that its a mode of transportation that is constantly changing so its hard to train a new mechanic when its already changed.

 

[TP2000]

Its the old anti-vax stance that if we don't have an HIV vaccine yet after 40 years how can we trust a vaccine made in less than 12 months for COVID19. Its pack full of BS and lies. I'm not claiming that you're anti-vax, just that the information you're posting is coming right from the anti-vax playbook.

Let me give you an analogy. Think of the COVID19 virus as a new model of car brand that you've seen for decades and a vaccine is a mechanic. The mechanic has been fixing this brand of cars for 20 years but doesn't know about the new model. All they need to do is learn about the new features and differences between the old model and they can fix the latest model. That is what we have here with the COVID19 vaccine.

Whereas the HIV virus is a completely new mode of transportation that no one has seen before and no mechanics know how to fix. And on top of that its a mode of transportation that is constantly changing so its hard to train a new mechanic when its already changed.

I'm pro-vaccine. All vaccines. I got a Covid vaccine months ago. I plan to get a booster shot at CVS soon (because I have it on good authority they aren't checking anything and are happy to just give out Covid shots to whoever wants one whenever).

That said.... None of us knew what a Covid-19 was just 20 months ago. There was no Covid-19 vaccine available to Americans until January, 2021. I can fully understand that the medical technology to create this vaccine existed prior to this particular Covid-19 strain.

Thus, I feel it is appropriate for a parent like @mickEblu to feel apprehensive about giving a Covid shot to his healthy child. That's a decision the parent should be trusted to make in my opinion for all vaccines; Covid, Measles, even Polio if there's some religious or cultural reason. But with the quick 20 month timeline of Covid-19 in our lives, a parent pausing for more information before giving new medicine to a child is completely understandable to me.

 

[Disney Irish]

Ohh!!! Got it. I honestly wasn't getting it. This must be where @October82 is coming from too in his criticism of my opinion?

I'm pro-vaccine. All vaccines. I got a Covid vaccine months ago. I plan to get a booster shot at CVS soon (because I have it on good authority they aren't checking anything and are happy to just give out Covid shots to whoever wants one whenever).

That said.... None of us knew what a Covid-19 was just 20 months ago. There was no Covid-19 vaccine available to Americans until January, 2021. I can fully understand that the medical technology to create this vaccine existed prior to this particular Covid-19 strain.

Thus, I feel it is appropriate for a parent like @mickEblu to feel apprehensive about giving a Covid shot to his healthy child. That's a decision the parent should be trusted to make in my opinion for all vaccines; Covid, Measles, even Polio if there's some religious or cultural reason. But with the quick 20 month timeline of Covid-19 in our lives, a parent pausing for more information before giving new medicine to a child is completely understandable to me.

No one is saying that a parent can't feel apprehensive or shouldn't be informed. But at the same time the goal here is to clear up all those misunderstanding and lies about the vaccine and the virus so that a parent can make a REAL informed decision not one full of anti-vax propaganda.

Also if you don't want other posters calling your posts misinformation or thinking you're deep down anti-vax then maybe stop posting information right out of the anti-vax playbook.

 

[TP2000]

I wasn't being facetious in saying that your comments are tragic. Despite every reason to doubt your sincerity, I actually believe you.

And that doesn't make it better.

Honestly, about my only medical advice to you is to get a Covid shot. That's my medical advice to everyone here actually, and always has been. For what little my medical advice is worth.

But I think it's been proven that once you've got your Covid, you'll survive. (To continue the Disco theme, because seriously can you imagine party that's going to happen when the HIV vaccine finally shows up?!?)

 

[TP2000]

No one is saying that a parent can't feel apprehensive or shouldn't be informed. But at the same time the goal here is to clear up all those misunderstanding and lies about the vaccine and the virus so that a parent can make a REAL informed decision not one full of anti-vax propaganda.

I'm not a parent, and never will be. I'm a pretty good uncle, but that's nothing really. So I tip-toe into parenting advice very slowly. I think it's really up to @mickEblu how he parents his children. And it's up to him to do the research and homework that parenting demands. I'm sure he's up to that task, as he seems like a sane and intelligent father.

But if anyone is getting serious medical or parenting advice from a Disneyland fan message board, then that person is an idiot.

Also if you don't want other posters calling your posts misinformation or thinking you're deep down anti-vax then maybe stop posting information right out of the anti-vax playbook.

It's only @lazyboy97o who uses that fashionable word so freely. It's so silly, as if hard data and scientific facts presented with reasonably good grammar can be considered "misinformation". Now, he may disagree with my opinion, such as my opinion that a parent should be allowed to make medical decisions for their child in their own good time.

But it usually goes beyond that, and is personal for some reason. He genuinely seems to dislike me and a few others here, even though I've never met him in person (unless he's secretly my dry cleaners or something). But it's all done with such extremes of personality and bluntness that it becomes part of the fun here. Don't worry about me. I'll survive, remember!

 

[Disney Irish]

But if anyone is getting medical or serious parenting advice from a Disneyland fan message board, then that person is an idiot.

Be that as it may, its still appropriate to correct misinformation on this topic just as you've personally tried to correct misinformation in other topics.

 

[TP2000]

Be that as it may, its still appropriate to correct misinformation on this topic just as you've personally tried to correct misinformation in other topics.

True. But the data and media sources I use are generally correct (and if they aren't, the California Department of Public Health has a much bigger problem on its hands!).

You appear to disagree with my personal opinion on stuff, like parenting decisions.

You don't disagree with the actual facts and data I provide. You disagree with my personal opinion based on that data. That's all.

It also appears to anger folks that I dare to voice an opinion that would be forbidden in the Faculty Lounge or a campus coffee shop. And that is absolutely hysterical to me! No dissent allowed, you must obey and stick only to approved Talking Points.