Big changes coming to FASTPASS in March

[Tiggerish]

What is really needed is a "choose your time" system like I and several others have mentioned. The most popular return windows would sell out first, so if the one you want is sold out, you have to pick the next best time for you.

Isn't this what the x-pass that's supposedly coming down the line would be? So this will be offered, difference being that it'll cost you $$ instead of being free.

 

[draybook]

Just ask any CM who works/has worked a FP attraction and they will confirm that this does happen, especially later in the day.

Would these be the same CM's that are allowing it and are trained to allow it? Thank you for at least confirming that Disney is responsible for this mess, not the people that use the system.

Because it's easy to reasonably deduce.

Disney didn't allow early returns - hence all people in the line must be current return window FP holders, or expired FP holders (or comp'd FP holders.. but that scenario is less common)

With lots of experience of what the FP line normally looks like for a specific attraction - one has a decent expectation of what the FP looks like average

So if you get in the FP line, and it's abnormally large, by a significant margin, there are only two possibilities.
1) The FP line hasn't been moving, so the the number of returners (both legit and expired) is growing faster then it's being relieved. Since Disney makes it a point to let FPs in at such a higher ratio, the only way this can backup significantly is if the ride isn't operating fully. This can be determined by speaking with other guests, the CMs, etc. When a ride stops - word travels fast
2) An excess of late returners is in the line, spiking demand

Since rides stopping is pretty well propogated through the line and to CMs.. its pretty easy to identify when that is part of the problem.

So, you don't need to survey people about their FP window to get a good feeling of abnormal FP return load if you've been on the attraction regularly.

Well, facts are facts. Just because you interpret the line differently doesn't make you correct. Since people here like to akin the FP situation to legal matters, then allow me to state that your "sense" of what a normal FP line looks like wouldn't hold up in a court of law without factual data.

 

[rsoxguy]

TOTALLY NEW, BUT I'LL ADJUST!!!!!! I like being able to grab a fastpass, and then be able to return anytime later in the day. It makes it easy with kids. Otherwise, you're criss-crossing all over the parks with their little legs. But now that it's a different system, I'll find a way to make it a pleasant adventure for the kids, and we'll use the system as effectively as possible. I hope that no one abuses the CM's over such a trivial issue.

TOTALLY DIFFERENT

♪ ♫ And I think to myself, what a wonderful world... ♫ ♪

 

[GLaDOS]

Glad to see we already have one person anticipating abusing a CM that had no hand in making this change.

People are unbelievable.

 

[fosse76]

We did all that BECAUSE Disney allowed late returns with the FP's. Simple as that. And NEVER in our experience going to Disney have we had a meal take long than an hour, maybe an hour fifteen, except for that one time. And I have common sense, thank you very much.

You got a FP that had a return window that started while you would still be at a restaurant, most likely in the middle of the meal. If I recall, it was LeCellier. The closest FP attraction is, I believe, Test Track, which is at least a 10-15 minute walk from there. As a seasoned guest, you knew that there would be a possibility you'd miss the return window. Since Disney accepts late FPs, it's wasn't a big deal. But now they will enforce that return window, and you know enough to avoid that kind of situation in the future.

And you are very incorrect about Disney checking in other folks who are on time for their ADR before people who are late. Example: I was behind a woman at Crystal Palace who had 8:00am reservations. Checked in at 8:15am. We checked in at 8:15 for our 8:20 reservations. 10 minutes passed and she was still seated before us.

It's possible I misspoke. But you are incorrect with your assessment. ADRs are essentially the order in which people are seated. The restaurants are not holding open tables for guests. So even though the woman arrived late, she did not cause people to NOT be seated. Once she checked-in, a table that matched her party size opened up. Her ADR was before yours, so she was seated. You weren't seated any later because she was late. If anything, you might have been seated sooner, but as it is you were seated had she been on time. There are so many variables with dining, that enforcing ADRs wouldn't change much of anything.

I feel like if they're going to crack down on FP and not allow late returns (past the grace period) then they should crack down on dining. You're not there when you're supposed to be to check in, there goes your ADR, no questions asked. People showing up late are the reasons for the long waits for ADR's... But I digress....

Long waits have nothing to do with people showing up late. Because of the many variables (party size, special requests, diners taking longer to eat, etc.), late arrivals can't simply be the scapegoat.

I'm all for Disney making sure you arrive between the times printed on your FP. I never said I wasn't. All I was pointing out was Disney allowed us to use our FP later than the posted time. It's not MY fault as you pointed out a few too many times. It's Disney's choice to let me use it late, not my own.

Yes, it is your fault if you miss the return window. Disney didn't tell you to get a FP with a return time you can't make because you'd be in the middle of dinner at a restaurant on the other side of the park. Yes, Disney allowed the use of FPs anytime after they "expired", but now they won't.

 

[flynnibus]

What do you mean by that?

Being objective means you weigh the material without a predisposed position. Instead of fighting 'that doesn't apply' you weigh the scenario in its own, and then compare them. The scenarios are perfectly legit and they line up exactly.

In both cases CMs allow the behavior, and if asked, will generally tell the guest what is enforced. Disney gives guests latitude. That is the core concept people are putting their head in sand about.

My personal experience of what factually happened isn't objective enough? Somehow, my word that I was encouraged by CM's (who presented it as an awesome little tip that'll make your vacation so much more enjoyable) isn't valid?

That isn't even in contention - so I don't know why you are bringing that up. No one is saying CMs haven't acknowledged that Disney does not enforce the return time.

And I haven't seen any references that point to the contrary. Post me a video of a Disney official saying it's not okay to use FP late.

The ticket itself
Disney's literature on it
Disney's website
The various threads posted through the years when people have been turned away for late FPs
The various threads from CMs posting about pending enforcement changes over the years that up till now have never made it to execution

I don't need a video to believe credible sources. Why don't you find a lot more videos of CMs actively encouraging guests if you feel a video is so powerful?

And yes, it is "a hard concept to digest" because it's about semantics and opinion over definitive fact

Yet you've been shown plenty of examples where enforcement does not equal rules. You just fail to accept them and so it gets back to you believe Disney isn't giving anyone latitude, but instead have redefined the rules. But for some reason, even though they've rewritten the rules almost a decade ago, through numerous iterations of FP ticket media, literature, and signage they have yet to drop the idea of a 'return window' or text telling people to return during that window'

If returning late were now the actual RULE and not just a matter of enforcement - why would Disney through REPEATED opportunities to change, still bother confusing guests with text, literature, signage that states a return window?

Why bother listing a return time at all?

In other words, even if I start arriving 5 minutes early, I'll still be breaking the rules. I don't accept that, and I don't think it's right.

You've taken far too much personal sting from the words used impacting your objectivity. You've become defensive rather than objective.

In your example, I wouldn't say you are 'breaking the rules', I'd say your FP isn't valid yet, because the FP rules state... blah blah blah. Using a FP late is against the FP rules, but policy dictates it's allowed behavior. So while technically against the rules, people are not treated as violators because it's accepted behavior.

If you drive over the speed limit, you are still breaking the law. But because it's seen as socially acceptable to drive a small margin over the speed limit, and because you won't be procecuted for it - no one calls you a criminal or paints you as a law breaker.

Same applies here. Just because you get called out for breaking the rules (like sneaking candy into a theater) doesn't mean people are painting you as someone like a outlaw or vagrant.

Some people just need to take a few deep breaths and step back for some perspective of the discussion.

 

[BrittanyRose428]

Stupid less relevant question--- What made people think it was okay to use their fastpasses later in the first place?

Not trying to start a fight or anything, just curious. I never knew I could do it until a few months ago on here, as someone visiting the park I just never thought to do it. I could see if you accidentally miss your time, thats different, but for the people that have saved them for the end of the night, how did they know this would be okay? Without having been on these boards, I wouldn't try that because I'd be worried that they wouldn't take them after the time.

Just wondering, maybe I'm just out of it :wave:

 

[CRO-Magnum]

I agree with others that Disney will have to...

Ugh, yuck. There are just too many variables to always ensure you get back EXACTLY on time!

...tweak their approach and likely provide more than 15min. Their claim to fame is increasing the number of attractions guests enjoy by 25%; I wonder how that number changes with strict enforcement of return times. My gut tells me the number will take a hit down to 15-20% because of the time that will now be wasted milling around because there's not enough time to visit another attraction.

During crowded times I'll bet the number goes down further to near 0%. On a busy day if you visited 20 attractions and FP boosted that by 25% to 25 attractions, but now for every FP you lose one additional attraction, you would end up at 18-20 attractions which is at or below where you were before. But I guess at least you wouldn't be stuck in line.

I'm sure it will smooth out issues at attractions like RnR where the Stand-By line can double the estimated wait time because of fast passes. However in the past decade other than chronic issues at RnR I can't think of another FP attraction where we've seen the wait times truly upset by FP's.

It will definitely be interesting to see how it affects our family of six on our next visit in 2013.

 

[Tiggerrules]

How did you realize this? Did you personally inspect the FP's of each individual in front of you? I'm not flaming you, but I'm glad that you're at least sharing something about it. I've asked numerous times in the thread for proof of such things happening, but nobody has stepped forward. Thanks!

Yes, I like talking to people in line anyway. I also thought it odd that it was that backed up, so I just was trying to find out why. While I did see everyone in front the majority I could talk to or see were from earlier in,the day. I generally start looking for the why in things when they are out of the norm.

 

[fosse76]

a) The return time is for say, 10 AM but the ride is still a total walk-on in standby at this time. Using the FP during the return time in this instance is essentially throwing it away, since it won't actually save you any time. Use standby again, take your walk-on, and save that FP for later in the day when the line will likely be significantly longer and you may be in the mood for a reride.

The solution is not get a FP then. This is easily the lamest excuse for using an expired FP.

b) You start the day with Space Mountain (or Everest, Rock and Roller Coaster, etc) and ride multiple times in a row right after rope drop, while the ride is still a walk-on. While standing next to the FP machine first thing in the morning, you get a FP for later just in case you decide to ride again much later in the day, when the lines are much longer. Maybe you will make it back to this attraction and maybe you won't, but if you do finish everything else you want to do in the park to make it back for an encore much later, that FP acts as an "insurance policy" that a potential 90 minute wait will be just 5-15 minutes instead. And the reason you don't go back for your "1 hour window" is because you already just rode the same ride 2 or 3 times less than an hour ago, and at this point you are in another part of the park, eager to do OTHER things.

Not much different than above. Again, it's selfishness at its finest. Another lame excuse for using an "expired" FP.

c) You are visiting with family (or in my case, they are visiting me). They aren't "early birds", but if one person in the group (ie, me) is, you can go to the park at rope drop and have them meet up with you later. Using YOUR ticket, you can get a FP for 1 or more people in the group who isn't there, one at a time, until you have one for each person in the party. Because you only used your ticket to get the passes for said attraction, they will all be for different times, but since they've always allowed the passes to be used anytime between the first time and park closing, the entire group can ride together, when the others in your party/family/friends finally make it to the park and the time for the last FP ticket opens up.

Another lame excuse. If people want a FP, they should get it themselves when they are in the park.

d) You are at Hollywood Studios. This, more than any other WDW park, is a show park, and seeing all the shows you want to see in one day already means doing a lot of backtracking to make sure you can line them all up and get them all in. Beauty and the Beast, Playhouse Disney, Little Mermaid, Indy, Lights Motors Action, the 3'o clock parade, American Idol, Jedi Training Academy, etc, are all things that take place at set times. Once you figure out a strategy to make sure you get all the shows you want to see done that day, you may often find yourself with times of 15 or 20 minutes to kill between shows, which isn't really enough time to guarantee doing any of the attractions at that park, even with a FP. But since Disney allows "late" arrivals, if your 1 hour window occurs during a period where you are getting all the shows done, you may indeed find it beneficial to save that FP for much later in the day, when it won't conflict with any of the showtimes you want to see.

This is the only one where I agree that it may be difficult to plan even with FPs. But again, before you get a FP, the return window is clearly displayed, so if it conflicts with anything, don't get it. This isn't rocket science.

These are just a few obvious examples I can think of off the top of my head, all based on personal experience. I could list more, but you get the idea

The thing is that none of these examples are legitimate reasons for using a FP after the return window. They are almost all selfish excuses. Yes, we all like to go on our favorite rides multiple times, and FPs can aide that. But it's not an entitlement.

 

[flynnibus]

Well, facts are facts. Just because you interpret the line differently doesn't make you correct. Since people here like to akin the FP situation to legal matters, then allow me to state that your "sense" of what a normal FP line looks like wouldn't hold up in a court of law without factual data.

Facts are just conclusions that are trusted to be true by most.

Sorry to disappoint you. but not everything in the universe can be directly measured, and in those cases we start off with hypothesis, we test things, and when we have enough credible information supporting that hypothesis, we have a theory. And when that theory stands up to enough scrutiny and validation - we accept it as 'fact' that's what is true.

So just because someone didn't measure one by one - does not negate the hypothesis. Theories are disproven by showing them as wrong, not saying 'But that's not a fact'.

Using your standards, we'd still be in the dark ages.

Evidence can be conclusive - without actually directly measuring something.

So would you like to try again - or are just going to sit with 'facts are facts'? Because you don't have any 'facts' to show how the scenario outlined is invalid or even suggestions in how it is inaccurate. You just your disbelief.

You would have done well in the world is flat debate.

 

[flynnibus]

Stupid less relevant question--- What made people think it was okay to use their fastpasses later in the first place?

Because people who were late would try to use their FP and found it to still be accepted. And others would ask CMs if they could still use their FP and would be accepted into the queue. And later CMs would confirm the practice as standard policy.

Some find out by trying.. some found out by asking. In the end, the information is shared.. so eventually lots of people know by simply reading about others and doing the same.

 

[CRO-Magnum]

Cast members at an attraction told us after...

Stupid less relevant question--- What made people think it was okay to use their fastpasses later in the first place?

...seeing us juggling a 8yo, 6yo, 4yo and baby. I remember because we looked like a poorly trained circus act trying to get kids out of strollers and bags and packages into strollers while keeping our 8yo and 6yo from running off. I'll bet cast members at attractions are the #1 source of the info and tell people who make a comment that they missed their time.

Another common way to find out is when a ride goes down. They tell you to come back later with your FP and often at the same time say they honor FP's any time after the start time.

 

[draybook]

Facts are just conclusions that are trusted to be true by most.

Sorry to disappoint you. but not everything in the universe can be directly measured, and in those cases we start off with hypothesis, we test things, and when we have enough credible information supporting that hypothesis, we have a theory. And when that theory stands up to enough scrutiny and validation - we accept it as 'fact' that's what is true.

So just because someone didn't measure one by one - does not negate the hypothesis. Theories are disproven by showing them as wrong, not saying 'But that's not a fact'.

Using your standards, we'd still be in the dark ages.

Evidence can be conclusive - without actually directly measuring something.

So would you like to try again - or are just going to sit with 'facts are facts'? Because you don't have any 'facts' to show how the scenario outlined is invalid or even suggestions in how it is inaccurate. You just your disbelief.

You would have done well in the world is flat debate.

I'm sorry, judging by your response I seem to have hurt your feelings. Would a Dole whip make up for it? By the way, the Earth being round isn't a "conclusion that is trusted by most to be true". It's a proven fact, backed up by actual data. :king:






I have one question for everyone. If there are so many people here who claim to have never known about the window "scam", and you're users on a Disney info-site, and many here would say that most travelers to WDW don't know how to properly use the FP system, then how can such a small base of people affect the FP lines as many here claim they do?

 

[38053WDW]

You must be a real role model for your children... Boy do I feel bad for them later in life if they have the same pathetic mentality you do.... Nice example you'll set for your children...

Need a "Like" button here

 

[DonaldDoleWhip]

You've taken far too much personal sting from the words used impacting your objectivity. You've become defensive rather than objective.

In your example, I wouldn't say you are 'breaking the rules', I'd say your FP isn't valid yet, because the FP rules state... blah blah blah. Using a FP late is against the FP rules, but policy dictates it's allowed behavior. So while technically against the rules, people are not treated as violators because it's accepted behavior.

If you drive over the speed limit, you are still breaking the law. But because it's seen as socially acceptable to drive a small margin over the speed limit, and because you won't be procecuted for it - no one calls you a criminal or paints you as a law breaker.

Same applies here. Just because you get called out for breaking the rules (like sneaking candy into a theater) doesn't mean people are painting you as someone like a outlaw or vagrant.

Some people just need to take a few deep breaths and step back for some perspective of the discussion.

What discussion? I accept that the policy is changing. I even tried to move the discussion forward several pages back by making a hypothesis about NextGen/X-pass/whatever. People just keep shrieking about rule-breaking and law-breaking and so on, and it's extremely annoying.

And fine. I'll admit it. I've used fastpasses late (ever since it was presented to me as a handy tip several years ago). I've even brought a water bottle into a movie theater. I'm a true delinquent. I still think the comparisons to murder and beating people are over the top, and I hope you'll agree with me on that.

But what does that mean if someone has reused a refillable mug, taken flash pictures on a ride that prohibits it, smoked in a non-smoking area, actually cut in the standby line, driven through a red light or stop sign, used illegal drugs, shoplifted, or anything else. I've never done those things. I guess we're all destined to become murderers based on the reactions in this thread.

 

[flynnibus]

...tweak their approach and likely provide more than 15min. Their claim to fame is increasing the number of attractions guests enjoy by 25%; I wonder how that number changes with strict enforcement of return times. My gut tells me the number will take a hit down to 15-20% because of the time that will now be wasted milling around because there's not enough time to visit another attraction.

During crowded times I'll bet the number goes down further to near 0%. On a busy day if you visited 20 attractions and FP boosted that by 25% to 25 attractions, but now for every FP you lose one additional attraction, you would end up at 18-20 attractions which is at or below where you were before. But I guess at least you wouldn't be stuck in line.

I believe stats I have heard in the past say average attraction counts for guests are more like 12-15 - not 20+. So boosting 25% would only mean 3+ rides.. which is not unreasonable.

And I think you exaggerate with 'because there's not enough time to visit another attraction'

The default return window is typically an hour or more away. That means your return time is at least 1-2 hours away, usually more. You can't enjoy an attraction or eat or tour within 1-2 hours?

If you thought people rode 20-25 attractions a day.. that would be like 2 attractions an hour for people. Yet now you think they can't get something done in an 1-2 hrs? Your own math defeats your point.

 

[BrittanyRose428]

This thread = soap opera.

 

[mickeyminiemom]

Does anyone else think that whit all this whining and complaining it is going to lead to the elimination of free fast passes? I always saw fastpass as a privilege something extra nothing that I was entitled to have. Maybe having it as perk for deluxe resort guest or an extra you pay for may be a good move. I would pay for it.

 

[fosse76]

Yeah, but if there were a backlog of people ahead of them, which was never worked through... being held up at the FP collection point doesn't actually increase your wait at all. It simply holds you in one spot instead of another.

So being worried about being held at the FP collection point for a long time while only 2 FP people went ahead of you.. is pointless. It doesn't increase your wait. It makes you wait here, instead of waiting in the queue ahead of you. Unless the queue is valuable (which in RnRC it is not) this is much ado about nothing.

That's not quite true though (in my personal example). I was held for no reason, and by the time I had gone through, I actually could have been on on and off the ride. In the scheme of things it wasn't too significant, but I did have to wait longer, simply because the CM decided that she should wait for someone with a FP to come in. There was no reason to hold me. But what if it had been a significant number of FPs coming in? I would have been furious. It was bad enough that I had to wait one ride cycle because the CM nonsensically waited for a guest with a FP, but if I had to wait longer, you can bet that I would have been speaking with a manager. There was no reason to delay me when there was no one else in line (only a handful of peopla at load). I think this is where the real problems with FP lie: too many issued and too inconsistent a ratio to standby admissions, exacerbated by late returns.

Now an example of where it sucks is Indy at DL.. because waiting outside stinks compared to being able to wait in the temple itself.

I do single-rider, where the procedure seems to change depending on what CM is working. The five times I rode it, I only once had to wait for a single seat, the other four times the CMs sent me to the FP line.:shrug: