Liberty Square Market Seating Area Demolished

[Fox&Hound]

This has always been a difficult area. I don't recall an era where it really worked, for whatever function it fullfilled.

The central square (of Liberty 'Square') is too wide and unusable because they decided to run the parade route through it. The resting area is on the side, straddling along the side of the HoP showbuilding, a bit of a lost space used as a lawn, or queue overflow, or seating area. Neither one ever truly looking great.

Let's see if they get it right this time. Or at least find a workable balance between attractiveness, theme and practicality.

I completely agree. I have always felt like it was a weird pinch point where you feel like you are interrupting something by walking through....

 

[tissandtully]

2.5 million annually. So that’s close to a quarter of what Hollywood Studios got last year. But way less than a quarter of MK that’s for sure.

With way better theming.. I love Dollywood.. fight me. lol

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

With way better theming.. I love Dollywood.. fight me. lol

I’m not gonna say better.... but anyone who compares firechaser Express with slinky dog dash and looks at the price tags for both should know that WDI has got some explaining to do!

 

[tissandtully]

I’m not gonna say better.... but anyone who compares firechaser Express with slinky dog dash and looks at the price tags for both should know that WDI has got some explaining to do!

I was maybe being a bit hyperbolic, haha, but yes FCE is pretty awesome, how many rollercoasters have pyro?

 

[Kevin_W]

I was maybe being a bit hyperbolic, haha, but yes FCE is pretty awesome, how many rollercoasters have pyro?

The stunt coaster at King's Island also has pyro.

We went to Dollywood this year for the first time. Better themeing than King's Island, but not Disney quality. I did not really enjoy Firechaser and the haunted mansion-ish ride (Blazing fury?) was a joke. But they did have some good coasters and nice topography. The RMC coaster, in particular, was really fun.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

(Blazing fury?)

Blazing Fury is a really cool dark ride with a coaster finale. It just hasn’t gotten proper attention although they at least put in LED lighting which helps parts of the ride and hurts others due to poor design.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I was maybe being a bit hyperbolic, haha, but yes FCE is pretty awesome, how many rollercoasters have pyro?

Mystery Mine, also at Dollywood, has pyro as well.

 

[Beacon Joe]

I’m not gonna say better.... but anyone who compares firechaser Express with slinky dog dash and looks at the price tags for both should know that WDI has got some explaining to do!

What were the costs of both rides?

Before riding Firechaser Express, I really wished Dollywood hadn't removed the high ropes course. A few seconds into the ride, my impression was, "this is an excellent family coaster. Why couldn't Disney have built something along these lines instead of Slinky Dog or Mine Train?" I had a similar thought after riding Dragon Filer. Both of those are perfect family coasters.

While WDW keeps junking up and destroying the parks, my enjoyment of Dollywood keep climbing.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I couldn’t find the cost of the fire chaser.... but...

Wildwood Grove which included a counter service restaurant, water play area, indoor kids play area, the dragonflier family coaster, stand-alone restroom building, the wildwood tree with light up butterflies, and 4 flat rides cost 37 million.

Toy Story Land was around $250 million and that includes a family coaster, a counter service restaurant, a restroom building, and 2 flat rides under 1 roof. And changing the toy story mania q.

Toy story midway mania was already built for at least $100 million. So yeah.... that thing is a $350 million dollar land.

So Toy Story Land cost 10 times what Wildwood Grove cost.

 

[Absimilliard]

I couldn’t find the cost of the fire chaser.... but...

Wildwood Grove which included a counter service restaurant, water play area, indoor kids play area, the dragonflier family coaster, stand-alone restroom building, the wildwood tree with light up butterflies, and 4 flat rides cost 37 million.

Toy Story Land was around $250 million and that includes a family coaster, a counter service restaurant, a restroom building, and 2 flat rides under 1 roof. And changing the toy story mania q.

Toy story midway mania was already built for at least $100 million. So yeah.... that thing is a $350 million dollar land.

So Toy Story Land cost 10 times what Wildwood Grove cost.

Firechaser Express cost like 14 million dollars. Its a Gerstlauer family coaster though, so lower capacity and not "tough enough" for Disney wear and tear, so you'd need to get Vekoma, Mack or Intamin to get it, which would push the costs up.

Roller coasters that use fire:

- The indoor spinning coaster that travels Germany has a fire effect with its most recent name, Hollenblitz.

- Lethal Weapon Pursuit at Warner Bros Movie World in Germany used the Indiana Jones DLP coaster ride system for a dueling/racing coaster that ended with a racing car flipping above the tracks in a fireball. Alas, only one video subsists of that effect than ran from 1996 to 1999

- The powered coaster and flume share a mine show building at Europa Park with a small fire effect.

- Raging Spirits use 2 fire spots in addition to the iconic flaming stairs up front.

- Space Mountain at DLP didn't open with actual fire, but it had two sparklers at the Spark Trench, after B lift and right before the Tongue Loop. It was visible from the waiting line, but the sparklers selected didn't last more than a few months after opening.

There are others beside the obvious two Revenge of the Mummy, but those are the main ones.



The fire effect is seen at 1:09 and 2:32 above the track.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Firechaser Express cost like 14 million dollars. Its a Gerstlauer family coaster though, so lower capacity and not "tough enough" for Disney wear and tear, so you'd need to get Vekoma, Mack or Intamin to get it, which would push the costs up.

Firechaser does 750 an hour.... what’s the capacity for ole slinky?

Obviously the slinky dog was a custom ride vehicle too.... I’m not saying it shouldn’t be more, but 4 times the price seems like a lot when directly comparing them.

 

[jt04]

Firechaser does 750 an hour.... what’s the capacity for ole slinky?

Obviously the slinky dog was a custom ride vehicle too.... I’m not saying it shouldn’t be more, but 4 times the price seems like a lot when directly comparing them.

You could probably fit 10 wildwood trees in the slinky maintenance building. The scale of the lands is on entirely different levels. Not being disrespectful to dollywood but it really is apples and oranges.

Dollywood has the better train though. That's saying something.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Toy Story Land is 11 acres, vs. 6 acres for Wildwood Grove. Sure it’s a different scale..... but you look around at both and tell me why 1 costs 10 times the price of the other.

I’m not saying wildwood Grove is a masterpiece of theme park design, but at least they included water features and shade!

 

[jt04]

Toy Story Land is 11 acres, vs. 6 acres for Wildwood Grove. Sure it’s a different scale..... but you look around at both and tell me why 1 costs 10 times the price of the other.

I’m not saying wildwood Grove is a masterpiece of theme park design, but at least they included water features and shade!

It isn't just the square footage. You have to consider the scale of everything. The faux fences of TSL alone had to cost 10 times what the wg tree cost. There is a huge difference in the raw materials and labor involved in just that.

Dollywood does a great job with budgets it seems but the budgets of these projects aren't comparable.

The WG tree is their version of the Tree of Life from DAK. You can make a slight argument about the size of the footprint being similar but the scale of each is not comparable. IMO. Still a great show though.

 

[Absimilliard]

Firechaser does 750 an hour.... what’s the capacity for ole slinky?

Obviously the slinky dog was a custom ride vehicle too.... I’m not saying it shouldn’t be more, but 4 times the price seems like a lot when directly comparing them.

Slinky is 1100-1200. Seven Dwarves Mine Train is similar and TRON will be as well. That's the target WDI is aiming for it seems and its actually tough for modern coasters to reach that. Take for example the Mack Megacoaster, like Blue Fire at Europa Park. Blue Fire runs four trains efficiently.. but the same ride at an american Disney park would struggle to get 1000 guests an hour. The reason for that is the lap bars have to be quite tight on Blue Fire and other modern coasters; given the average size of the WDW guests, each train would require hard stapling of riders and shuffling guests around to the back row, which is designated by Mack as the "modified seating" for larger guests on Blue Fire and ICON at Blackpool Pleasure Beach. This would destroy capacity. How about a Bolliger & Mabillard hyper coaster like Mako then? Same issue with larger guests struggling to fit, once again killing efficiency.

One aspect that people forget about Disney rides is how tough the rides have to be. Since a few particular installations had wear and tear issues, such as Temple du Peril requiring track replacement in 1999 6 years after opening along with issues in the loop and Space Mountain at Disneyland Paris destroying its original trains in 5 years, WDI has the strictest load requirements in the industry. Everest is a great example of that as it still runs great, even if never got a refurb since 2006 and it runs five trains now, versus 4 when it opened. Having thicker steel for the track, better foundations, bigger supports, tougher brakes and drive units, etc. leads to custom equipment that cost a fortune and longer time for manufacturers to make it.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Interesting info. Too bad the slinky dog tails weren’t held to the same standards? Ohhh! Ha.

I’m guessing tron is going to have the issues with load times. Does tron have a single load / unload platform? Or separate?

 

[Absimilliard]

Interesting info. Too bad the slinky dog tails weren’t held to the same standards? Ohhh! Ha.

I’m guessing tron is going to have the issues with load times. Does tron have a single load / unload platform? Or separate?

TRON use double loading stations/unload stations. Track splits up like Big Thunder Mountain, but there are separate load and unload positions. TRON is not that restrictive... the main issue will be some WDW guests who don't want to bend down or get their legs restrained, like what is happening at Flight of Passage.

 

[seascape]

There is also the cost WDI had to pay to use the Toy story IP. Remember the most expensive part of the new Sorin film was flying over WDW and DL. Why? It added costs to the ride but earned the parks money. It is just Hollywood accounting. What did the land actually cost? Who has that infotmation? Jim Hill on his last Universal show said the reason they did get the DC rights was because they wouldn't put up 40 million upfront, in otherwords it would have cost 40 million more in construction costs even though it would not be construction expenses. Disney does not give away it's IP, even to its own subsidiaries.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Seascape..... do you think..... one of the reasons Iger wants to use so much IP is so the parks that make money are padding the studios? I hadn’t thought about that angle before.

 

[MagicHappens1971]

There is also the cost WDI had to pay to use the Toy story IP. Remember the most expensive part of the new Sorin film was flying over WDW and DL. Why? It added costs to the ride but earned the parks money. It is just Hollywood accounting. What did the land actually cost? Who has that infotmation? Jim Hill on his last Universal show said the reason they did get the DC rights was because they wouldn't put up 40 million upfront, in otherwords it would have cost 40 million more in construction costs even though it would not be construction expenses. Disney does not give away it's IP, even to its own subsidiaries.

This sounds bizarre, why would WDI pay Pixar for the rights to Toy Story?