Disney not subject to Anaheim’s ‘living wage’ ballot measure, judge rules - OCR/SCNG

October82

Well-Known Member
Todays kids are in a similar situation as our generation, just with a lot more toys.

As has already been pointed out numerous times in this thread. Real purchasing power has declined since you entered the work force. You almost certainly made more - and hence had "more toys" than your peers in today's generation.

This is exactly the mindset that drives me crazy, kids today (living in relative luxury) actually believe they have it bad compared to previous generations.

It is a fact about our economy that young people today are more skilled, make up larger parts of the workforce, and receive less in compensation than their peers in previous generations. What value judgements you make when given that information is up to you. I, at least, am not going to fault people for thinking that structural inequality - racial, gender, economic - is a problem and talking about it.

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Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
And when you show that me that person - I'll be just critical of them for whatever their sins may be. But I'm not going to go on a Disney forum and proudly put others down - certainly not for the tremendous offense of 'lacking historical perspective'.

To get this conversation back on topic. Today's young people are - statistically, factually - the best educated and hardest working generation in American history. They also have the dubious distinction of being the first generation in our country's history to be worse off than their parents. They're not wrong (or self-righteous) for telling you about it.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
That above example was from 1988, so spoke to the old Generation X group that is now middle aged. Let's do the Boomers a few decades earlier, because Boomers are even easier to make fun of!

1965. A big TV sale in suburban Missouri. Admiral was a solid mid-range quality brand then, like what Samsung or LG is today for TV's.

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That 22 inch Color TV is $449. Adjusted for inflation, that would be like spending $3,743 in today's money. Just think about that for a moment or two. Then realize that's why in the 1960's dorm rooms and young people's first apartments never had TV's; they were too expensive!
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Todays kids are in a similar situation as our generation, just with a lot more toys.

This is exactly the mindset that drives me crazy, kids today (living in relative luxury) actually believe they have it bad compared to previous generations.

Not only that, they think the world is going to end in 9 years. Or that the air is poison.

They don't even know what a Smog Alert is, and they think the planet is killing them. :rolleyes:
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
As has already been pointed out numerous times in this thread. Real purchasing power has declined since you entered the work force. You almost certainly made more - and hence had "more toys" than your peers in today's generation.



It is a fact about our economy that young people today are more skilled, make up larger parts of the workforce, and receive less in compensation than their peers in previous generations. What value judgements you make when given that information is up to you. I, at least, am not going to fault people for thinking that structural inequality - racial, gender, economic - is a problem and talking about it.

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I‘m not saying kids today have it easy, it’s all relative though, for every con you mention I can mention a positive compared to previous generations.

I got my first job when I was 12, that would land someone in jail now. I bought my first piece of crap car with my own money for $600, my parents couldn’t afford to buy me one (although they did pay my insurance), I was 39 years old the first time I stepped foot in a Disney park because flying a family of 6 across the country would have bankrupted my parents and it took me nearly 20 years of working full time before I was financially able to afford to pay for a trip myself. (That’s a hardship everyone on this board should be able to understand 😉)

Im not saying you don’t have it rough, I’m just trying to point out that every generation has had it rough. Life is hard, it always has been and always will be.
 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
I got my first job when I was 12, that would land someone in jail now.

I got my first non-family job at the ripe old age of 15. But my first job was on the summer gardening crew of a big state university. I was given a shovel, a rake, and a wheelbarrow, and that's it. No gloves. No power tools. The older guys got to use the glamorous manual hedge trimmers and the saws, I raked up the trash and shoveled the dirt and manure onto the flower beds. We kept our lunches in paper sacks on the back of the foreman's truck, and sat there in the sun on stumps eating bologna sandwiches and apples for lunch.

What's funny about that is that we were all white boys. Blond hair, blue eyes, strong backs.

Can you imagine a white 15 year old boy in California today doing manual labor on a gardening crew? With only manual wood-handled tools, no gloves, no shade hats, no water bottles? I can't.

Im not saying you don’t have it rough, I’m just trying to point out that every generation has had it rough. Life is hard, it always has been and always will be.

If life isn't occasionally hard for you when you are young, you often become an adult who is miserable to be around. 🤣
 

October82

Well-Known Member
I‘m not saying kids today have it easy, it’s all relative though, for every con you mention I can mention a positive compared to previous generations.

And that's why I'm not going to stereotype an entire generation - for better or worse.

I got my first job when I was 12, that would land someone in jail now. I bought my first piece of crap car with my own money for $600, my parents couldn’t afford to buy me one (although they did pay my insurance), I was 39 years old the first time I stepped foot in a Disney park because flying a family of 6 across the country would have bankrupted my parents and it took me nearly 20 years of working full time before I was financially able to afford to pay for a trip myself. (That’s a hardship everyone on this board should be able to understand 😉)

Im not saying you don’t have it rough, I’m just trying to point out that every generation has had it rough.

You and I are about the same age and have pretty similar stories. That's part of why it bothers me when people look down upon young people today for being vocal about issues that people should be vocal about.

Life is hard, it always has been and always will be.

It doesn't have to be.
 

RobWDW1971

Well-Known Member
I got my first non-family job at the ripe old age of 15. But my first job was on the summer gardening crew of a big state university. I was given a shovel, a rake, and a wheelbarrow, and that's it. No gloves. No power tools. The older guys got to use the glamorous manual hedge trimmers and the saws, I raked up the trash and shoveled the dirt and manure onto the flower beds. We kept our lunches in paper sacks on the back of the foreman's truck, and sat there in the sun on stumps eating bologna sandwiches and apples for lunch.

What's funny about that is that we were all white boys. Blond hair, blue eyes, strong backs.

Can you imagine a white 15 year old boy in California today doing manual labor on a gardening crew? With only manual wood-handled tools, no gloves, no shade hats, no water bottles? I can't.



If life isn't occasionally hard for you when you are young, you often become an adult who is miserable to be around. 🤣
I was telling my adult kids about my paper route at 15 - I would get up at 5:00 am in the pitch darkness and fold papers, rubber band them, and then deliver them on a bicycle all around my neighborhood before going to school.

They looked at me like I was sharing some story from 1910 like something out of Sinclair's The Jungle.
 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
Okay, gang, so let's review. Here's what I learned in this thread. Correct me if I forgot something:

1. Almost everyone who supports a "Living Wage" can't, or won't, say what that hourly wage should actually be. I think entry-level CM's should get between $17 to $18 an hour in 2022. What do you think?

2. @Cesar R M actually thinks CM's should make a bit less than I do. He's at about $17.75 for highly tenured 30+ year CM's putting out muffins and juice, like Glyndanna Shevlin does. I think she should be about 25 cents higher, at $18, even though she's been absolutely horrible in the media to her lifelong employer. But, those muffins aren't going to put themselves out every morning, are they?

3. Adjusted for inflation, the price of goods and services have mostly declined in the USA over the last 50 years, while the quality and capabilities of those products have risen dramatically. Especially luxury goods like TV's, air conditioning, appliances, trendy homegoods, etc.

4. I lost what little respect I had left for Senator Bernie Sanders. I thought he had a smart team assembling his public statements and appearances, but it's obvious he did not. He allowed himself to be set up on stage in a chair right next to Glyndanna Shevlin and used her purposely as an example of how evil the Walt Disney Company's HR department is to CM's. This turned out to be a fraud. And the public rebuttal from Ms. Shevlin, "Why should I change?", is not a good argument.

5. Soylent Green is made out of people.
 
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RobWDW1971

Well-Known Member
I worked at Marineland during part of high school. You won't believe how hard it was -answering the same stupid tourist questions over and over and folding the same t shirts a thousand times.;)
When I got hired at Disneyland during college after all my crappy high school jobs and was actually being paid to wake up Jose every 20 minutes between naps and wave a flashlight while watching the Electrical Parade and talking to cute girls on Main Street all night, I couldn't believe it.

If only somebody back then would have told me that was a 40 year gig and would pay all of my bills!
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
When I got hired at Disneyland during college after all my crappy high school jobs and was actually being paid to wake up Jose every 20 minutes between naps and wave a flashlight while watching the Electrical Parade and talking to cute girls on Main Street all night, I couldn't believe it.

If only somebody back then would have told me that was a 40 year gig and would pay all of my bills!

Why should you change?!?
 

Darkbeer1

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
OK, here is my story, I call myself an All-American Polish Hoser.

My father was born in Warsaw, Poland in 1923. (Actually stayed in the same apartment/Condo in the 1990's travelling with my Father).

During World War Two, my father, along with his two brothers escaped the German occupied area by traveling through Forest/Hunting land, ending up in Switzerland and became refugees. They stayed together, and were assigned to Canada, and placed on a boat. When they arrived, they became Canadian citizens, and got permission to work, as there were no real welfare/housing. (They stayed on a military base in tents while transitioning). They all chipped in and got an apartment, and applied to attend the University of Toronto using a war scholarship.

My mother was born in Leaside, a suburb in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Her parents lived in Croydon, England. Shortly after getting married, they moved to Canada. My Grandfather actually built the house they lived in (with help). The house held 9, Mom, Dad, my Mom and her 6 brothers/sisters. She graduated with Honors from Leaside High, and got a scholarship to the University of Toronto.

They met at the University, fall in Love, and shortly after my Mother graduated (a year after my dad). My Dad got a job with the Inter American Tropical Tuna Commission, an agency set up through the UN, so in America, the Department of State. That came with a Green Card. Back then, there was more demand from Canadians to work in the USA than visa slots by a few years. So they got to the front of the line by a vote in Congress.

The office was located in Fort Rosecrans (Cabrillo National Monument), aka San Diego. So my parents arrive in 1955 to the USA, the same year they got married. (Mom had to be married to qualify for her green card.). They found a small house to rent in Ocean Beach. My mother was a Medical Laboratory Scientist, and worked in OB. I was born in 1960 on a Saturday at Doctor's Hospital in Point Loma. My mom worked on Friday, and was back at work within 3 months. They both had a Blue VW Bug, which was one of the cheapest cars on the market.

One of the Doctors my Mom knew had bought a House in La Jolla, on the cheap side of Mt. Soledad (Bay facing). Back then, there were very few roads to the area, with lots of open space. At the same time, the National Marine Fisheries was building an office building near UCSD and the Scripps Pier. A deal was made, and my parents got to buy the house from the doctor for around $10,000, as the Dr's family wasn't happy with it. (Middle of nowhere).

While I grew up, my parents sponsored multiple folks they knew to get Visas to stay in the USA. Beck then, you had to pledge to pay for any social benefits they got due to lack of work or medical costs.

When I became 12, I was told to work on weekends, which the law allowed with a school permit. I got paid $1 an hour, a wage allowed for minors, it was $1.65 for adults. In 1974, when I turned 14, the wage went up to $1.65 per hour (Adults got at least $2), I also could work on weekdays. In fact one of my "class periods" became my job. I got graded on my work performance.

I ended up at Army & Navy Academy. My father won a big prize in the Irish Sweepstakes. He let his brother claim the ticket, since he was still lived in Canada, where the prize was non-taxable, thanks to the Queen. So he wrote the checks to the Military Academy. I got a job for a few hours a week at the Snack Bar. (Got me out of the 2 hours of evening "Study: period in your room) I then also became a member of the Security team as the only student, which allowed me to stay up to Midnight, though still had to get up at Reveille.

In college, also had jobs will attending class. Lived in apartments with roommates. After college, never had less than two jobs. Worked for the Greater San Diego Science going to classrooms to motivate students to come up with ideas for projects. Worked for a chain of Bar/Saloons, did computer billing, Tax Accounting, etc. Became a regional Manager for Johnny Rockets, working out of La Jolla.

Saving money to buy a Condo, and then rented it to friends/roommates to help pay the mortgage. After my second Condo (Still rented out the first one), and after awhile, got rid of the roommate in my new Condo and moved in the Girlfriend. Sold the second condo in San Diego to buy one in Tustin. After a few years, sold both Condos, one totally paid off, and a small mortgage on the second, to buy my current house in West Anaheim. It is now free and clear. But it took decades of hard work, and fiscal planning. My first car was a used VW Bug. Still shop at places like Audi, 99 Cent Stores, etc.

Everybody makes decisions and chooses paths to go through life. I was taught/learned that Hard Work and a good education is a valuable path, and you don't need to buy the shiny, newest things.
 

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
Okay, gang, so let's review. Here's what I learned in this thread. Correct me if I forgot something:

1. Almost everyone who supports a "Living Wage" can't, or won't, say what that hourly wage should actually be. I think entry-level CM's should get between $17 to $18 an hour in 2022. What do you think?

2. @Cesar R M actually thinks CM's should make a bit less than I do. He's at about $17.75 for highly tenured 30+ year CM's putting out muffins and juice, like Glyndanna Shevlin does. I think she should be about 25 cents higher, at $18, even though she's been absolutely horrible in the media to her lifelong employer. But, those muffins aren't going to put themselves out every morning, are they?

3. Adjusted for inflation, the price of goods and services have mostly declined in the USA over the last 50 years, while the quality and capabilities of those products have risen dramatically. Especially luxury goods like TV's, air conditioning, appliances, trendy homegoods, etc.

4. I lost what little respect I had left for Senator Bernie Sanders. I thought he had a smart team assembling his public statements and appearances, but it's obvious he did not. He allowed himself to be set up on stage in a chair right next to Glyndanna Shevlin and used her purposely as an example of how evil the Walt Disney Company's HR department is to CM's. This turned out to be a fraud. And the public rebuttal from Ms. Shevlin, "Why should I change?", is not a good argument.

5. Soylent Green is made out of people.

1) Numbers have been debated, the formula has been shared.. but still.. not like you want to accept numbers anyway, you're going to make the same assumptions and dodging or moving the goalposts over and over.

2) To resume: "HOW DOES THIS PERSON DARE TO THINK X PEASANT CAN EARN LITTLE LESS THAN MY ALMIGHTY HARD WORKING MAN"
"I WORKED HARD, SO HARD, NOONE DOES IT MORE THAN ME.. ME ME ME ME" Because thats how you sound.

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3) You're confusing "quality" with "functionality". TVs nowadays last less than 10 years on average. Same with washing machines and general equipment. Older washing machines from my family even lasted 40+ years. The new ones we have bought recently from brand companies like LG or MABE... have lasted less than 5 with good maintenance. And this follows up the "buy it and throw it" of products with planned obsolescence and consumerism. Most technology is declared obsolete in around 5-10 years for electronics. Phones for example, as powerful as they are.. are made to be replaced and discareded every 3 years on average by companies. Even to the point of blocking the production of batteries or spare parts. Yes, you can always buy the "better" deluxe and luxury models, but these costs a ton more than the average one and still wont last as much as older products.

4) Yes, she is a huge fraud.. I mean... how dares she complain that the job she worked for so long and loved.... lost a ton of the percs she used to have (like free food, discounts, park admission bonuses). And how her salary is no longer enough to pay even the most basic things when she could live comfortable back then. :)

Watching "tik toks" might be a great idea to expand on how the REAL MODERN WORLD works now and now be stuck with Reagan and the old 80's mechanics.

Its also very interesting that the exact same persons very adamant of helping struggling workers are the ones who elevate their work impressively on "how hard I worked" while diminishing others efforts XD

Wonder how many teens/20s today would volunteer to trade with their great great grandparents and live in the nineteen teens and be sent off to WW1, or happily trade with their great grandparents of the 30s for the ease of living during the Great Depression, or their grandparents of the 50s and the privilege of dying in WW2 thanks to the draft?

Wonder how many minorities and “protected” classes would trade places with their parents and grand parents who were second class citizens by law, had to live in the shadows, and had the privilege of using separate bathrooms and sitting in the back of the bus?

Our generation was lucky, we didn’t get drafted and sent off to war, we didn’t face any massive world ending crisis, the worst we had was living under threat of nuclear war and aids, we were also the first latch key generation because both parents had to work, compared to my parents and grand parents I’ll take that in a heartbeat though .

Todays kids are in a similar situation as our generation, just with a lot more toys.

This is exactly the mindset that drives me crazy, kids today (living in relative luxury) actually believe they have it bad compared to previous generations.

You mean these same kids "nowadays" that get also drafted and sent to Iraq and similar places where the enemy is no longer visible and can strike from anywhere with concealed bombs and suicide bombers?
As for minorities. You mean like LGBT who are consistently still being attacked in many places and treated poorly? Also the resurgence of white supremacist groups?

As for dates..You went back to WW2, Most of us are talking about the part between 60's to 80's where the economy peaked. Ironically we're seeing a modern "repeat" of what happened back then. COVID taking the role of the spanish flu. And the housing market crash + other crashes in turn of the great depression.

Anyway, since this chat it's going nowhere with the same cycled and recycled claims. I thank the sane ones for the decent conversation and I bid my adieu.
 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
1) Numbers have been debated, the formula has been shared.. but still.. not like you want to accept numbers anyway, you're going to make the same assumptions and dodging or moving the goalposts over and over.

No wage number has been typed by anyone in this thread advocating for a "Living Wage". In fact, I'm the only one to type out a proposed wage scale for entry-level CM work, ranging from $17 to $20 per hour depending on the department.

You still won't say what CM's bussing tables at Tomorrowland Terrace should earn per hour.

I said $18 per hour weeks ago in this thread, and you still can't even say that.

This is not a difficult question. What should entry-level CM's working at Disneyland make per hour?

Because people like you and @October82 and @el_super refuse to answer that question while pontificating for many paragraphs about the "Living Wage" shows us that you either don't actually believe a CM should make more than $18 an hour to dust churros or wipe down tables or wave a flashlight during the parade, or you don't want to admit that you think they should earn $45 per hour for that type of job task.

And that sums it all up for us. The refusal to say the dollar amount of what a "Living Wage" is says all we need to know about the people who try to make that argument.
 
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Professortango1

Well-Known Member
No wage number has been typed by anyone in this thread advocating for a "Living Wage". In fact, I'm the only one to type out a proposed wage scale for entry-level CM work, ranging from $17 to $20 per hour depending on the department.

You still won't say what CM's bussing tables at Tomorrowland Terrace should earn per hour.

I said $18 per hour weeks ago in this thread, and you still can't even say that.

This is not a difficult question. What should entry-level CM's working at Disneyland make per hour?

Because people like you and @October82 and @el_super refuse to answer that question while pontificating for many paragraphs about the "Living Wage" shows us that you either don't actually believe a CM should make more than $18 an hour to dust churros or wipe down tables or wave a flashlight during the parade, or you don't want to admit that you think they should earn $45 per hour for that type of job task.

And that sums it all up for us. The refusal to say the dollar amount of what a "Living Wage" is says all we need to know about the people who try to make that argument.

To be able to afford the cost of living in Orange County, a full time employee should be earning at least between $22-$24 per hour or $45,700-$49,920 per year. Those who have been working there awhile should be earing $24-$28 per hour.

Source - https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/06059

This still falls dramatically short of the estimated $90,922 it costs for a single person to live in Anaheim, but it is a far cry better than the current wages.

 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
To be able to afford the cost of living in Orange County, a full time employee should be earning at least between $22-$24 per hour or $45,700-$49,920 per year.

Thank you. I'm baffled why it's so hard for so many in this thread to say that.

The problem there is if you pay 18 year olds $23 per hour to be a busboy or a churro vendor or a Golden Zephyr ride operator or Mad Hatter cashier, you just blew past the current starting wages for trained chefs and pastry chefs, plus tree pruners, and dozens of other skilled and semi-skilled jobs.

So now the trained pastry chef gets how much per hour if the busboy is getting $23 per hour? $28 per hour instead of the current starting wage for pastry chef's of $20?

Realizing that the boiler mechanic currently starts at $28 per hour, what do you pay that licensed and trained journeyman mechanic if the pastry chef now gets $28 because the busboy gets $24?

And on and on and on.

There's just no way Disneyland stays in business if it starts paying unskilled teenage busboys $23 per hour. And if they did, they'd get rid of almost all of the busboys. Plus a lot of pastry chef's at $28 per hour, and mechanics at $34 per hour, electricians at $39 per hour, etc., etc.

 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
4. I lost what little respect I had left for Senator Bernie Sanders. I thought he had a smart team assembling his public statements and appearances, but it's obvious he did not. He allowed himself to be set up on stage in a chair right next to Glyndanna Shevlin and used her purposely as an example of how evil the Walt Disney Company's HR department is to CM's. This turned out to be a fraud. And the public rebuttal from Ms. Shevlin, "Why should I change?", is not a good argument.
I'm a non-Bernie supporter who lives in Vermont. He is nothing if not inconsistent. Barely two years ago, he was on stage at a public forum yelling about how nurses don't get paid enough for what they do. I don't completely disagree with him on this count, although I didn't agree with his proposed solution, which is always, make someone else pay.

Flash forward to the present day, and we have a severe shortage of in-patient nurses working in Vermont hospitals. COVID largely underlies the reason, although not always directly. Some nurses simply couldn't handle the physical and emotional stress of working long, overburdened shifts in PPE all day. Some found that the increased costs and unpredictable need for childcare largely consumed most of their salary and it was just made more economic sense for one parent to stay home in their families. And not an insignificant number quit their in-patient jobs for much more lucrative traveling nurse positions. Bernie being Bernie didn't acknowledge that many of these nurses were responding to market forces that much better fit their individual needs, like the higher pay he previously yelled about. No, the villains here are the private nursing agencies "poaching" staff, and the "high cost of childcare". The latter is a legitimate problem, but like everything, he views the situation as some David vs. Goliath struggle ("Big Child Care"?), when more rationally, the situation is thousands of little Davids acting in what they consider their own best interests.
 

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