On layoffs, very bad attendance, and Iger's legacy being one of disgrace

[Jrb1979]

That coaster has been thoroughly bashed by the praetorians on some threads here already...

...which means it will likely be awesome.

That would make hagrids and JW better from a ride aspect than anything they can muster with guardians and tron. And open well ahead

If it was put inside a building it would be loved and you know it. Lol.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Its what you get when you go away from what worked and started chasing after the Wine Mom group that will pay anything for her kids to enjoy something.

It’s worse...it’s pay, show up, scoff, and then pay the fee for the upsells.

I used to think the dads at the DVC pool bars who misinterpreted politics and sports slamming $9 sams to be the “bags”

It looks sipping scotch with hemmingway compared to the rest of their families now...

 

[MonorailCoral]

Id love to see a coaster in DinoLand that goes out over the lake and through the forest around it, but that will never happen.

I'll see that, and raise you a Tree of Life coaster.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I'll see that, and raise you a Tree of Life coaster.

You amateur...

They aren’t interested in that until Thunder Mesa, Stormrider and Fire Mountain are finished...

 

[asianway]

There is something seriously wrong when DHS is open longer than EPCOT.

Then again, they had already killed morning EPCOT for me years ago when they killed off the Breakfast Panini sandwich at The Land.

The old meltaway roll at the bakery in the Farmers market....

 

[lazyboy97o]

They already did and it's being scrapped. World class coasters aren't cheap. Most B&M coasters are usually close to $25 million.

Disney projects now routinely surpass $100 million. Disney could buy 10+ big B&Ms for the price of TRON and Guardians of the Galaxy.

WDW’s closest attempt at a regional park kind of ride is the Slinky Dog Coaster. One of the most popular rides in the park.

And Disney spent twice as much as Herschend did for Time Traveler despite Branson being further inland, having more difficult terrain and having higher labor costs compared to Central Florida

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

They already did and it's being scrapped. World class coasters aren't cheap. Most B&M coasters are usually close to $25 million.

Are you talking about Primeval Whirl??

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

And Disney spent twice as much as Herschend did for Time Traveler despite Branson being further inland, having more difficult terrain and having higher labor costs compared to Central Florida

They’ve got some concrete Mattel toys next to the track...have you NOT noticed?!?

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

Id love to see a coaster in DinoLand that goes out over the lake and through the forest around it, but that will never happen. PLus universal has the best Dino IP and that new coaster theyre building looks sick

Wasn’t there a Indiana Jones wooden roller coaster rumored to go in there?

 

[Touchdown]

Montu, alpengeist, magnum, the beast, the cyclone, thunderbolt.

Those are my “untouchables”

I also like the “hyper Humpers” - Apollo’s chariot, nitro, mako, etc

We really are kindred spirits, I haven’t ridden the OG cyclone yet, and I’m not fully enamored with Kennywoods woodies (except for lucking into a back row ride on Jack Rabbit I much prefer Phantoms Revenge and their flat collection) but I agree with all of your untouchables, I would substitute The Voyage and the Yankee Cannonball (it’s my first coaster, I wasn’t even 3 the first time I rode it) for the two woodies I took off my list.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Wasn’t there a Indiana Jones wooden roller coaster rumored to go in there?

Close...

The “excavator”...themed around a dig site

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

We really are kindred spirits, I haven’t ridden the OG cyclone yet, and I’m not fully enamored with Kennywoods woodies (except for lucking into a back row ride on Jack Rabbit I much prefer Phantoms Revenge and their flat collection) but I agree with all of your untouchables, I would substitute The Voyage and the Yankee Cannonball (it’s my first coaster, I wasn’t even 3 the first time I rode it) for the two woodies I took off my list.

The cyclone is just a must do...when I happen to be hurriedly trying to get out of Brooklyn for work...I’ll divert and do it occasionally.

The T-bolt is just living history...as are the jack and the racer.

My first coaster - ever - was on the Jack. John Miller double dip that is still one of the more scary moments of any coaster ever built.

I’ve lead a good life...no matter what I type

 

[doctornick]

Prior to the mid-90s, the Disney parks were viewed in a more holistic manner. What was most important is if Walt Disney World was profitable. This is why things like the Antique Story in Liberty Square to exist. It was there for the atmosphere and what it lacked in sales were made up elsewhere. This occurred across the property where something would be sort of loss leaders to create a strong impression of value and experience. The 90s saw a shift to a more mall-based retail model where every square foot was assessed for its profitability.

Absolutely, the experience has been watered down as we discuss all too often on these pages. Where I would question is whether that's really been "bad for business" as the parks seem to have been thriving financially and with attendance despite all the changes we bemoan on here. I'm not saying that I agree with those decisions, only that the reckoning that many on here seem to suggest is right around the corner has yet to happen.

Could this erode the fan base over time? Maybe. I agree that it's possible that the way the parks have been handled may result in future generations not being as enamored as past ones. And maybe that "rite of passage" of going to Disney might disappear into yesterday. Or maybe not.

Granted the pandemic has shot it all to bits, but that would have happened no matter what they had done with the parks in the last quarter century. It's not like revenues are down because they shoved Frozen into the Norway pavilion and people are annoyed.

The business has shifted now to focus more on providing “value” to deal with crowds that were assumed as a baseline instead of the base experience. As soon as there are fewer people it’s easier to notice that there is not much to do and no incentive to buy access to something that promises a respite from the crowds.

Agree that we've seen that business philosophy occur. But my hot take would be that they started at a certain baseline. They upped prices and cut experiences so that profit margins are that much higher. If the current pandemic and the lower crowds means that people aren't buying "respite from crowds" that that's just less revenue coming in. But the same basic revenue as before (your more basic tickets, whatever hotel rooms they sell, food/merch) is still in place. I don't see how that makes them "worse" off than before, just returning back to lower revenue per guest numbers - something Wall St won't like, I guess, but not exactly meaning that the parks will shutter.

They drove off a squillion modest income middle class guests while hosing down their new core audience of lifer guests who visit several times per year (high revenue out of town demographics as Chapek puts it).

Said new audience is now dramatically “down scaled” as the business people say it. High credit lines don’t = incomes.

I'm very skeptical. I think that tons of middle class people still go to Disney, from all over the country and world. The attendance isn't what it is on the backs of people coming multiple times a year from out of town. Everyone I know still does the at least one in a lifetime visit with their kids, many go every few years at least. Sometimes that means saving, sometimes that means credit card debt. But they still come if they can; I don't think the board's perception of "not worth the cost" is really that of the general public.

I agree about the pandemic and state of the economy affecting credit and finances and the parks are going to be taking a hit for a while - even if the virus is gone. But that's just a broad economy/vacation based issue, not specific to Disney or how they've run the parks. If they need to, they run promotions and discounts and make the parks seem like a "bargain" compared to previous costs in order to bring people back. Some execs and Wall St may not like that idea and culd view it as "devaluing" but the reality is in a post-COVID world, business will do what they need to and the sharp pencil guys will understand.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that I like how Disney has run the park in the Iger years (and late Eisner years). But the doom and gloomers on here keep suggesting that the day of reconing is coming soon and the parks will collapse and... I just don't see any evidence of it. My prospective is that people on these boards want that to happen so the parks can go back to how thing used to be (I want it too!) but I don't see it happening.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

No worries, I know we’re just discussing things.

I think the big issues before Covid were (1) parks were often busy even though attendance was essentially flat*, (2) Disney had already cut lots of entertainment and parades simply to boost quarterly numbers, (3) resorts were already playing the Room Rate Shuffle to compensate for being overpriced, and (4) there were murmurs throughout the travel industry that Guest satisfaction had tanked (“overwhelming” and “overpriced” were the two most-cited words for over a year).

But I’m just sipping wine and having a conversation with you. This is all moot. At this point, none of that matters anymore.

*thanks to FP+

I find it interesting to muse on honestly, because I feel like they're kind of losing me as a customer precisely because of that sensation of it all being "overwhelming" and "overpriced". As I've said elsewhere, I don't like feeling quite so nickel and dimed and the level of planning involved makes it feel like work more than a vacation.

Still, in the current circumstances, I wonder whether it perversely works in their favour. They're going to struggle to get anyone down to WDW when it's located in a hotspot of a global pandemic. The big selling point now, though, is that the crowds are manageable and, while you have to reserve your park, the overall planning is far more manageable. People are also now used to astronomical prices, so in the short term they can still squeeze as much out of each guest as they want. In the meantime, the company is also diversified enough that they can afford for the parks and resorts to lose money for the time being.

In the longer term, they'll have to adapt to whatever comes after the pandemic. Still, for the moment, I wonder whether the things I don't like are actually still working just fine for them.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I think the big issues before Covid were (1) parks were often busy even though attendance was essentially flat*,

*thanks to FP+

Regarding theme park attendance, it's important to remember that, historically, attendance often drops prior to the opening of major attractions. For example:

• Universal's attendance dropped 12% the year before Wizzarding World of Harry Potter opened.
• The Magic Kingdom's attendance dropped a cumulative total of 11% in the years leading up to the opening of Epcot.

Once vacationers hear about new attractions, many delay their next trips until those new attractions are open.

Disney has (had) announced plans to open major attractions over the course of several years. There will be those who wait for most or all to open before their next visit.

When I look at the numbers being reported in Disney's SEC fillings, I see a company that has done better than most at keeping Guests coming despite these publicly announced new attractions.

Since my last financial analysis at the end of fiscal year 2016, when I reported a massive increase in domestic capital expenditures:

Walt Disney World’s Biggest Investment since 1998

Domestic theme park attendance has changed by:

• 2% in fiscal 2017,
• 4% in fiscal 2018,
• 0% in fiscal 2019,
• 2% in the first quarter of fiscal 2020.

If it were not for COVID-19, Disney would be well on its way to another year of record attendance. Disney's theme park attendance had been unusually resilient prior to the onset of COVID-19.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

The new Mean Streak throws you out of your seat the whole ride. That's the kind of intense coaster I like.

The Disney theme parks weren’t conceived of as carnie parks, literally the opposite, in fact.

 

[LSLS]

I take it you are a roller coaster person

I've said this before but its worth repeating. I am not really a coaster person. However, when comparing recent visits (last few for each), cedar point was significantly cleaner, had much better trained/friendlier cast, and was overall a much more enjoyable experience. And had you told me i would say that 15 years ago, I would have fallen over laughing

 

[Touchdown]

The Disney theme parks weren’t conceived of as carnie parks, literally the opposite, in fact.

Cedar Point isn’t a carnie park, I’m getting tired of the subset of Disney Fans who feel that there is no viable option outside of Disney, heck, the way both parks are operating I would argue currently Universal is a better experience.

 

[lentesta]

FWIW, yesterday (Saturday, August 8) appears to have been the busiest post-reopening day so far at the Magic Kingdom, Universal Studios Florida, and Islands of Adventure.

I was at the MK, and the line for Carousel of Progress filled the elevated holding area, then went down the ramp, back to the Buzz Lightyear M&G location, and then over toward the Buzz Lightyear building, with a couple of switchbacks. We waited 3 shows to get in.

 

[MonorailCoral]

FWIW, yesterday (Saturday, August 8) appears to have been the busiest post-reopening day so far at the Magic Kingdom, Universal Studios Florida, and Islands of Adventure.

I was at the MK, and the line for Carousel of Progress filled the elevated holding area, then went down the ramp, back to the Buzz Lightyear M&G location, and then over toward the Buzz Lightyear building, with a couple of switchbacks. We waited 3 shows to get in.

I'm always amazed at how many people wait in line to witness the progress of what comes after flat-screen TVs and talking ovens...Oh wait.