darrelljon
Active Member
Universal has beaten Disney to the fantasy genre by building the Harry Potter themed areas.
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Why Walt Disney World Needs a 5th Theme Park By 2025
- Thread starter ParentsOf4
- Start date
doctornick
Well-Known Member
This. Po4's point -- which makes sense -- is that their needs to be more capacity (and draws) to accommodate millions of more guests annually to maintain WDW's current revenue/profits. That makes sense. But opening up a 5th gate is only one way to accomplish that -- and increasing capacity in the existing parks is certainly another. If MK can accommodate 17-18M guests a year, there's no reason that parks like Epcot and DAK which have more physical space cannot do the same as long as there is enough stuff there to occupy and draw everyone. DHS has a smaller footprint, but with sensible expansion there, it could certainly entertain far more guests than it currently does (at least it could get to the 12-13M a year type level with its current footprint).
Goofnut1980
Well-Known Member
While a 5th gate would be awesome. I would be happy to have each park complete or a little larger. It would totally spread out people. No one wants to go on a vacation to Disney and because its a 9 out of 10 for being cramped, only get to ride 3-4 attractions. It makes people not want to deal with it. If there is more to do, it eats up people and feels less busy.
Victor Kelly
Well-Known Member
The cannot even keep stuff running right in four parks, and people think a fifth park is a great idea?
As usual, great post @ParentsOf4! I would love to see a fifth park open in 2025 after the three other parks get more attractions. As for the theme, Disney will not dedicate an entire theme park just for villains. The whole "villains" concept thing is cute for Halloween but it's not a good idea for an entire park or even a land, imo. Disney doesn't even have a villain ride yet, so let's start there -- maybe with Darth Vader or something. With that said, most people would prefer a Luke Skywalker ride or perhaps something with the robots.
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1023
Provocateur, Rancanteur, Plaisanter, du Jour
A back to "Disney" basics style park will be needed very soon. Based on the numbers and the avalanche of projected tourists in the future, it would be foolish not to get started on it. As @ParentsOf4 mentioned, this is outside of the continued redevelopment and new development at the existing parks. The attendance barriers at the 4 current parks will be realized leaving a lot of money on the table. Whatever is built has to be equal to the Magic Kingdom in appeal.
Something broad based with a classical and new entertainment properties. There are plenty of themes that can be utilized and cover a kaleidoscope of demographic appeal. "Heroes and Villains" comes most plainly to mind but there are many others. You can steal from the theme of POP Century hotel and do a decades theme. "Myths and Legends" or even "Storybook" type themes would work.
Ultimately without growth, things tend to stagnate. Stagnation when it becomes institutionalized produces linear thinking and we have all seen the results of that at WDW. Growth can also drive a stock higher and create huge value. I am afraid that despite the signs of growth in tourism, there may be no awareness at TDO or TWDC. I hope I am wrong there.
Anyway, excellent presentation as usual @ParentsOf4 . You are right on top of things as usual.
*1023*
(I have a "Heroes and Villains" pretty well fleshed out and ready to go. 35 attractions including 5 E ticket showstoppers. The only things not finished is the themed shops and a couple of the restaurants. The Park Weenie icon would feature/house the premier H vs V attraction. But hey this isn't the imagineering thread.)
Something broad based with a classical and new entertainment properties. There are plenty of themes that can be utilized and cover a kaleidoscope of demographic appeal. "Heroes and Villains" comes most plainly to mind but there are many others. You can steal from the theme of POP Century hotel and do a decades theme. "Myths and Legends" or even "Storybook" type themes would work.
Ultimately without growth, things tend to stagnate. Stagnation when it becomes institutionalized produces linear thinking and we have all seen the results of that at WDW. Growth can also drive a stock higher and create huge value. I am afraid that despite the signs of growth in tourism, there may be no awareness at TDO or TWDC. I hope I am wrong there.
Anyway, excellent presentation as usual @ParentsOf4 . You are right on top of things as usual.
*1023*
(I have a "Heroes and Villains" pretty well fleshed out and ready to go. 35 attractions including 5 E ticket showstoppers. The only things not finished is the themed shops and a couple of the restaurants. The Park Weenie icon would feature/house the premier H vs V attraction. But hey this isn't the imagineering thread.)
englanddg
One Little Spark...
I'd say WDW doesn't need a 5th gate. It needs to maximize it's current gates.
Gates bring with it a host of overarching expenses, ones that can be shared just by expanding more on the current parks they have.
The one thing a new gate with 7-10 rides would bring, as opposed to adding 7-10 rides spread across the 4 other parks (or heck, all to one park) is the fact they could charge another ticket...
No, they need to just expand what they've got, imho.
Gates bring with it a host of overarching expenses, ones that can be shared just by expanding more on the current parks they have.
The one thing a new gate with 7-10 rides would bring, as opposed to adding 7-10 rides spread across the 4 other parks (or heck, all to one park) is the fact they could charge another ticket...
No, they need to just expand what they've got, imho.
1023
Provocateur, Rancanteur, Plaisanter, du Jour
Why would you open a park with 7 to 10 rides? Magic Kingdom opened with 23 attractions. Tokyo Disneyland opened with 25 I think. They most likely learned their lesson with MGM and AK for opening day attraction count since California Adventure opened with 13 attractions.
If you read the posts, no one says stop developing for the existing parks. In fact, they need to keep developing/redeveloping the existing offerings. In order for your family and mine to not be standing shoulder to shoulder in every square meter of the parks in 2025, they need to add another gate to spread out the tourists. The also need to continue fleshing out the existing parks.
*1023*
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
I really have no need to be involved in this discussion because by 2025 I will be 77 years old and will consider myself lucky if I'm still standing at all.
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Magenta Panther
Well-Known Member
I think Parentsof4 made some good points - very good points - but I agree with you. We need more attractions in the lands we have - especially Magic Kingdom. More rides and shows in Fantasyland, especially - a Villains ride, a Frozen Ice Palace, a Mickey Mouse ride (with killer AAs), a majorly plussed Peter Pan's Flight and a Mary Poppins ride- so many possibilities. And Adventureland really needs help. I'd vote for more Pirates stuff and maybe a Sleepy Hollow ride. And of course DHS needs more, although apparently there are indeed plans to add more (mostly off-studio IPs, unfortunately, but oh well). But getting back to Fantasyland - is there room for any major expansion? It looks pretty crowded as it is, but I'm no expert on what's available out there, unlike some people here.
Donald Razorduck
Well-Known Member
I was somewhat bummed with the redevelopment of Downtown Disney. Knowing the relationship with Landry's and their themed restaurants I was thinking they may have added rides like Landry's stand alone Kemah Boardwalk and Galveston Pleasure Pier. Guess there would simply be too many people for the area to handle.
I've thought Star Wars could be an amazing stand alone park but just a section of an existing park is a bit of a let down.I think the same with Marvel but that would have to be west of the Mississippi. How bout Part of a new resort between Houston and San Antonio. Lots of airport options including internation. Texas is booming population wise and would have a healthy draw just from Texans.
I hate the bleed over from movies into Epcot. It really devalues the purpose and I think plenty of attraction possibilities exist without character branding attached. I'd like to see WDW stay true to the Classics and Studio used for Pixar and newer franchises like Frozen.
I wonder what Disney has planned for Indy. Always thought Indy would go well in AK with multiple attractions based of the exotic locations in the movies. More Animals? As much as Disney uses China for goods and new parks, why not Pandas?
So I read Universal is building another moderate resort, pulling permits for what appears to be a new waterpark. If that's true, makes you wonder if Wet and Wild is the 3rd gate location and they seem to be steamrolling along over there.
I hope Seaworld pulls off their expansion plans with the larger habitats.
I haven't been to WDW since the late 80s when I was 15. I'm 41 and we are taking our kids of 12 and 11 for the first time in Feb. While research hang and putting together this trip, we concluded that Orlando would be two trips. Disney this time around witb a side trip to Legoland and Universal and SeaWorld the next with the possibility of a 3 day Disney Cruise as the bookend. I don't see us going for a Disney exclusive trip again. I figure we'lol buy a park hopper ticket and hit new attractions that have come online since the last as long as they appeal to our growing kids. A new park may get two days out of us. We'd like to hit Disneyland up but that's just a 3 day weekend fly out to the coast.
I've thought Star Wars could be an amazing stand alone park but just a section of an existing park is a bit of a let down.I think the same with Marvel but that would have to be west of the Mississippi. How bout Part of a new resort between Houston and San Antonio. Lots of airport options including internation. Texas is booming population wise and would have a healthy draw just from Texans.
I hate the bleed over from movies into Epcot. It really devalues the purpose and I think plenty of attraction possibilities exist without character branding attached. I'd like to see WDW stay true to the Classics and Studio used for Pixar and newer franchises like Frozen.
I wonder what Disney has planned for Indy. Always thought Indy would go well in AK with multiple attractions based of the exotic locations in the movies. More Animals? As much as Disney uses China for goods and new parks, why not Pandas?
So I read Universal is building another moderate resort, pulling permits for what appears to be a new waterpark. If that's true, makes you wonder if Wet and Wild is the 3rd gate location and they seem to be steamrolling along over there.
I hope Seaworld pulls off their expansion plans with the larger habitats.
I haven't been to WDW since the late 80s when I was 15. I'm 41 and we are taking our kids of 12 and 11 for the first time in Feb. While research hang and putting together this trip, we concluded that Orlando would be two trips. Disney this time around witb a side trip to Legoland and Universal and SeaWorld the next with the possibility of a 3 day Disney Cruise as the bookend. I don't see us going for a Disney exclusive trip again. I figure we'lol buy a park hopper ticket and hit new attractions that have come online since the last as long as they appeal to our growing kids. A new park may get two days out of us. We'd like to hit Disneyland up but that's just a 3 day weekend fly out to the coast.
In total agreement. In the 1980s, before Eisner's plans took off, the ONLY thing keeping TWDC afloat were the theme parks, primarily WDW. Sony was seriously considering purchasing TWDC. Touchstone was in part a response to the "family only entertainment" mantra of the Walt days. Remember, for several years, Disney wouldn't admit Touchstone was Disney. And in spite of the success of Frozen and Marvel, it is apparent based on Po4's analysis of Disney's financials, that the majority of the revenues (and thus shareholder profits) are from the Parks.
Personally, I don't want to visit any tourist attraction the size of the Magic Kingdom that has 50,000 - 60,000 visitors EACH DAY. Would you? Imagine the PM costs to maintain a facility with that volume of visitors. With 15-18 hour days.
Disney needs to look long term, not the typical 1-3 years the Wall Street boys (and stockholders) like. Which means serious discussions and planning need to start NOW for a 5th gate. Yes, EPCOT, DHS and DAK need to see their proposed refurbishments finalized and completed. But corporate (and will include the BOD) must start having discussions about utilizing the remaining acres not permanently set aside for environmental conservation - whether it's expanding the boundaries of existing parks or adding a 5th gate (I would do both). And until room occupancy rates justify constructing more rooms, Disney needs to stop. Over Thanksgiving, I ran into many folks at GS asking what the band around my wrist was for. Which told me that more and more people are deciding to stay off property. And are willing to give up Disney transportation (or have figured out a way to use it) and EMH. To have cheaper and nicer rooms when compared to the Values, especially.
Oh, and to the poster who mentioned that Disney is converting regular rooms at Wilderness to DVC, that is not correct. I am a DVC member and WL is my home resort and I would know if that was happening, because some how I would be paying for it. Me and all other members at WL have been paying for the pool refurbishment and the recent upgrades to the Villa rooms.
Thanks Po4 for a great post! Perhaps you should pass your analysis on to Glendale. They have an opening coming up.
Welp, since this is the only 5th Gate thread that is about facts and figures and not wish fulfillment or armchair park-building, I thought I'd resurrect it and update it to be a place to point people to when they have questions about 5th-Gate-ism...
Let's start with our OP's WDW Annual Attendance Per Theme Park chart post elsewhere and let's put it in a sane thread rather than some other overly-'spirited' thread...
Please note that this chart takes total attendance by year and divides it by the number of parks (4 currently) to get an idea of how many people are in each of the parks if they spread themselves around evenly and not all glommed into MK.
Let's start with our OP's WDW Annual Attendance Per Theme Park chart post elsewhere and let's put it in a sane thread rather than some other overly-'spirited' thread...
Please note that this chart takes total attendance by year and divides it by the number of parks (4 currently) to get an idea of how many people are in each of the parks if they spread themselves around evenly and not all glommed into MK.
Still working on the big chart of ride capacity here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...mjnVaWBAu_M1rKe1UYF2pRXyk/edit#gid=1430452926
How long does it take to build stuff? Going by WDW's track record, it'll take at least 4 years to build a new park, one that isn't fully complete. But, we got that now with DHS!
How long does it take to build stuff? Going by WDW's track record, it'll take at least 4 years to build a new park, one that isn't fully complete. But, we got that now with DHS!
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JohnD
Well-Known Member
So where would UO's third gate go? (They'd argue it's a 4th gate but I digress. . .)
Here's @ParentsOf4 's graph of Growth Capex. "Growth Capex" is taking total Capital Expenditure and then subtracting out depreciation so as to get a ball park figure on what was spent on new stuff rather that replace and/or repair...
And here's the break down of Total Capex v. Growth Capex v. Profit (Operating Revenue, which is Revenue minus Expenses)
And here's the break down of Total Capex v. Growth Capex v. Profit (Operating Revenue, which is Revenue minus Expenses)
Here's the visitors broken down by park, showing what we all know: the parks that aren't MK need to up their game in pulling people into their parks instead of MK.
Start here for that discussion: https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads...ts-the-green-light.939736/page-2#post-8165712
Missing20K
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info! Very helpful!