Disney Analyst
Well-Known Member
I did say that - perhaps the sentence is a bit weirdly stated.
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News Disneyland to give Snow White’s Scary Adventures dark ride a major facelift in 2020
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I did say that - perhaps the sentence is a bit weirdly stated.
Californian Elitist
Well-Known Member
Californian Elitist
Well-Known Member
It doesn’t mean it’s not an example of non consent.
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It is a 1937 cartoon movie for the love of God. A harmless sweet scene. People just enjoy trying to find drama and outrage where there is none.
ParkPeeker
Well-Known Member
It doesn’t have to be outrage, it could be a conversation starter with your kids about consent and autonomy.
el_super
Well-Known Member
If you were a victim of such an example of non-consent, would the outrage be warranted?
Can some people express discomfort in the scene without it being escalated to the point of outrage? Is there a level of discomfort or disagreement with a scene that is acceptable?
Like, how was it acceptable to say that they ruined the ride when we are talking about just making it less scary, but unacceptable to talk about how uncomfortable the new scene can be in certain contexts?
Californian Elitist
Well-Known Member
That doesn’t mean it’s not an example of non consent. It happens to be a 1937 cartoon movie that includes a scene where consent isn’t given.
No one is outraged, nor being dramatic, except maybe those throwing out names and screaming “cancel culture.”
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I didn't call anyone names for the record !
Californian Elitist
Well-Known Member
I know. I wasn’t necessarily referring to you.
Okee68
Well-Known Member
My take:
Seeing as Snow White was obviously presumed dead, the Prince wouldn't have thought he was kissing Snow White the person, rather the lifeless husk of Snow White. There was evidently no living, autonomous being for the nonconsensual kiss to have been an assault on. I'm not saying there aren't any unintentionally creepy undertones in the scene, but within the context of the story, the Prince barely did anything wrong. He kissed what he logically assumed was the corpse of Snow White in a moment of sadness to express his love for her one final time.
In all seriousness, this whole dumb argument wouldn't even exist if Disney had never abandoned the classic dark ride gimmick of riders assuming the role of the protagonist, and had let the Witch remain the star character of the ride. If they were going to tamper with the attraction, they should have revamped it into a maddening, nightmarish flight from the Witch like the 1971 WDW ride - with no reference to Snow White or the Prince whatsoever - and themed the entire loading queue and even the name of the attraction around the Witch. It would have taken a totally unrealistic amount of time, resources, and money to pull off, but it would have been unfathomably based.
Seeing as Snow White was obviously presumed dead, the Prince wouldn't have thought he was kissing Snow White the person, rather the lifeless husk of Snow White. There was evidently no living, autonomous being for the nonconsensual kiss to have been an assault on. I'm not saying there aren't any unintentionally creepy undertones in the scene, but within the context of the story, the Prince barely did anything wrong. He kissed what he logically assumed was the corpse of Snow White in a moment of sadness to express his love for her one final time.
In all seriousness, this whole dumb argument wouldn't even exist if Disney had never abandoned the classic dark ride gimmick of riders assuming the role of the protagonist, and had let the Witch remain the star character of the ride. If they were going to tamper with the attraction, they should have revamped it into a maddening, nightmarish flight from the Witch like the 1971 WDW ride - with no reference to Snow White or the Prince whatsoever - and themed the entire loading queue and even the name of the attraction around the Witch. It would have taken a totally unrealistic amount of time, resources, and money to pull off, but it would have been unfathomably based.
el_super
Well-Known Member
Of course it would. Criticism of attractions isn't just limited to their actual content [see: Splash Mountain]. Eventually these ancient stories will be so far removed from public tastes and wants, that it will seem strange to have a ride based on the story of Snow White.
So what can be done? Do you reframe the inclusion of the attraction within the park in a historical sense? As a cautionary tale? As a museum piece? What's the point in celebrating a story when future generations don't know or care for the story any longer?
Californian Elitist
Well-Known Member
The argument existed prior to that article.
Okee68
Well-Known Member
If they're going to have a Snow White ride at all, then something along the lines of the 1971 version would unironically be the way to do it if your assertion about nobody caring about the story anymore is true. The 1971 ride reused the settings and characters from the film in a new, creative way. You couldn't have been further from "riding through the story" in Florida's pre-1994 Snow White, as opposed to Enchanted Wish in which that's precisely the goal. If Snow White is bland and pastiche to modern audiences, then why not go all out and do something fun and "edgy" with it? Preserve the aesthetic and iconography of Snow White but in a totally new context.
CaptinEO
Well-Known Member
You don't ask someone if you can kiss them, if the moment is right you just have to try.
When I did kiss the girl who I'm now married too she asked why it took me so long.
If you ask someone for every little thing you are shy, nervous, and lack any self confidence. None of which people are into. There's a difference between kissing someone who doesn't want you to kiss them, and initiating a new step in a relationship.
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DavidDL
Well-Known Member
I haven't seen Snow White in a very, very long time. Someone help me out if I'm not remembering things right.. didn't Snow White meet and fall in love with the Prince before her "death"? Isn't her supposed "Enchanted Wish" for the one she loves? She sings for the one she loves to find her, then meets the Prince and falls in love with him? Obviously, in real life, people don't just fall through all the complexities of "love" upon first meeting but for the sake of the context of the film, it being a fairy tale, it being the first feature length animation, etc., aren't we supposed to simply accept the broad brushstrokes of the story?
I haven't read through this whole thread but I'm not advocating for mis-treatment of women in media with my words here. I'm just genuinely wondering because I haven't seen it in so long. Could one put aside the "lifeless husk" argument and take another route by arguing that for the sake of the animated film's story, Snow White and the Prince are supposed to be inferred as a couple after their first meet (-and thus, all things that come with it)?
It might be worth a discussion? The animators might have thought they had conveyed the message of "these two are in love" or "these two are now a thing" well enough with the wishing well scene they created? It was the first animated feature film, it won't explore everything perfectly.
Because in media, certain things are meant to be inferred without the audience questioning them. We never see Han, Luke or Leia use the restroom but we just infer they do and that restrooms exist because we don't need to see it happen and we apply some logic from our world, to theirs. In Snow White (again, I can't for the life of me remember), maybe she never "explicitly states" something along the lines of "we are now boyfriend and girlfriend" or "you can kiss me now" but maybe we are, again, meant to infer these two are a consensual couple after their meeting and falling in love?
Haven't seen it in years. I'm sorry if I'm way off base or got something wrong. I'm not saying explicit permission was or wasn't given for the kiss. But maybe if one were to take the context as a whole (Snow White wishing for the one she loves, her falling in love with the person she meets, her possible death, the art form, etc.), maybe that's why we're at where we're at?
Edit: My own personal experience with first kisses being initiated (going with my Wife here) is that you spend the time with someone, first and foremost. You make yourselves comfortable around each other. Then, when the time is right, you go for it. Obviously, not forcefully. But someone has to initiate when you both feel comfortable enough taking that chance. In Snow White's case, she and the Prince meet, spend time (not much, it's the first animated feature film/a fairy tale) and she falls in love. Unfortunately, she "dies" before their relationship can go any further. The Prince then kisses her "goodbye" at the end. Since she can only be awoken by true-love's kiss, one could infer this confirms she was, in fact, in love with him. I don't want to stir the pot too much but if she was in fact, in love with him to begin with, I find it hard to argue she would have objected to their kiss?
I haven't read through this whole thread but I'm not advocating for mis-treatment of women in media with my words here. I'm just genuinely wondering because I haven't seen it in so long. Could one put aside the "lifeless husk" argument and take another route by arguing that for the sake of the animated film's story, Snow White and the Prince are supposed to be inferred as a couple after their first meet (-and thus, all things that come with it)?
It might be worth a discussion? The animators might have thought they had conveyed the message of "these two are in love" or "these two are now a thing" well enough with the wishing well scene they created? It was the first animated feature film, it won't explore everything perfectly.
Because in media, certain things are meant to be inferred without the audience questioning them. We never see Han, Luke or Leia use the restroom but we just infer they do and that restrooms exist because we don't need to see it happen and we apply some logic from our world, to theirs. In Snow White (again, I can't for the life of me remember), maybe she never "explicitly states" something along the lines of "we are now boyfriend and girlfriend" or "you can kiss me now" but maybe we are, again, meant to infer these two are a consensual couple after their meeting and falling in love?
Haven't seen it in years. I'm sorry if I'm way off base or got something wrong. I'm not saying explicit permission was or wasn't given for the kiss. But maybe if one were to take the context as a whole (Snow White wishing for the one she loves, her falling in love with the person she meets, her possible death, the art form, etc.), maybe that's why we're at where we're at?
Edit: My own personal experience with first kisses being initiated (going with my Wife here) is that you spend the time with someone, first and foremost. You make yourselves comfortable around each other. Then, when the time is right, you go for it. Obviously, not forcefully. But someone has to initiate when you both feel comfortable enough taking that chance. In Snow White's case, she and the Prince meet, spend time (not much, it's the first animated feature film/a fairy tale) and she falls in love. Unfortunately, she "dies" before their relationship can go any further. The Prince then kisses her "goodbye" at the end. Since she can only be awoken by true-love's kiss, one could infer this confirms she was, in fact, in love with him. I don't want to stir the pot too much but if she was in fact, in love with him to begin with, I find it hard to argue she would have objected to their kiss?
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mickEblu
Well-Known Member
5$ this dude has very little to no dating experience and the post you responded to makes it crystal clear. It’s Iike when my wife’s friend who had never been in a relationship tried giving my wife relationship advice when we were dating years ago. Sweet girl, a mutual friend and she meant well but No.
BuzzedPotatoHead89
Well-Known Member
Alright joking aside:
If my fiancé ended up in a coma I’d gladly hope to stay by her bedside and would certainly kiss her on the forehead or lips (in a purely non-suspecting way, since ya know she’s in a coma).
I actually think that’s a lesson we should hope future generations do learn. That if you’re committed to someone you don’t cut and run. And it’s a way to take a “glass half full” from the story. And if we’re teaching the “next generation” it’s a great learning experience in how to take a positive lesson from an age old fable without always assuming negative intent (just because something is old does not mean it has to = negative/bad).
There are are arguably many problems with Disney stories and fairy tales by which they were borrowed, beyond Snow White. But the great thing about living in a free society is that we as the audience choose how we perceive them and how we pass them down to the next generation. There are always options to reframe them.
mickEblu
Well-Known Member
Stop trying to find something positive. That’s not how things work now.
Californian Elitist
Well-Known Member
I agree.
To be clear, I find nothing necessarily wrong with Snow White's ending, sleep kiss included. These stories absolutely open up discussion where folks don't have to sway one way or the other way. There's room for discussion and debate.