Frozen Ever After vs Maelstrom

[Brer Panther]

So, from what I'm getting at here, clearly Maelstrom needed a joke about being gassy.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I'm in my 60s my boys are men I am not watching Frozen. Unless John Wayne is in it. Is he?

That's your choice, but if it were me at 73, my daughters are mid and beyond 40's and have 4 grandkids w/three in their 20's, and I had to have John Wayne in a movie to be worth watching I'd have to say that my inner child preceded me in death. Well, I'm gonna have to tell you partner, no, he's not in it!

Spoiler: Interesting Fact...

You have just witnessed the best in print imitation of John Wayne talking.

 

[graphite1326]

That's your choice, but if it were me at 73, my daughters are mid and beyond 40's and have 4 grandkids w/three in their 20's, and I had to have John Wayne in a movie to be worth watching I'd have to say that my inner child preceded me in death. Well, I'm gonna have to tell you partner, no, he's not in it!

Spoiler: Interesting Fact...

You have just witnessed the best in print imitation of John Wayne talking.

well I'll tell ya pilgrim, A man’s got to have a code, a creed to live by.

 

[rreading]

Most naysayers will use the "walk on" excuse as a reason why they never liked Maelstrom. But then again these are the same people who rode it just to kill time and never paid any attention to the ride itself.

Why would someone dislike something just because it was a walk-on? I loved the Peoplemover for years before people realized that it was enjoyable and started queueing for it.

Were the ride Maelstrom ridden in reverse, it may have been more enjoyable for me. As it was, it created a great impression that there was going to be a great ride in its lift, and then it just got worse and worse as the ride went on. "We used to have great gods and trolls. Now it's just polar bears and oil rigs."

Had it started with oil rigs and polar bears building to showcase trolls, vikings and their gods, it may have been more engaging.

 

[UNCgolf]

Why would someone dislike something just because it was a walk-on? I loved the Peoplemover for years before people realized that it was enjoyable and started queueing for it.

Were the ride Maelstrom ridden in reverse, it may have been more enjoyable for me. As it was, it created a great impression that there was going to be a great ride in its lift, and then it just got worse and worse as the ride went on. "We used to have great gods and trolls. Now it's just polar bears and oil rigs."

Had it started with oil rigs and polar bears building to showcase trolls, vikings and their gods, it may have been more engaging.

Yeah -- I don't really get the love for Maelstrom.

It was absolutely a better ride than Frozen Ever After if only because it actually made sense in the pavilion/World Showcase (although I think it was better overall even if that wasn't a factor), but it was far from being any kind of masterpiece.

 

[Goofyernmost]

MK is fantasy. EPCOT hasn't been about fantasy til recently. The original EPCOT had little IP in it. They could have continued that path but most GP only care about something if IP is attached.

EPCOT would so much better had they decided to continue what they started and added in the original attractions that were planned. EPCOT once had the best attractions in all of WDW with Horizons and World of Motion. It's now gone away from it's original theme to just another IP based park.

I won't disagree that to me that much of the original EPCOT was fascinating, entertaining and just plain fun for those that liked to be educated on vacation. However, reality was that the general public was not all that enamored with the concept. If we were to face facts some of the attractions like Imagination originally was hugely interesting until the original one little spark sequence was done, the rest was nap time for many. Horizons was ok but impossible to upgrade because almost none of the future projections had been reached so there was never anything to upgrade. If anything they would have had to downgrade. We don't live in high tech city's, we do have facetime, we don't have underwater communities or even space inhabitants except in the space station and that is a very limited population. The best part of Imagination was Honey I Shrunk the Audience which was indeed one of those unmentionable IP's that everyone loves to hate. Other then removing the spectacular turntable on this ride, the thing that mostly killed the pavilion for me was when they decided to capitalize on the untimely death of Michael Jackson. Captain OH NO, was pointless and not suitable for children forced to witness crotch grabbing and that wasn't all that popular when it was there almost in the beginning. The original Energy was the longest Exxon captive audience infomercial ever created. Ellen was much better but, even that was, dare I say it, an IP. World of Motion was one of the best shows ever produced but since GM sponsored it they held creative control and wanted to change from a funny, interesting history of transportation to a commercial for Chevy with it's third reincarnation. EPCOT wasn't without many flaws, but we originals were captivated by it's enormity of the imagination of it's creation. SSE really has stayed potentially the same except for the very ending.

The eat, drink, puke and smell the roses festivals were there to try and bring people into the park. It did bring them in, but at the expense of creativity that should have been connected with EPCOT. When EPCOT.3 is complete, I am hopeful that it can sell itself as a combination MK and Epcot. Balancing the two to keep people going through the gates.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Why would someone dislike something just because it was a walk-on? I loved the Peoplemover for years before people realized that it was enjoyable and started queueing for it.

They wouldn't dislike it necessarily, just not getting psychologically impressed because a ride attraction that has no line will eventually be replaced and that was exactly what happened. The people-mover was never a sell type of attraction, it was a rail version of the overhead gondola's. In other words just a thing for people to do with no other purpose than to show WDW's technology.

 

[J4546]

I dont get the love for old Epcot, I mean I get it but all the hate to the new stuff coming because its IP based...most if not all the rides were advertisements for other companies. "Sponsored by GE, sponsored by Chevy etc" ...... I feel like Id rather have rides that are based on Disney stuff than rides that are commercials for other companies.

I think alot of disdain in general just comes from age...when you/i/we were young everything was cooler and better and we all miss our youth but change is inevitable. And I get it, I miss many things from childhood from rides to so many things as well and will love every attraction that has a reference from my youth, but kids 6-18 arent attached to the same things as I am. I mean most adults on this board seem to dislike webslingers a lot, but most children, who the ride is catered to, love it. Its basically an updated fantasyland style darkride for the current younger generation based on a current popular IP. Just like the old fantasyland was made by and for another generation based on popular at the times IP. That doesnt mean kids wont enjoy them both, kids will enjoy both immensely because theyre kids and disney parks are a paradise for them (and everyone). but the kids today dont have the same attachment toward pinnochio or cinderella or alice in wonderland as much is they have towards marvel or frozen or moana stuff because thats what they are growing up with... shoot I wouldnt be suprised if one of the old fantasyland darkride got reskinned into a frozen ride someday...out of the 5 darkrides id hope it would be pinnochio.

 

[UNCgolf]

I dont get the love for old Epcot, I mean I get it but all the hate to the new stuff coming because its IP based...most if not all the rides were advertisements for other companies. "Sponsored by GE, sponsored by Chevy etc" ...... I feel like Id rather have rides that are based on Disney stuff than rides that are commercials for other companies.

The rides weren't really advertisements (for the most part), though. They were sponsored by companies, but it's not like World of Motion was about General Motors vehicles or Horizons was about General Electric products. They were just tremendously good rides.

The problem with building a bunch of attractions based on Disney stuff is that the park no longer has any reason to exist. If it's just going to have the same things you find at Magic Kingdom and Hollywood Studios then it's pointless.

 

[dovetail65]

Yeah -- I don't really get the love for Maelstrom.

It was absolutely a better ride than Frozen Ever After if only because it actually made sense in the pavilion/World Showcase (although I think it was better overall even if that wasn't a factor), but it was far from being any kind of masterpiece.

Hmm I liked both!

The first time I did Frozen I was with my daughter and where the fireworks area comes in with the loud part of the Frozen song that look in my daughters eye's was something that only a dad might feel from an experience with their daughter. No one on the planet was as happy or heartfelt as me in that moment. It wouldn't have happened on Malestorm and actually didn't happen with Malestorm with my older daughter, though we both loved that too.

Now as a 56 year old man, one who loves John Wayne, sports etc, I love Frozen, the animation the ride the songs too. And my favorite all time Band is Black Sabbath.

Times change, I watch every Disney animation even though my youngest daughter is 19 now. I don't understand the changing of Disney being an issue for some, I love it and remember the old stuff fondly. Even things I preferred the old way for the most part the changes or them being gone do not make me like the new stuff or the new experience any less(so far). These changes even if they are hit or miss on each persons individual taste level do not make me like WDW any less either.

I am not a fanboy fanatic, I like value, cost is a factor, some old things I wish were still here or as I saw them for my kids to see the same way, but Disney has done nothing for me that makes me want to cancel my AP or stops me from going back more and more as I get older. On the contrary, I like WDW even better. I will not hold the trip during Covid against them.

 

[Poseidon Quest]

I won't disagree that to me that much of the original EPCOT was fascinating, entertaining and just plain fun for those that liked to be educated on vacation. However, reality was that the general public was not all that enamored with the concept. If we were to face facts some of the attractions like Imagination originally was hugely interesting until the original one little spark sequence was done, the rest was nap time for many. Horizons was ok but impossible to upgrade because almost none of the future projections had been reached so there was never anything to upgrade. If anything they would have had to downgrade. We don't live in high tech city's, we do have facetime, we don't have underwater communities or even space inhabitants except in the space station and that is a very limited population.

I don't believe that this is the case. I believe from documentation that I've seen, Horizons most likely closed because of a sinkhole under the building, compromising the structural integrity. As for Imagination, I've seen the claim from David Koenig in his book Realityland, that WDW leadership under Eisner killed the pavilion by rerouting the line to make it confusing to get to, therefore shortening its wait times. The justification for this was to bring the queue data to the sponsor so that they would renew. The same applies with World of Motion converting to Test Track. It's a matter of renewing with the corporate sponsors.

Had these things not happened, I think Epcot would have stayed very much the same, with the occasional update to the attractions. I consider these all to be the same caliber as Pirates and Haunted Mansion, and the idea that guests found edutainment boring isn't necessarily true. If that were the case, I don't think that Spaceship Earth and Living with the Land would still pull the wait times that they do. The waits certainly aren't impressive, but they're substantial enough to dispel the myth that people don't care about these things.

 

[dovetail65]

I don't believe that this is the case. I believe from documentation that I've seen, Horizons most likely closed because of a sinkhole under the building, compromising the structural integrity. As for Imagination, I've seen the claim from David Koenig in his book Realityland, that WDW leadership under Eisner killed the pavilion by rerouting the line to make it confusing to get to, therefore shortening its wait times. The justification for this was to bring the queue data to the sponsor so that they would renew. The same applies with World of Motion converting to Test Track. It's a matter of renewing with the corporate sponsors.

Had these things not happened, I think Epcot would have stayed very much the same, with the occasional update to the attractions. I consider these all to be the same caliber as Pirates and Haunted Mansion, and the idea that guests found edutainment boring isn't necessarily true. If that were the case, I don't think that Spaceship Earth and Living with the Land would still pull the wait times that they do. The waits certainly aren't impressive, but they're substantial enough to dispel the myth that people don't care about these things.

Things at WDW change for one reason and it can't be argued, to make money. Right or wrong this is what drives every single decision for every single business. Even Non profits have to think this way if they want to last and actually get money to their cause. So many people even business owners sometimes forget that. Is repairing sink holes(I guess that may not be true) or repairs upgrades going to make them more cash in the end, yes or no. Are new attractions going to make them more cash, is erasing this beloved attraction going to effect their profit, etc, etc.

So many Disney lovers think things are changed to make our trips better or because they questioned Park goers and they responded in a certain way, but those things are nothing more than a means(shorter lines, us having a better time, newer attractions, etc) to an end(WDW profit).

 

[UNCgolf]

I don't believe that this is the case. I believe from documentation that I've seen, Horizons most likely closed because of a sinkhole under the building, compromising the structural integrity. As for Imagination, I've seen the claim from David Koenig in his book Realityland, that WDW leadership under Eisner killed the pavilion by rerouting the line to make it confusing to get to, therefore shortening its wait times. The justification for this was to bring the queue data to the sponsor so that they would renew. The same applies with World of Motion converting to Test Track. It's a matter of renewing with the corporate sponsors.

Had these things not happened, I think Epcot would have stayed very much the same, with the occasional update to the attractions. I consider these all to be the same caliber as Pirates and Haunted Mansion, and the idea that guests found edutainment boring isn't necessarily true. If that were the case, I don't think that Spaceship Earth and Living with the Land would still pull the wait times that they do. The waits certainly aren't impressive, but they're substantial enough to dispel the myth that people don't care about these things.

The sinkhole thing re: Horizons has been debunked as a myth by some of the insiders here.

 

[dovetail65]

The sinkhole thing re: Horizons has been debunked as a myth by some of the insiders here.

Horizons fell victim to a flaw in the park’s sponsorship model. In 1993, General Electric chose not to renew its 10-year sponsorship of the attraction, leaving Horizons in a state of flux. Over the next six years, the ride would open and close numerous times while Imagineering tossed around several ideas ranging from a refurbishment of the existing attraction to a complete overhaul of the pavilion’s concept. All the while, Horizons was allowed to fall into a state of disrepair thanks to the lack of sponsorship money.

Eventually, the desire to build something new – plus alleged structural issues with a sinkhole developing under the Horizons show building – led Disney to go with the second option and in 1999 the attraction was closed for good. Horizons was torn down the following year, with Mission Space built in its place.


This info came from the link below and the article states the sinkhole was alleged, not that the sinkhole issue was true:

https://allears.net/2020/05/09/why-...-is-still-beloved-20-years-after-its-closure/

 

[Heppenheimer]

I dont get the love for old Epcot, I mean I get it but all the hate to the new stuff coming because its IP based...most if not all the rides were advertisements for other companies. "Sponsored by GE, sponsored by Chevy etc" ...... I feel like Id rather have rides that are based on Disney stuff than rides that are commercials for other companies.

I think alot of disdain in general just comes from age...when you/i/we were young everything was cooler and better and we all miss our youth but change is inevitable. And I get it, I miss many things from childhood from rides to so many things as well and will love every attraction that has a reference from my youth, but kids 6-18 arent attached to the same things as I am. I mean most adults on this board seem to dislike webslingers a lot, but most children, who the ride is catered to, love it. Its basically an updated fantasyland style darkride for the current younger generation based on a current popular IP. Just like the old fantasyland was made by and for another generation based on popular at the times IP. That doesnt mean kids wont enjoy them both, kids will enjoy both immensely because theyre kids and disney parks are a paradise for them (and everyone). but the kids today dont have the same attachment toward pinnochio or cinderella or alice in wonderland as much is they have towards marvel or frozen or moana stuff because thats what they are growing up with... shoot I wouldnt be suprised if one of the old fantasyland darkride got reskinned into a frozen ride someday...out of the 5 darkrides id hope it would be pinnochio.

I'll say this for old Epcot... is was great for its time, but its time had passed. Unless they really spent the money to keep the pavilions updated and relevant, this was inevitable. I really enjoyed it, but like the World's Fair concept which inspired the park, it needed constant reiterartions to maintain the same sense of wonder... and given that international Expos (the modern descendent of the World's Fair legacy) are now little more than trade shows, I'm not even sure the concept well-done and regularly updated would continue to attract enough interest to maintain a permanent theme park. So, although I miss the spirit and execution of old Epcot, I'm not complaining that its gone.

I agree with the other poster, the pavillions were definately not extended advertisements. The only parts that really reeked of marketing were Making Memories (the pre-show filler for Magic Journeys, then Captain Eo) and the post-show exhibits at the World of Motion.

 

[Poseidon Quest]

The sinkhole thing re: Horizons has been debunked as a myth by some of the insiders here.

What's the story behind that? I've definitely seen an aerial photo somewhere that looks to be a sinkhole being filled in during the construction of Mission: Space. I'm inclined to believe that it's likely just a part of the construction process, but I'm curious for clarity on the actual story.

 

[UNCgolf]

What's the story behind that? I've definitely seen an aerial photo somewhere that looks to be a sinkhole being filled in during the construction of Mission: Space. I'm inclined to believe that it's likely just a part of the construction process, but I'm curious for clarity on the actual story.

I'm not sure -- paging @marni1971 who should know.

 

[dovetail65]

What's the story behind that? I've definitely seen an aerial photo somewhere that looks to be a sinkhole being filled in during the construction of Mission: Space. I'm inclined to believe that it's likely just a part of the construction process, but I'm curious for clarity on the actual story.

Sinkholes are common in the swamps of FL and there 100% have been sinkholes at Disney(on their land somewhere). Here is one article:

https:///2021/06/disney-world-massive-sinkhole-ad1/

Sink holes playing a part for Horizons actual demise is another matter.

This says a sinkhole at Horizons causing issues is an urban legend:

Horizons: Why Disney Demolished Epcot's Best Ever Attraction | Theme Park Tourist

LOST LEGENDS: Horizons: Land, sea, imagination, communication, innovation, transportation, life, and energy... The pavilions of EPCOT Center were staggering wonders, presenting enormous topics in comprehensible ways. But only one pavilion put them all together in one. It's finally time. Join us...

www.themeparktourist.com

It's impossible for the 42 sq miles of WDW not to have sink holes somewhere(as stated in many articles) as the area is the most prone in Fl to have sink holes. Still, sinkholes being the cause of damage or change of plans or the cause of the demise of an attraction is another issue.

 

[marni1971]

What's the story behind that? I've definitely seen an aerial photo somewhere that looks to be a sinkhole being filled in during the construction of Mission: Space. I'm inclined to believe that it's likely just a part of the construction process, but I'm curious for clarity on the actual story.

No sinkhole. If there was, the ride wouldn’t have reopened in 1995 sponsor-less and have been allowed to carry guests until January 1999.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Maybe Horizons was a figurative money sinkhole.