News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[Chip Chipperson]

Mostly likely this isn't true. If Disney were really doing this to score political points, the time to do it would have been a couple months ago in the heat of battle. Disney announcing it now, is only to their benefit and no one else.

It could be that they needed to gather data to weigh the costs of staying put in Anaheim (at least for now) with the benefits of moving those jobs to FL to see if it would be too big of a loss to justify postponing the move. Remember, the governor and legislature didn't give much warning that the dissolution bill was going to happen, so any immediate reaction by Disney would be of the knee-jerk variety. It could be that there were some back-channel, unofficial messages sent back and forth between Disney and to governor (i.e., a corporate lawyer knows someone in the DeSantis administration and has informal discussions) and when those went nowhere, Disney decided to pump the brakes on the move. They certainly have enough plausible deniability that it's in response to DeSantis and the legislature's actions (assuming they'd even want to deny it if pressed for an explanation). It's not like DeSantis can prove that it's NOT because the costs for building materials are too high right now - and really, the only way for him to publicly criticize Disney over the move would be for him to admit that he's responsible for making them think twice about it in the first place. We may never know the real motivation for the postponement, but it's certainly possible that it's retaliation after reviewing the available data. Publicizing that would only draw more attention to the conflict, so it's better to say nothing for now.

 

[Disstevefan1]

It could be that they needed to gather data to weigh the costs of staying put in Anaheim (at least for now) with the benefits of moving those jobs to FL to see if it would be too big of a loss to justify postponing the move. Remember, the governor and legislature didn't give much warning that the dissolution bill was going to happen, so any immediate reaction by Disney would be of the knee-jerk variety. It could be that there were some back-channel, unofficial messages sent back and forth between Disney and to governor (i.e., a corporate lawyer knows someone in the DeSantis administration and has informal discussions) and when those went nowhere, Disney decided to pump the brakes on the move. They certainly have enough plausible deniability that it's in response to DeSantis and the legislature's actions (assuming they'd even want to deny it if pressed for an explanation). It's not like DeSantis can prove that it's NOT because the costs for building materials are too high right now - and really, the only way for him to publicly criticize Disney over the move would be for him to admit that he's responsible for making them think twice about it in the first place. We may never know the real motivation for the postponement, but it's certainly possible that it's retaliation after reviewing the available data. Publicizing that would only draw more attention to the conflict, so it's better to say nothing for now.

I agree with your speculations. But be careful, you may be accused of making baseless claims

 

[lazyboy97o]

I agree with your speculations. But be careful, you may be accused of making baseless claims

He isn’t repeating stuff that is unknown as fact or repeating long debunked nonsense. That’s the difference. You continue to declare that the District is definitely being dissolved, now declare that Lake Nona isn’t happening and ignore the years of trends of moving jobs to Florida.

 

[Disstevefan1]

He isn’t repeating stuff that is unknown as fact or repeating long debunked nonsense. That’s the difference. You continue to declare that the District is definitely being dissolved, now declare that Lake Nona isn’t happening and ignore the years of trends of moving jobs to Florida.

RCID as we know it will be dissolved. Is that not a fact? I think there was a bill passed.

I hope somehow this doesn’t happen, but right now it’s the law. Will there be a similar replacement to RCID, I hope so, but it is my opinion what it will be will NOT be the same as RCID and WDW will lose the flexibility it had with the original RCID.

Regardless of how many jobs moved to Florida, Lake Nona has been paused. I will clarify it’s my opinion it’s not going to happen. I know, my opinion is baseless.

Yes, I have no documentation or receipts to back up my speculations, I am just an outsider looking at what is happening and speculating albeit baseless…

 

[lazyboy97o]

RCID as we know it will be dissolved. Is that not a fact? I think there was a bill passed.

I hope somehow this doesn’t happen, but right now it’s the law. Will there be a similar replacement to RCID, I hope so, but it is my opinion what it will be will NOT be the same as RCID and WDW will lose the flexibility it had with the original RCID.

Regardless of how many jobs moved to Florida, Lake Nona has been paused. I will clarify it’s my opinion it’s not going to happen. I know, my opinion is baseless.

Yes, I have no documentation or receipts to back up my speculations, I am just an outsider looking at what is happening and speculating albeit baseless…

The District being dissolved is not a fact. There’s a decent argument on multiple angles that the law doesn’t actually apply to Reedy Creek.

Jobs were being moved to Florida before the pandemic, so it was not caused by the pandemic as you repeatedly claimed. Explorations of ways to move or shrink Walt Disney Imagineering in specific have been occurring for even longer.

Lake Nona as a project is not paused. The work is continuing. Movement of people is paused, but the construction work was not halted.

 

[Disstevefan1]

The District being dissolved is not a fact. There’s a decent argument on multiple angles that the law doesn’t actually apply to Reedy Creek.

Jobs were being moved to Florida before the pandemic, so it was not caused by the pandemic as you repeatedly claimed. Explorations of ways to move or shrink Walt Disney Imagineering in specific have been occurring for even longer.

Lake Nona as a project is not paused. The work is continuing. Movement of people is paused, but the construction work was not halted.

NOTE: These are my hopes; not based on any facts or documentation -
My hopes are -
1. Whatever happens with the special district we used to call RCID, the taxpayers of Orange county and Osceola counties are not stuck with paying the bond back.
2. Whatever is currently being built in Lake Nona does indeed end up being the east coast headquarters for Disney parks and experiences and not just completed and sold off.

 

[GoofGoof]

Isn't that what negotiating means?

If they're negotiating, aren't two sides trying to work out details that would allow them to come to a resolution? Each side getting some stuff it wants and giving up other stuff so that the whole is better than the parts and they can get to a resolution. If you're not doing those things, are you really negotiating?


I'm sure they're talking about all kinds of other things. As I said, business and governments are very good at compartmentalization. But, if they're not hitting on RCID topics, they're not talking about a solution to RCID. That's kind of the point.

It’s very possible to talk about a situation without offering anything. Just a phone call feeling out the other side and seeing what they have to say and telling them what you would like to have happen. I wouldn’t even call that a negotiation.

How do you burn a relationship more than calling the company woke and that you don't need woke companies in the state? I'm not sure how much worse a politician could make it's relationship with Disney than what they've already done. There's no bridge left to burn here.

I think you completely misread what I wrote. The relationship burned would be between the lobby firm and/or lobbyist themself and the politician and has little to do with Disney. The implication was that if a lobbyist was to even make a call to a politician they would immediately be publicly outed and it would be reported to the media.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It’s very possible to talk about a situation without offering anything. Just a phone call feeling out the other side and seeing what they have to say and telling them what you would like to have happen. I wouldn’t even call that a negotiation.

You did call it a negotiation.

I think you completely misread what I wrote. The relationship burned would be between the lobby firm and/or lobbyist themself and the politician and has little to do with Disney. The implication was that if a lobbyist was to even make a call to a politician they would immediately be publicly outed and it would be reported to the media.

Why would the politicians involved keep this secret? Announcing such contact is a win for them. It’s exactly what they want, Disney groveling. What is the motivation for keeping all of this secret?

 

[flynnibus]

I'm not arguing just to argue. You keep telling us there must be negotiations happening, that there are things to discuss but refuse you to tell us what things things could actually be.

The magic of politics is... there are always layers upon layers for people to engage through. Back channels... relationships between lower levels.. etc.

There is more ways to stay engaged than to have straight up bargining sessions. Back channels to find out what the other party really wants.. what is on or off the table... etc.

I'm sure there are plenty of 'unofficial' comms direct or indirect between the GOP and RCID and TWDC where they have felt each other out.

I think you are getting dug in over debunking true negotiating where others really are just talking about having communications about the stakes, players, and roles. The GOP didn't just close up shop because the session ended.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The magic of politics is... there are always layers upon layers for people to engage through. Back channels... relationships between lower levels.. etc.

There is more ways to stay engaged than to have straight up bargining sessions. Back channels to find out what the other party really wants.. what is on or off the table... etc.

I'm sure there are plenty of 'unofficial' comms direct or indirect between the GOP and RCID and TWDC where they have felt each other out.

I think you are getting dug in over debunking true negotiating where others really are just talking about having communications about the stakes, players, and roles. The GOP didn't just close up shop because the session ended.

All of that still requires tangible objectives and desires. This isn’t a situation where a real issues arose and the rhetoric got out of control. Most of the half hearted pretenses have been lies. They’re not actual issues that Disney can address to satisfy a concern or problem. What are these things that could be on the table? Shouldn’t it be easy to name a few? How do they actually solve the issue and not just become a temporary concession for the next “problem” that arises?

 

[flynnibus]

All of that still requires tangible objectives and desires. This isn’t a situation where a real issues arose and the rhetoric got out of control. Most of the half hearted pretenses have been lies. They’re not actual issues that Disney can address to satisfy a concern or problem. What are these things that could be on the table? Shouldn’t it be easy to name a few? How do they actually solve the issue and not just become a temporary concession for the next “problem” that arises?

Again, you're focusing on the 'offer' phase instead of the "feeling them out" phase of a negotiation. They could also readily float ideas without committing to them in these kinds of behind-the-scenes chats.

Both sides know the current state is not possible to be the end state. Both sides know there is room for collaboration to make the desired changes either easier or harder. The next phases will be very hard for the GOP to do unilaterally and come out clean. This makes it ripe for concessions.

Even when you are dealing with a purely emotional (not rational) outburst, you can still try to work out what might appease or calm them.. and the more you can do that on your terms, the better.

Disney is no noob... they will find ears that are willing to talk.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Again, you're focusing on the 'offer' phase instead of the "feeling them out" phase of a negotiation. They could also readily float ideas without committing to them in these kinds of behind-the-scenes chats.

Both sides know the current state is not possible to be the end state. Both sides know there is room for collaboration to make the desired changes either easier or harder. The next phases will be very hard for the GOP to do unilaterally and come out clean. This makes it ripe for concessions.

Even when you are dealing with a purely emotional (not rational) outburst, you can still try to work out what might appease or calm them.. and the more you can do that on your terms, the better.

Disney is no noob... they will find ears that are willing to talk.

I’m not just focusing on the offer. Even if the feeling out stage what are these subjects to address? What ideas could be floated?

The unworkable end state doesn’t matter to those who pushed throw the law. They intentionally avoided that discussion. If it gets tossed out in court it’s just another platform for whipping people up, now against activist judges going against the people to protect the special interests of woke corporations.

Calming an emotional outburst still typically involves addressing the cause. Disney is almost certainly not going to do that.

I’m asking for information and being told I’m just being ridiculous and missing the picture. If the bigger picture is there it should be easy to describe. What are these issues that could be a place for compromise? What offering could meaningfully resolve the situation? These aren’t hard questions to answer if they exist.

 

[flynnibus]

I’m asking for information and being told I’m just being ridiculous and missing the picture.

No, you are trying to corner people into naming specific concessions and when they don't you flush the very premise that contact is possible because
- no one is reporting on it
- no one is naming the specific points being discussed

None of us have to be accurate in what they are floating to be correct that engagement is not only possible, but likely.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

It's not all of Florida though, it's the current majority legislature and governor. Those will both change over time. Disney can take an active role in speeding up or slowing down how fast that change happens if it wants, or just wait it out.

Different time horizons.

It only can't be fixed if they don't think it will ever change. Otherwise, it's just how hard is it to wait it out for that change.

I don’t even think it requires the people to change, right now it’s advantageous politically to go after Disney but after the election in November the same people who voted for it will have to face the reality of what dissolving RCiD really does, and that’s when the real negotiating (and/or backtracking) will begin.

My guess is the same people who publicly voted against Disney (for campaign reasons) will quietly vote to undo it all after the election.

 

[lazyboy97o]

No, you are trying to corner people into naming specific concessions and when they don't you flush the very premise that contact is possible because
- no one is reporting on it
- no one is naming the specific points being discussed

None of us have to be accurate in what they are floating to be correct that engagement is not only possible, but likely.

Generally subjects should be identifiable. Something. Anything.

 

[gsimpson]

I am genuinely curious. Yes it is amusing that for years the left has been trying to get rid of RCID and the right has been protecting it and now they have flipped sides but apart from both sides trying to claim some undiscernible high ground I have a simple question? Why should Disney operate under a different set of laws than anyone else in the state - say Universal Orlando? Them having their own governance is an awfully handy way to save money and equally importantly save time. When Imagineering designs a new attraction/building it sometimes takes months and on occasion even years to get it through the planning and permitting phase of Orange County. Disney just gives the plans to themselves and stamps them approved and hands them back to themselves. (I AM NOT saying Disney cuts corners but since they are the only ones looking over themselves that is a question that is interesting especially with the current Disney "every penny is ours" management style) When Universal Creative plans a new attraction after they finish the design it has to go through Orange County's various commissions and processes and for all but the most simple attractions it then goes back to Creative to be modified and submitted again (and again, and again). Why should Disney be given this advantage in perpetuity?

 

[UNCgolf]

I am genuinely curious. Yes it is amusing that for years the left has been trying to get rid of RCID and the right has been protecting it and now they have flipped sides but apart from both sides trying to claim some undiscernible high ground I have a simple question? Why should Disney operate under a different set of laws than anyone else in the state - say Universal Orlando? Them having their own governance is an awfully handy way to save money and equally importantly save time. When Imagineering designs a new attraction/building it sometimes takes months and on occasion even years to get it through the planning and permitting phase of Orange County. Disney just gives the plans to themselves and stamps them approved and hands them back to themselves. (I AM NOT saying Disney cuts corners but since they are the only ones looking over themselves that is a question that is interesting especially with the current Disney "every penny is ours" management style) When Universal Creative plans a new attraction after they finish the design it has to go through Orange County's various commissions and processes and for all but the most simple attractions it then goes back to Creative to be modified and submitted again (and again, and again). Why should Disney be given this advantage in perpetuity?

There are a lot of reasons -- for one, it's much better for Orange/Osceola County taxpayers because they don't have to foot the bill for everything in the RCID.

Also, Disney isn't operating from a different set of laws than anyone else in the state; there are tons of special districts. RCID is far from the only one.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I am genuinely curious. Yes it is amusing that for years the left has been trying to get rid of RCID and the right has been protecting it and now they have flipped sides but apart from both sides trying to claim some undiscernible high ground I have a simple question? Why should Disney operate under a different set of laws than anyone else in the state - say Universal Orlando? Them having their own governance is an awfully handy way to save money and equally importantly save time. When Imagineering designs a new attraction/building it sometimes takes months and on occasion even years to get it through the planning and permitting phase of Orange County. Disney just gives the plans to themselves and stamps them approved and hands them back to themselves. (I AM NOT saying Disney cuts corners but since they are the only ones looking over themselves that is a question that is interesting especially with the current Disney "every penny is ours" management style) When Universal Creative plans a new attraction after they finish the design it has to go through Orange County's various commissions and processes and for all but the most simple attractions it then goes back to Creative to be modified and submitted again (and again, and again). Why should Disney be given this advantage in perpetuity?

Nobody flipped sides. There was no strong effort to get rid of the District in Florida. It was largely a non-issue.

You’re entire description of processes involved in building are just completely wrong.

Neither Walt Disney Imagineering nor Universal Creative develop and sign the architecture and engineering documents that are used for permitting. That is done by third-party architects and engineers who, as state-licensed professionals, are obligated to follow state law.

Different rules apply to different places. That isn’t new or unusual. No projects at Universal Orlando Resort North Campus are submitted to Orange County because it is located in Orlando, so submissions are to the City. Universal Orlando Resort South Campus is in unincorporated Orange County which means projects there are submitted to the County and have to follow slightly different rules. Even if Reedy Creek Improvement District did not exist, Disney’s All Star Resorts would follow slightly different rules than Cabana Bay because they’re in Osceola County.

Universal Orlando Resort North Campus and South Campus are zoned as planned developments. Since receiving that designation they pretty much do not have to seek zoning or development approval for their projects. There is no submitting to various city or county commissions for approval. They submittal to the relevant building department pretty much no different than Disney projects.

Lastly, Disney does not submit to themselves. Disney is not the only owner with projects in the District. Projects are submitted to the District. Plans are reviewed by District employees, not Disney employees. The District is known for being strict, and they have no problem telling Disney what to do. They send drawings back for revision just like every building department. Yes, the District enforces a different building code but that code must meet the minimum standard set by the Florida Building Code (The EPCOT Building Code also predates the Florida Building Code and the state requiring local governments enforce a building code). The fire department enforces the Florida Fire Prevention Code just like every other fire department. Even if the District was cutting corners and rubber stamping Disney projects, a building permit is not absolution; the architect, engineers, contractor and owner are all still liable if a project does not conform to codes and the standard of care (which can easily be more stringent than codes).

 

[GoofGoof]

I am genuinely curious. Yes it is amusing that for years the left has been trying to get rid of RCID and the right has been protecting it and now they have flipped sides but apart from both sides trying to claim some undiscernible high ground I have a simple question? Why should Disney operate under a different set of laws than anyone else in the state - say Universal Orlando? Them having their own governance is an awfully handy way to save money and equally importantly save time. When Imagineering designs a new attraction/building it sometimes takes months and on occasion even years to get it through the planning and permitting phase of Orange County. Disney just gives the plans to themselves and stamps them approved and hands them back to themselves. (I AM NOT saying Disney cuts corners but since they are the only ones looking over themselves that is a question that is interesting especially with the current Disney "every penny is ours" management style) When Universal Creative plans a new attraction after they finish the design it has to go through Orange County's various commissions and processes and for all but the most simple attractions it then goes back to Creative to be modified and submitted again (and again, and again). Why should Disney be given this advantage in perpetuity?

There are over 1,800 special tax districts in the state of FL. It’s not just Disney getting a “special advantage”. If you want to compare Universal to Disney, how many miles of roads does Universal have on their property? How many acres of preserved wetlands? Are the 2 the same just because they both operate theme parks? A RCID setup wouldn‘t be much of an advantage to Universal. When Universal decided they needed a new road to connect to their new park they got Orange County to foot half the bill for it. When Disney decided they wanted a new overpass near MK they got RCID to pay for it (no money from the county) and through tax payments the vast majority of the cost was passed through to Disney. How is that saving them money? Keep in mind Disney pays the exact same tax rate on their properties to Orange or Osceola County as Universal pays to Orange County but Disney receives far less services from the counties. The taxes paid to RCID are in addition to the county taxes so if anything Universal is the one saving money by not having a RCID type setup.

Why does Disney want to keep RCID? Because they maintain control over the quality of the services provided. It’s not to cut corners on zoning, permitting or planning. They don’t need to wait for the county to fix a pothole or repave a section of road. They control stuff like the level of EMT services provided to guests and the cost charged the customer (nothing if you need an ambulance ride to the hospital from WDW). The other benefit is they can do a project like the parking garages at Disney Springs and finance it with municipal bonds that don’t show up on the books of TWDC. That was a much bigger benefit when Disney was a much smaller company and carried only a small amount of debt on their books. Ever since the Fox acquisition the billion of debt carried by RCID is pretty immaterial overall.

The politicians would like you to believe that Disney has an “unfair” benefit that allows them to pay less taxes at the expense of FL taxpayers, but none of that is close to supported by facts. If anything the opposite is true and eliminating RCID would actually be a tax savings for Disney.

 

[Disney Glimpses]

I highly doubt formal negotiations are taking place just yet. But Disney has something like 40 lobbyists in Florida who have known all of the prominent Florida politicians for years. There is no doubt they are bickering back and forth trying to figure out what a deal may look like when formal negotiations do begin.