News Walt Disney World to resume sales of Annual Passes (New sales resume April 20, 2023)

[Sirwalterraleigh]

But if they are limiting park attendance, and lines are still long with nearly every ride at MK open, for example, wouldn’t that mean ride capacity is inadequate for even the “limited” crowds being allowed into the park? I may be thinking about this backwards, though, I’ve been up for several hours and am multitasking while attending technical training.

The upsell…selling rides after you sold a ticket for rides…

…but I think even the most naive can understand what it different/going on now.

they have to rig the whole ops to make that appear to be a “home run”

just bad management…and we keep going

 

[pdude81]

But if they are limiting park attendance, and lines are still long with nearly every ride at MK open, for example, wouldn’t that mean ride capacity is inadequate for even the “limited” crowds being allowed into the park? I may be thinking about this backwards, though, I’ve been up for several hours and am multitasking while attending technical training.

I don't think you've got anything backwards, but we can't trust any of the data here other than TP because they measure actual waits. Disney is posting times at park open that are 3x the actual ride waits and people are getting frustrated and changing what they do to make up for this. Most still don't really rope drop, and by the time they get to the park the lines are actually now as long as they were at posted opening. Holiday weeks are a whole different matter, as those are going to always going to feel more crowded. But I'm looking at wait times for MK right now and they look pretty in line to me with what they would have been with fastpass. It's just a random Tuesday, but given some reduced staffing and G+ being in play, that's not terrible. Since I have been back a few times recently and keep up on this forum, I also know those times are likely inflated and I'd be able to do more without paying for Genie to make things quicker. Unfortunately the one-time guest would not know that.

So the biggest difference to me seems like the general conversation. More people in the know here were able to strategically choose fastpasses to make their day work, and now they can't. Capacity has been a problem for a long time, but we ignored it while they gave us "free" line skips. So the real change here is that we are paying for their infrastructure mistakes, instead of ignoring them.

 

[HauntedPirate]

I don't think you've got anything backwards, but we can't trust any of the data here other than TP because they measure actual waits. Disney is posting times at park open that are 3x the actual ride waits and people are getting frustrated and changing what they do to make up for this. Most still don't really rope drop, and by the time they get to the park the lines are actually now as long as they were at posted opening. Holiday weeks are a whole different matter, as those are going to always going to feel more crowded. But I'm looking at wait times for MK right now and they look pretty in line to me with what they would have been with fastpass. It's just a random Tuesday, but given some reduced staffing and G+ being in play, that's not terrible. Since I have been back a few times recently and keep up on this forum, I also know those times are likely inflated and I'd be able to do more without paying for Genie to make things quicker. Unfortunately the one-time guest would not know that.

So the biggest difference to me seems like the general conversation. More people in the know here were able to strategically choose fastpasses to make their day work, and now they can't. Capacity has been a problem for a long time, but we ignored it while they gave us "free" line skips. So the real change here is that we are paying for their infrastructure mistakes, instead of ignoring them.

Yeah, opening wait times have been inflated for over a decade. Even midday recently, TTA was being listed as 40 minutes and we were on in 15. Other rides were spot-on, while a few came in shorter than listed. I think they are still learning, 18 months later, what the wait times will be with the outdoor queues.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

…that’s not a lot of lead time for international travel…pop is limited to a few hotels as well

Pop Warner may actually explain it since resort guests still have availability. Pop Warner switched to Universal so most of the teams and their families are staying at Universal resorts. Perhaps Monday is an off day for a lot of them and they made that their Disney Day, thus gobbling up the offsite availability?

 

[matt9112]

I don't think he's saying that they are blameless. Honestly I don't think anybody would say that. I think the false narrative is that the current issues are driven by ride capacity, as they still don't have the staff to open everything yet. Of course ride capacity is a huge issue when the caps are lifted, but we're not quite there yet.

Is the staffing legitimately affecting daily ride throughput? From what i can gleen. Its the secondary stuff thats directly affected. Custodial for example and non ride ops...restaurants also come to mind. The rides are the meat. You shave everything else off before touching the meat.

Furthermore even if we go with your view it dosen't matter. Labor shortage ends...someday whether its upward wages (lol stock prices) or just a better job market for employers. Than what?

Were still underbuilt and not able to handle crowds.

Again i dont think ride ops themselves and thus Riders per hour is being directly effected. However with the caveot that park hours probably are directly affected and thus DAILY capacity is reduced. And again secondaey things like merchandising and dining is probably taking a beating.

The problem existed before covid and it will exsist after.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Is the staffing legitimately affecting daily ride throughput? From what i can gleen. Its the secondary stuff thats directly affected. Custodial for example and non ride ops...restaurants also come to mind. The rides are the meat. You shave everything else off before touching the meat.

Furthermore even if we go with your view it dosen't matter. Labor shortage ends...someday whether its upward wages (lol stock prices) or just a better job market for employers. Than what?

Were still underbuilt and not able to handle crowds.

Again i dont think ride ops themselves and thus Riders per hour is being directly effected. However with the caveot that park hours probably are directly affected and thus DAILY capacity is reduced. And again secondaey things like merchandising and dining is probably taking a beating.

The problem existed before covid and it will exsist after.

Rides don’t generate revenue/profit.

“what?!?”

…yeah…the gravy that corporate needs is the secondary sales in the park…not the tickets…the ultimate mistaken/red herring thought pattern…

would they shift/shave ride ops staff and by extension keep capacity lower to shift to revenue generation?

…the answer to this question will determine your understanding of the place you support with your dollars.

 

[matt9112]

I don't think you've got anything backwards, but we can't trust any of the data here other than TP because they measure actual waits. Disney is posting times at park open that are 3x the actual ride waits and people are getting frustrated and changing what they do to make up for this. Most still don't really rope drop, and by the time they get to the park the lines are actually now as long as they were at posted opening. Holiday weeks are a whole different matter, as those are going to always going to feel more crowded. But I'm looking at wait times for MK right now and they look pretty in line to me with what they would have been with fastpass. It's just a random Tuesday, but given some reduced staffing and G+ being in play, that's not terrible. Since I have been back a few times recently and keep up on this forum, I also know those times are likely inflated and I'd be able to do more without paying for Genie to make things quicker. Unfortunately the one-time guest would not know that.

So the biggest difference to me seems like the general conversation. More people in the know here were able to strategically choose fastpasses to make their day work, and now they can't. Capacity has been a problem for a long time, but we ignored it while they gave us "free" line skips. So the real change here is that we are paying for their infrastructure mistakes, instead of ignoring them.

The new system is just as unfair as the old. But now you need to pay to be a winner. The system is not inhernetly more fair because the price point is too cheap to make ILL and genie+ rare (like say express pass) thus its a necessity or you get bent over. Its cheap enough that most guests will begrudgingly accept fate and partake. Thus it becomes long term PAID FP+ but technically worse even if it was not monetized.

Disney in a nutshell for me is-
If you cant afford to operate a parking lot tram i have zero faith in your leadership team as a whole.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The new system is just as unfair as the old. But now you need to pay to be a winner. The system is not inhernetly more fair because the price point is too cheap to make ILL and genie+ rare (like say express pass) thus its a necessity or you get bent over. Its cheap enough that most guests will begrudgingly accept fate and partake. Thus it becomes long term PAID FP+ but technically worse even if it was not monetized.

Disney in a nutshell for me is-
If you cant afford to operate a parking lot tram i have zero faith in your leadership team as a whole.

…from the details I’ve gleened…nobody is a “winner”…

you just have a surcharge at the end of Main Street to go on the old rides you paid for at the train station…and pay ridiculous rates for mediocre things like mine train, slinky, and rise of the reboot.

 

[matt9112]

Rides don’t generate revenue/profit.

“what?!?”

…yeah…the gravy that corporate needs is the secondary sales in the park…not the tickets…the ultimate mistaken/red herring thought pattern…

would they shift/shave ride ops staff and by extension keep capacity lower to shift to revenue generation?

…the answer to this question will determine your understanding of the place you support with your dollars.

Yeah im not going to jump on that ship just yet. However to correct you i no longer support it as tough as it has been i haven't been in years. I now give uni all of my meager excess cash. The money that is too small for disney to care about.

To the point at hand. I genuinely do not think they are actively cutting capacity of rides outside of the normal when its slow run 1 track stuff. You could be right BUT i feel like the parks as a support system are probably steetched thin and thus the park as a whole is being linited. Now it is technically artificially limited capacity however the intent isnt we are cutting ride ops imho.

 

[pdude81]

Is the staffing legitimately affecting daily ride throughput? From what i can gleen. Its the secondary stuff thats directly affected. Custodial for example and non ride ops...restaurants also come to mind. The rides are the meat. You shave everything else off before touching the meat.

Furthermore even if we go with your view it dosen't matter. Labor shortage ends...someday whether its upward wages (lol stock prices) or just a better job market for employers. Than what?

Were still underbuilt and not able to handle crowds.

Again i dont think ride ops themselves and thus Riders per hour is being directly effected. However with the caveot that park hours probably are directly affected and thus DAILY capacity is reduced. And again secondaey things like merchandising and dining is probably taking a beating.

The problem existed before covid and it will exsist after.

I don't assume staffing is affecting ride throughput all that much, but until recently there were no meet and greets at MK and we're still down attractions at other parks. And when merchandising and dining take a beating, those people need something else to do. All the capacity matters.

Certainly the real solution is to build more attractions that eat up crowds. I just think the strategic blunders (laying off cast and slow rolling construction during the pandemic) have left them in a bad spot. They don't have the people they need to deal with the crowds now, so it's a catch-22.

Now if the labor shortage ends, that could allow for the return of trams, housekeeping, full restaurant menus, and I hope more streetmosphere. There are shows on the way back in the near future that will help, but the shows are likely going to help increase the crowd caps. Also never underestimate how many people get eaten up for an hour waiting for FoF to roll through once that is back. The little things sometimes make a big difference.

 

[pdude81]

The new system is just as unfair as the old. But now you need to pay to be a winner. The system is not inhernetly more fair because the price point is too cheap to make ILL and genie+ rare (like say express pass) thus its a necessity or you get bent over. Its cheap enough that most guests will begrudgingly accept fate and partake. Thus it becomes long term PAID FP+ but technically worse even if it was not monetized.

Disney in a nutshell for me is-
If you cant afford to operate a parking lot tram i have zero faith in your leadership team as a whole.

Any system to skip lines will be unfair, just different versions hurt different people. The old system was unsustainable because they gave passes to every ticket though. If you didn't build more rides to handle more people, things just got worse. It was basic math and should have been addressed a long, long time ago.

People are open to paying for convenience, however, as long as it's actually convenient. I'm not so upset by the paid aspect of Genie as I am at the confusing mismanagement and need to set alarms for when you can buy different pieces of it. It would also be better if they just told people they got 3 for their 15 bucks instead of thinking that $15 bucks was worth more to Disney than the $140 they paid to get in and now allows them the freedom to have a magical day.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yeah im not going to jump on that ship just yet. However to correct you i no longer support it as tough as it has been i haven't been in years. I now give uni all of my meager excess cash. The money that is too small for disney to care about.

To the point at hand. I genuinely do not think they are actively cutting capacity of rides outside of the normal when its slow run 1 track stuff. You could be right BUT i feel like the parks as a support system are probably steetched thin and thus the park as a whole is being linited. Now it is technically artificially limited capacity however the intent isnt we are cutting ride ops imho.

I’m at the point where I can’t get the tickets I want - very expensive ones…and I can’t use the timeshare that I signed for 16 years ago according to the contract terms…

…so why shouldn’t I be looking at booking hard rock/portofino for my next trip and throwing the pass money to them?

I’ve relayed that exact question to Disney guest comm.

if you can turn me away - all BS Aside - you have a business problem.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I don't assume staffing is affecting ride throughput all that much, but until recently there were no meet and greets at MK and we're still down attractions at other parks. And when merchandising and dining take a beating, those people need something else to do. All the capacity matters.

Certainly the real solution is to build more attractions that eat up crowds. I just think the strategic blunders (laying off cast and slow rolling construction during the pandemic) have left them in a bad spot. They don't have the people they need to deal with the crowds now, so it's a catch-22.

Now if the labor shortage ends, that could allow for the return of trams, housekeeping, full restaurant menus, and I hope more streetmosphere. There are shows on the way back in the near future that will help, but the shows are likely going to help increase the crowd caps. Also never underestimate how many people get eaten up for an hour waiting for FoF to roll through once that is back. The little things sometimes make a big difference.

The only thing that would “allow” for the return of trams, acceptable guest services, housekeeping, halfway decent menus and all the other things Disney is shortchanging is paying the wages the free market demands. Those insidious pandemic unemployment benefits are long gone - what exactly is going to suddenly change and flood the market with labor WDW can exploit? Universal opening a huge new park, entertainment complex, and hotel, all of which will increase demand for labor?

And it’s so odd that everything is back at Uni, where parks are adequately staffed, housekeeping is normal, and guest services can be reached by phone in minutes and not hours. Oh, and which just concluded a very successful, very very labor intensive Halloween event. If WDW cared about public perception, they’d curse Uni for offering a point of comparison (or Dollywood, or Busch, or etc.)

People need to stop pretending staffing issues aren’t entirely WDWs fault.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The only thing that would “allow” for the return of trams, acceptable guest services, housekeeping, halfway decent menus and all the other things Disney is shortchanging is paying the wages the free market demands. Those insidious pandemic unemployment benefits are long gone - what exactly is going to suddenly change and flood the market with labor WDW can exploit? Universal opening a huge new park, entertainment complex, and hotel, all of which will increase demand for labor?

And it’s so odd that everything is back at Uni, where parks are adequately staffed, housekeeping is normal, and guest services can be reached by phone in minutes and not hours. Oh, and which just concluded a very successful, very very labor intensive Halloween event. If WDW cared about public perception, they’d curse Uni for offering a point of comparison (or Dollywood, or Busch, or etc.)

People need to stop pretending staffing issues aren’t entirely WDWs fault.

Comcast does not fear Disney nor defer to them…and never has ( now I’m really thinking and that’s dangerous)

the problem that casting/team D has is all the holdovers that have toiled at mandated minimums (when the pr smoke clears) since the early 90’s??

it takes $45,000 to get a housekeeper now? Great…but what do you do to stop defections when the word gets out in 90 seconds?

and Comcast will throw gas on that fire.

because both companies can 100% afford it.

Now that I think about it…that’s it…I’m booking universal for the spring right now. Why am I bothering to give benefit of the doubt to an operation that has used that up long ago?

 

[pdude81]

The only thing that would “allow” for the return of trams, acceptable guest services, housekeeping, halfway decent menus and all the other things Disney is shortchanging is paying the wages the free market demands. Those insidious pandemic unemployment benefits are long gone - what exactly is going to suddenly change and flood the market with labor WDW can exploit? Universal opening a huge new park, entertainment complex, and hotel, all of which will increase demand for labor?

And it’s so odd that everything is back at Uni, where parks are adequately staffed, housekeeping is normal, and guest services can be reached by phone in minutes and not hours. Oh, and which just concluded a very successful, very very labor intensive Halloween event. If WDW cared about public perception, they’d curse Uni for offering a point of comparison (or Dollywood, or Busch, or etc.)

People need to stop pretending staffing issues aren’t entirely WDWs fault.

They are most certainly Disney's fault for laying them off in the first place. The problem they have now is in offering higher pay and bonuses to new employees than people who have been there for years. Raising the minimum also angers the senior staff who want commensurate raises in line with their experience. They'd need to bump everybody up (which I'm fine with personally). They allowed a lot of people who were more or less ok with being underpaid to walk this spring, instead of at least keeping them on the books through the extended unemployment benefits period. It was doubly stupid because now they need to train new people who have less attachment to the company, at a higher rate.

It is certainly fair if they expect a reset for customers that we need to pay more for services, that they will need to accept a reset on salary ranges.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

They are most certainly Disney's fault for laying them off in the first place. The problem they have now is in offering higher pay and bonuses to new employees than people who have been there for years. Raising the minimum also angers the senior staff who want commensurate raises in line with their experience. They'd need to bump everybody up (which I'm fine with personally). They allowed a lot of people who were more or less ok with being underpaid to walk this spring, instead of at least keeping them on the books through the extended unemployment benefits period. It was doubly stupid because now they need to train new people who have less attachment to the company, at a higher rate.

It is certainly fair if they expect a reset for customers that we need to pay more for services, that they will need to accept a reset on salary ranges.

That's a big part of the problem though...no one on Wall Street is willing to accept that people are fed up with slave wages.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

They are most certainly Disney's fault for laying them off in the first place. The problem they have now is in offering higher pay and bonuses to new employees than people who have been there for years. Raising the minimum also angers the senior staff who want commensurate raises in line with their experience. They'd need to bump everybody up (which I'm fine with personally). They allowed a lot of people who were more or less ok with being underpaid to walk this spring, instead of at least keeping them on the books through the extended unemployment benefits period. It was doubly stupid because now they need to train new people who have less attachment to the company, at a higher rate.

It is certainly fair if they expect a reset for customers that we need to pay more for services, that they will need to accept a reset on salary ranges.

Hey! Didn’t I already thunked that?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

That's a big part of the problem though...no one on Wall Street is willing to accept that people are fed up with slave wages.

That has been a bigger problem everyday since at least January of 1981…but probably longer

 

[pdude81]

That's a big part of the problem though...no one on Wall Street is willing to accept that people are fed up with slave wages.

They might not like it, but they would accept it as long as revenue grows in tandem. So this is the time to pay the piper, if they are going to.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

They might not like it, but they would accept it as long as revenue grows in tandem. So this is the time to pay the piper, if they are going to.

Nope. They kept wages well below matching inflation for decades. It's time to pay the piper.