Joe Rohde on how Avatar fits within Disney's Animal Kingdom

FigmentJedi

Well-Known Member
Think about Harry Potter over at Universal: Did anyone have to explain why that was there? No. Everyone thought, "Harry Potter at Universal! This is going to be great!!!" It fits. It makes sense. It's a popular IP with familiar characters, story, and music. (same can be said for Star Wars Land and Toy Story Land at DHS).
No one argued about how Potter fit into Universal because it's a park designed almost solely around IP.

It's when a park is developed on ambitions to be more then just a showcase of IP worlds that these things run into opposition.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
At the same time, it's an odd duck really based on bad management (Guardians of the Galaxy at DCA is another) and there are a lot of folks who may actually end up in awe with it all on it's own but will know, "...it really doesn't belong."
I disagree. In an immersive environment, the feeling and sense of place matters more to whether something "belongs" than whatever intellectual exercise you want to do on a message board. It's why Dinoland doesn't work. On paper, it makes sense. An archaeological dig site in a land dedicated to extinct animals. But when you're actually there in the land, there's no sense of immersion. It fails in that regard.

Contrast that to Avatar. On paper, it's an alien planet that belongs in a sci-fi setting. In person, the land will feel like it's about the beauty of the natural world and the connection of humans to all living things. Thus, walking from Harambe to Pandora will be a lot less jarring than walking from Anandapur to Dinoland, USA.
 

DDLand

Well-Known Member
I disagree. In an immersive environment, the feeling and sense of place matters more to whether something "belongs" than whatever intellectual exercise you want to do on a message board. It's why Dinoland doesn't work. On paper, it makes sense. An archaeological dig site in a land dedicated to extinct animals. But when you're actually there in the land, there's no sense of immersion. It fails in that regard.

Contrast that to Avatar. On paper, it's an alien planet that belongs in a sci-fi setting. In person, the land will feel like it's about the beauty of the natural world and the connection of humans to all living things. Thus, walking from Harambe to Pandora will be a lot less jarring than walking from Anandapur to Dinoland, USA.
Dinoland is an interesting case. Joe said when they announced Dino-Rama "there is a time where the solution is not to design, and this is a case where we didn't need to be in a design mode."

Yet it actually ended up fitting with one of the design laws of the park in a surprisingly effective way. First it pays to know that the architecture and human environments are specifically designed to be subservient or starkly different from the natural world. That's why many times it feels like nature is slowly taking over. Certain areas of the park were even designed to be unsightly so as to further drive home how special and beautiful nature is. As soon as you step away from Harambe, you've entered a whole new peaceful world along the nature trails.

As much as we adore the beautiful human environments, those are simply supposed to be preparing you to enter the natural world. They demonstrate the tension that exists with humanity and nature.

What is Dinoland's escape into nature? It's in fact Dinosaur. The park was originally conceived as a series of Safaris and trails branching out into nature. With that in mind, the land is in fact building up to the adventure of the Safari. Contrasting Dino-Rama with Dinosaur is fascinating. In Dino-Rama it's the epitome of light hearted. They make jokes about Dinosaurs. They make light of the extinction level event that destroyed all of the Dinosaurs. Dinosaurs don't present danger; they're safely dead. The only thing keeping Dinosaurs alive is our fascination with Dinosaurs.

On Dinosaur it's exactly the opposite. Due to man's meddling with nature and greed, Dinosaurs are brought back to life. They're here and real. Wild and uncontrolled. The meteor is inbound and preparing to destroy us. Interestingly it was still man's imagination that made that situation reality. We got what we wanted. Though that's an aside.

Dino-Rama contrasts with the E-Ticket Safari in somewhat brilliant ways. It makes Dinosaur even more jarring and terrifying. We've gone from one extreme to the other.

It's also just somewhat innocently fun. It's a fun reminder of Americana and a time period Disneyland and Walt Disney World helped to end. It shows just how much our imagination can keep creatures alive that have been extinct for millennia (or even never). It's actually accomplishing its mission. If you compare it the awful similar area that was built at DCA around the same time, it shows how well they executed it.

I have to agree with @Brad Bishop, they clearly knew this debate was still a bone of contention and debate. Though now it's moot point on whether Avatar fits, as it's almost here.

I am excited for the new rides though! Finally true 21st century rides (sorry Frozen doesn't count).
 
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rushtest4echo

Well-Known Member
Dinoland is an interesting case. Joe said when they announced Dino-Rama "there is a time where the solution is not to design, and this is a case where we didn't need to be in a design mode."

Yet it actually ended up fitting with one of the design laws of the park in a surprisingly effective way. First it pays to know that the architecture and human environments are specifically designed to be subservient or starkly different from the natural world. That's why many times it feels like nature is slowly taking over. Certain areas of the park were even designed to be unsightly so as to further drive home how special and beautiful nature is. As soon as you step away from Harambe, you've entered a whole new peaceful world along the nature trails.

As much as we adore the beautiful human environments, those are simply supposed to be preparing you to enter the natural world. They demonstrate the tension that exists with humanity and nature.

What is Dinoland's escape into nature? It's in fact Dinosaur. The park was originally conceived as a series of Safaris and trails branching out into nature. With that in mind, the land is in fact building up to the adventure of the Safari. Contrasting Dino-Rama with Dinosaur is fascinating. In Dino-Rama it's the epitome of light hearted. They make jokes about Dinosaurs. They make light of the extinction level event that destroyed all of the Dinosaurs. Dinosaurs don't present danger; they're safely dead. The only thing keeping Dinosaurs alive is our fascination with Dinosaurs.

On Dinosaur it's exactly the opposite. Due to man's meddling with nature and greed, Dinosaurs are brought back to life. They're here and real. Wild and uncontrolled. The meteor is inbound and preparing to destroy us. Interestingly it was still man's imagination that made that situation reality. We got what we wanted. Though that's an aside.

Dino-Rama contrasts with the E-Ticket Safari in somewhat brilliant ways. It makes Dinosaur even more jarring and terrifying. We've gone from one extreme to the other.

It's also just somewhat innocently fun. It's a fun reminder of Americana and a time period Disneyland and Walt Disney World helped to end. It shows just how much our imagination can keep creatures alive that have been extinct for millennia (or even never). It's actually accomplishing its mission. If you compare it the awful similar area that was built at DCA around the same time, it shows how well they executed it.

I have to agree with @Brad Bishop, they clearly knew this debate was still a bone of contention and debate. Though now it's moot point on whether Avatar fits, as it's almost here.

I am excited for the new rides though! Finally true 21st century rides (sorry Frozen doesn't count).

You impressed me with that post on Avatar's place/status in Animal Kingdom moments ago. Better reasoning than I'll ever accomplish. But now you're trying to justify the existence of Dinoland. Although again, all of your points are valid and reasonable- too far I say! One must take a side on Dinoland, and the only acceptable side one can take is on the side of a wrecking ball! :geek::geek::geek:
 

Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
I think Dinoland has the same problem: The need to explain it... because it doesn't fit.

But you have the Disney storyline of why it does fit but it really seems forced. It really looks like, "We wanted to put in some off-the-shelf rides and keep the budget in check.. How can we explain this so it fits?"

The good news is that there's a large portion of the population which will buy off on why these things fit or will ignore them altogether because at least it's something.
 

DDLand

Well-Known Member
You impressed me with that post on Avatar's place/status in Animal Kingdom moments ago. Better reasoning than I'll ever accomplish. But now you're trying to justify the existence of Dinoland. Although again, all of your points are valid and reasonable- too far I say! One must take a side on Dinoland, and the only acceptable side one can take is on the side of a wrecking ball! :geek::geek::geek:
Haha I would tend to side with you. If we could get a proper well built replacement for Dino-Rama you wouldn't find me shedding tears. Unlike many of the other areas, it doesn't really make you want to linger. Its atmosphere isn't quite as comfortable.

Interestingly many of the lands would actually be rather mundane if they were dropped into certain areas around the globe, but because we're unfamiliar with them, we find them fascinating. It's all about context. Dino-Rama suffers from being both rather bland and also in a correct cultural context and in turn fails to resonate.

It's a faithfully recreated roadside attraction, but many don't want to go to a roadside attraction.

One aspect of the land that is often overlooked is just how morbid Dino-Rama is. They make light of the death of the dinosaurs and the meteorite's destruction, especially on Primeval Whirl.

It's almost kind of creepy to think that 20 minutes later you can be holding on for dear life dodging the very things you were laughing at moments earlier. I'm not sure if that's by design, but there's a message there...

Edit: There's maybe also another advantage with Dino-Rama that wouldn't stick out to me, but could be a factor. In a park with so much foreign, a little familiar may actually be desired by some of the audience.
 
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HMF

Well-Known Member
Dinoland is an interesting case. Joe said when they announced Dino-Rama "there is a time where the solution is not to design, and this is a case where we didn't need to be in a design mode."

Yet it actually ended up fitting with one of the design laws of the park in a surprisingly effective way. First it pays to know that the architecture and human environments are specifically designed to be subservient or starkly different from the natural world. That's why many times it feels like nature is slowly taking over. Certain areas of the park were even designed to be unsightly so as to further drive home how special and beautiful nature is. As soon as you step away from Harambe, you've entered a whole new peaceful world along the nature trails.

As much as we adore the beautiful human environments, those are simply supposed to be preparing you to enter the natural world. They demonstrate the tension that exists with humanity and nature.

What is Dinoland's escape into nature? It's in fact Dinosaur. The park was originally conceived as a series of Safaris and trails branching out into nature. With that in mind, the land is in fact building up to the adventure of the Safari. Contrasting Dino-Rama with Dinosaur is fascinating. In Dino-Rama it's the epitome of light hearted. They make jokes about Dinosaurs. They make light of the extinction level event that destroyed all of the Dinosaurs. Dinosaurs don't present danger; they're safely dead. The only thing keeping Dinosaurs alive is our fascination with Dinosaurs.

On Dinosaur it's exactly the opposite. Due to man's meddling with nature and greed, Dinosaurs are brought back to life. They're here and real. Wild and uncontrolled. The meteor is inbound and preparing to destroy us. Interestingly it was still man's imagination that made that situation reality. We got what we wanted. Though that's an aside.

Dino-Rama contrasts with the E-Ticket Safari in somewhat brilliant ways. It makes Dinosaur even more jarring and terrifying. We've gone from one extreme to the other.

It's also just somewhat innocently fun. It's a fun reminder of Americana and a time period Disneyland and Walt Disney World helped to end. It shows just how much our imagination can keep creatures alive that have been extinct for millennia (or even never). It's actually accomplishing its mission. If you compare it the awful similar area that was built at DCA around the same time, it shows how well they executed it.

I have to agree with @Brad Bishop, they clearly knew this debate was still a bone of contention and debate. Though now it's moot point on whether Avatar fits, as it's almost here.

I am excited for the new rides though! Finally true 21st century rides (sorry Frozen doesn't count).
With all due respect that's a much fancier way of concocting a theme based on the fact that they wanted it built on the cheap.
 

FigmentJedi

Well-Known Member
Interestingly many of the lands would actually be rather mundane if they were dropped into certain areas around the globe, but because we're unfamiliar with them, we find them fascinating. It's all about context. Dino-Rama suffers from being both rather bland and also in a correct cultural context and in turn fails to resonate.

It's a faithfully recreated roadside attraction, but many don't want to go to a roadside attraction.
Except it isn't. I have never seen nor heard of a roadside dinosaur attraction taking the form of a wacky carnival. A faithfully recreated roadside attraction themed ride would be more like a land-based extinct creatures equivalent to the Jungle Cruise. A journey through a forest of whimsically off-kilter caricatures of prehistoric beasts.
 

Disney4family

Well-Known Member
I know im in the minority, I still see nothing exciting about this project.
I guess I'm worse. I've never even seen the movie and still have no desire to see it.
I'm sure one day, many years from now, when the lines have died down to a wait of only a decade of my life, I'll see what it's all about. Until then, everyone else can go there so the line for Everest will be shorter...
 

disney4life2008

Well-Known Member
I guess I'm worse. I've never even seen the movie and still have no desire to see it.
I'm sure one day, many years from now, when the lines have died down to a wait of only a decade of my life, I'll see what it's all about. Until then, everyone else can go there so the line for Everest will be shorter...

That is my issue. I never watched the movie and its been so long since the movis cameout and this was announced, it's boring to me. Looking at florescent lights, plants is not exciting. You are right, people will fawn over this and i will enjoy my time on the safari
 

Siren

Well-Known Member
Sigh. Is it truly impossible to have just ONE Avatarland thread without this negativity?

Isn't there some kind of "complain" forum somewhere, for people who wish to wallow in despair over Beastly Kingdom and Figment with Dreamfinder and Food Rocks and Horizons or whatever it may be?
first and foremost you most definitely are not in the minority
I really hope you're right because that's more room for me. We'll see.

Anyway. OMG. Pandora is just so beautiful to me.
 

Bob Harlem

Well-Known Member
Joe is overrated and most of his work, although beautiful, doesn't work properly a good chunk of the time or hold up very long. Visit Pandora soon after opening if you want to see it actually working as intended.
 

yoda_5729

Well-Known Member
I've been critical towards the Pandora world and it not fitting in. I think there is several things that people find difficult to accept with the project. That being said, I do believe the people who worked on this project, at least from what we've seen, have worked very hard on it, and it does look beautiful.

For me, I'm well aware Animal Kingdom was always going to explore the fantastical world of fictional animals, as seen by the dragon being represented on the original logo. Though I wasn't 100% sold on that concept even, I at the very least saw it's potential. Humans have long had beliefs and interactions,and even feelings towards some of these mythic creatures. Right now, there is a mythic animal in Animal Kingdom, being the Yeti, and no one mentions it, in terms of not fitting in, because it does. Man has long searched for the Yeti, or bigfoot. Legendary works of literature have explored animals like dragons, minotaurs, krakens, pegasus, hydras, loch ness monster etc. Many assume that those animals are just called mythic because they are fictional, but it has more to do with the fact those animals are intricate and incredibly important to whole cultures on this planet. During chinese New Years, Dragons are all over the place. Tales of bigfoot are spread throughout wooded areas, loch ness is a tourist attraction. The Sphinx is one of the most recognized images of ancient egypt. These animals don't only represent imagination and adventure, but also the cultures that they became prominent in. For everything Avatar has, I don't think it has that by any means. The sole reason mankind was even on Pandora was to mine it. It had little to do with teh nature or the animals, and had everything to do with the rock found on the planet. Animal Kingdom had the potential to try to make these animals as real as humanly possible, to the point people would question whether or not they were real.

Some on here have compared it to DinoLand. I don't see that at all. Whether you feel Dinoland is good or not, it makes sense that something like that could exist in this magical land, on the outskirts, similarly to Dumbo's Circus situated next to Fantasyland. With the exception of Dumbo and other Disney characters, Dumbo's circus (though I believe it is very well done) has very little to do with fantasy. Dinoland is a way to explore dinosaurs, both with man's interaction with them after the fact, as well as being taken back to the time of the Dinosaurs. Dinosaurs however have had a long standing position in relation to human's interests, understandings and affections towards them. They were real, and mankind has entire occupations devoted to understanding and studying them. They also go out and find them. No movie franchise on earth, including Star Wars and Potter, have had the interest level that dinosaurs have generated over mankind.

Harry Potter over at Islands of Adventure I do feel fits in quite nicely, as originally when Islands of Adventure opened, all the lands were popular IPs, but they also were lands that were based around literature. Marvel (comics), Newspaper comic strips, Jurassic Park (originally a book), Sinbad, Dr Seuss, all can be found in literature, just like Harry Potter is. The icon of Islands of Adventure is the Pharos Lighthouse which is the lighthouse of Alexandria, renowned for it's library. That being said, I think Potter fits in fine.

Pandora, from what I've seen is not a campsite or even a carnival, both things that are unquestionably found throughout the world, but rather it's own planet. A planet that humans can't even breathe on without oxygen masks. In the movie, you don't see human figures walking around Pandora. They have to change into their alien Avatars duplicates on the planet in order to live. The transfer from Discovery island to Pandora will be walking across a bridge?? Unless there's some sort or transporter, or teleportation device, that's going to be hard to justify.

Animal Kingdom is a great park, and Avatar I think honestly takes more abuse then it probably should on these boards. I just don't see the two meshing well. If you were going to take and infuse fiction into animal kingdom, it should be legend and myth, things of yesterday that have aged and grown with us all on this Earth. Science fiction, just doesn't do that. The creatures from Pirates of the Caribbean have more cultural and lasting impact both in legacy, but also being directly attached to mankind. Literally if it wasn't for the rock on Pandora, mankind wouldn't care about Pandora, it'd just be another planet. in the vast galaxy. It's not even part of our solar system. Krakens, dragons, mermaids, and unicorns are fictional beasts made from the minds of man, and influenced throughout this planet. There so old and so storied, few no where the first reference of them came. Every single animal mentioned there has been displayed existing on Earth. They are a part of our history and culture. Avatar is a really popular movie, but it's just a movie. It didn't even produce a comic book or novel series.

One way Avatar will help the park, is at night, as it's glowing forests should be a draw for people who are staying late at the park. Since fireworks can't be exploited, and animals go in after dark, at least many of them do, it is a reasonable advance to come up with things to do at night. I think that is a good idea, though I don't know that a whole land was needed.
 
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