Why Do So Many Hate DVC

[s8film40]

WOW! I never said I hated DVC. The question was asked why do people hate DVC, all I did was try to give the best answer I saw. If any of you really truly believe that DVC and WDW are completely separate companies and have no effect on each other than you truly are blind to reality. Good or bad they completely are interdependent on each other.

And your previous post basically pinned this solely on DVC. I'm not going to go back and forth on this anymore, since I feel that when you dislike something to this level there really isn't a way for me to justify my point without it coming back at me. DVC is really a choice that works for some and not for others. Those with a mindset similar to you, continue to ask for proof that DVC doesn't affect park projects, yet you cannot justify your point in any way either. I think from a business standpoint I have tried to show that DVC sustains it's projects without having to reach into any other segments pockets, but that never really seems like it is enough for someone who is adamently against DVC.

Again I'm not against DVC, and it takes a lot more than DVC to bring the parks down to their current level. I think it may contribute to the peace of mind that allows the executives to run WDW the way they do.

Like when I started this discussion, I said that there are alot of people who just hate DVC. s8film40 shows what I mean. How can someone blame staff shortages anywhere on DVC?

In case you didn't notice DVC requires a great deal of staffing. In park kiosks, DVC sales, call center, front desk, housekeeping, etc. I'm not saying this is such a horrible thing but the reality is when things get tight there not going to have less rooms available due to short staffing, they'll find something to cut somewhere else. Now I also think it's really stupid for Disney not to operate something because of short staffing, that's the point where you raise pay if needed to get the people you need to run your operation. I'm not defending Disney on this point just discussing how Disney operates and the effect it DOES have on the parks.

There's no questioning the value of DVC sales itself. But selling points does nothing to guarantee revenues for the parks. As a DVC owners, I am under no obligation to purchase t-shirts, dine in their restaurants or even enter the parks. In fact, I could choose to use the points for a non-park destination, Disney cruise or even trade out entirely through RCI.



But that doesn't change the fact that DVC members are less than 10% of all guests entering the parks on a given day. In a time where even "flat" park attendance is viewed as an embarrassment, there is absolutely no reason to think that Disney is ignoring 90% percent of their park guests simply because 10% are all but guaranteed to show up.



Just a comment on that...somewhere over that span DVC changed the manner in which they were reporting their figures. No specifics have been given but the thinking is that the 70,000 figure represented the number of Master Contracts in existence. In other words, if my wife and I are both listed on a deed, we would only count as 1 among the 70k.

The 300,000 most likely counts all deeded owners separately. In that number, my wife and I would count as two.

DVC did experience impressive growth over that 4 year span, but the number of members didn't quadruple. They simply altered the manner in which they hyped the size of membership.

Today the number of Master Contracts is around 150,000, so the program did roughly double in size over the last 7-8 years.

If you trade your points, what happens to them? Does not someone else who traded non DVC points end up visiting WDW? I know I have seen many people who were not DVC members saying they used their timeshare points.

 

[Pioneer Hall]

In case you didn't notice DVC requires a great deal of staffing. In park kiosks, DVC sales, call center, front desk, housekeeping, etc. I'm not saying this is such a horrible thing but the reality is when things get tight there not going to have less rooms available due to short staffing, they'll find something to cut somewhere else. Now I also think it's really stupid for Disney not to operate something because of short staffing, that's the point where you raise pay if needed to get the people you need to run your operation. I'm not defending Disney on this point just discussing how Disney operates and the effect it DOES have on the parks.

Once again though, these costs are covered by the members or from construction profits. Salesmen and kiosks are supported through new sales. Remember that one sale at a minimum is about $21,000...that supports a whole lot of people who do the selling on that given day. All costs associated with running the resorts are paid for by the members. Disney does not absorb any of that cost. Before the beginning of each year, members are given their dues assesment. Part of the dues are operating expenses which cover all aspects of running a resort (front desk, housekeeping, transportation, recreation, etc). We also pay the property taxes and put money into a pool for capital expenses that will be needed at a later date (refurbs, repairs, etc). The members send their money to Disney and then they just divide it as needed without any of it coming out of their pocket. We pay for every single cost associated with this program...from the resorts to the people who answer the phone and design the website.

 

[s8film40]

Once again though, these costs are covered by the members or from construction profits. Salesmen and kiosks are supported through new sales. Remember that one sale at a minimum is about $21,000...that supports a whole lot of people who do the selling on that given day. All costs associated with running the resorts are paid for by the members. Disney does not absorb any of that cost. Before the beginning of each year, members are given their dues assesment. Part of the dues are operating expenses which cover all aspects of running a resort (front desk, housekeeping, transportation, recreation, etc). We also pay the property taxes and put money into a pool for capital expenses that will be needed at a later date (refurbs, repairs, etc). The members send their money to Disney and then they just divide it as needed without any of it coming out of their pocket. We pay for every single cost associated with this program...from the resorts to the people who answer the phone and design the website.

Once again, I wasn't just talking about money. I am fully aware that DVC pays for itself. DVC does use resources across the board though. If they need to design a new resort do they hire new imagineers just for that, no they give the project to someone. What would that person have been designing otherwise, who knows but that resource is diverted, and I would imagine due to DVC ability to return investment they get a higher priority than others. As we've talked about the same principle applies to staffing when Disney is short and has to decide to close something, they will not ever choose DVC. When they build a new resort do they buy new land, no they use existing WDW property, did that property have something planned for it before DVC existed in many cases yes the resort development has shifted to match the success of DVC. When yo go to ride the monorail at the Contemporary the line is a little longer than it was before BLT. Again I'm not saying I hate DVC and it certainly has good impacts as well, but DVC is most definitely a very large driving force at WDW.

 

[thedisneyfan]

DVC is essentially pre-selling disney vacations. I think many people accurately assume that this gives Disney the confidence in knowing that future vacations are already paid for regardless of what if any improvements they decide to make to the resort. It affects their incentive to innovate, the past few years have certainly been evidence to that.

Actually, I think that the global economy has been evidence of the "lesser" investments(not non-existent) in the theme parks and not the fact that Disney can rely on us DVC members. But, if you look at Disney and see the BLT, the Magic Kingdom expansion, the Art of Animation Resort, Pleasure Island, etc., Disney is the one out there spending money and improving WDW while most businesses aren't investing in any expansions or any improvements. Sure I would love to see Disney announce a billion dollar expansion of AK, and a billion dollar expansion for DHS, and an expansion of World Showcase, but they have to be prudent and invest and expand wisely.

 

[worldfanatic]

I couldn't care less if people hate DVC.
Those same haters would feel 100% different if they were given points.

I couldn't be more thrilled with my decision to buy in.
It's completely changed my WDW (and DLR) vacation outlook.
The trips were amazing before.......now they're beyond amazing!!!

I'll never give up DVC.
They'll have to pry my 200 points from my "cold, dead, hands". :ROFLOL:

 

[tjkraz]

If you trade your points, what happens to them? Does not someone else who traded non DVC points end up visiting WDW? I know I have seen many people who were not DVC members saying they used their timeshare points.

Depends upon the circumstances. In some cases a 1-for-1 trade occurs. But far more often, the rooms represented by DVC points end up back with CRO who assumes the burden of renting those rooms to the general public.

Once again, I wasn't just talking about money. I am fully aware that DVC pays for itself. DVC does use resources across the board though. If they need to design a new resort do they hire new imagineers just for that, no they give the project to someone.

Two comments on this:

1. The majority of resort design work is outsourced to architectural firms. So actually they do just "hire" new people (so to speak) when a new project comes along.

2. Imagineering does get involved in things like landscaping and the finer design details at resorts. However, earlier this decade Imagineering was hit by several waves of layoffs. So while you imply that working on DVC projects was some sort of burden for the staff, in reality many Imagineers owe their jobs to the steady stream of work it has provided.

Same goes for the DVC sales staff, telephone operators, bus drivers, housekeepers, bell services clerks, groundskeepers and literally thousands of others who may not be employed by TWDC if not for the existence of those DVC resorts. I agree that the labor market in central Florida is something Disney must concern itself with but fair compensation is an issue for Disney to resolve with its employees and their unions.

Suggesting that DVC is the reason for Space Mountain operating at half capacity on any given day is an enormous stretch. Given that no such labor shortage has handcuffed the parks for an extended period of time, perhaps you should look for more logical reasons for attraction short staffing like park mis-management, poor scheduling or unexpected sick calls.

As we've talked about the same principle applies to staffing when Disney is short and has to decide to close something, they will not ever choose DVC.

A DVC salesperson has neither the skill set nor the training to work as a ride attendant on Tower of Terror.

 

[Computer Magic]

For those that don't think DVC takes away from the parks or Disney resources aren't shared among different DBA (doing business as) Where do you think Joe Rhodes has been?

http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2010/07/aloha-from-aulani/

 

[tjkraz]

For those that don't think DVC takes away from the parks or Disney resources aren't shared among different DBA (doing business as) Where do you think Joe Rhodes has been?

http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2010/07/aloha-from-aulani/

Some resources are certainly shared but budgets are division specific.

DVC expansion shouldn't impact the theme parks any more than the cost of making Tron Legacy would impact operations at ESPN. Different divisions. Different budgets. Different financial goals. Different customers to service.

 

[Phonedave]

For those that don't think DVC takes away from the parks or Disney resources aren't shared among different DBA (doing business as) Where do you think Joe Rhodes has been?

http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2010/07/aloha-from-aulani/

Joe Rhodes does not work for WDW, he works for Disney Imagineering. HE may be part of a WDW project, he may be part of a DVC project, he may be part of a TDL project.

While I do not know the inner workings of Disney (the Corporation) for sure, I would hazard a guess that Joe Rhodes back bills each department or project he does work for.

In my job it is the same way with IT. If I want one of my systems modified, I go to our in house IT department, who will gladly do it, and then bill my department. If they do a systems change for the sales channels, then guess what, sales gets billed. Thats how companies keep their costs straight.

Now yes, we can make the argument that if Joe Rhodes was not invloved with the DVC project, he would have more time to work on the WDW expansion. But we can also make the argument that if the DVC did not have the money to cover Joe's salary for part of the year (by having him work on Hawaii) then maybe Disney could not afford to keep him. Now of course in the case of Joe Rhodes this is silly, they are not going to let him go. But in the case of a 'run-of-the-mill' imagineer, they may very well be able to staff an extra 3 ro 4 heads in WDI because DVC keeps them busy part of the time and pays part of their salary.

-dave

 

[Thrill]

For every new person that signs up for DVC that's one less person they have to worry about whether they will be coming back again..

Not really. What happens when Universal Studios has a great expansion that makes DVC members suddenly decide that they should maybe spend more time down the road at Universal, cutting off days at Disney? What happens when they visit Disneyland and decide that perhaps Disneyland is better maintained, and they will make a trip there instead of WDW every year or every other year? All that DVC guarantees is that the resorts themselves are paid. From there, it's TDO's job to make sure that the parks are good enough to keep the DVC members in WDW instead of DLR or Universal.

 

[Computer Magic]

Some resources are certainly shared but budgets are division specific.

DVC expansion shouldn't impact the theme parks any more than the cost of making Tron Legacy would impact operations at ESPN. Different divisions. Different budgets. Different financial goals. Different customers to service.

It does impact the park because Joe isn't designing a new attraction for AK or another Adventure Club at DTD, but instead heading up a project at DVC. WDW is being impacted. It is more important to Disney for Joe to build a DVC in Hawaii then to add at WDW. It is a business decision. Tron to ESPN is not apples to apples comparasion.

Joe Rhodes does not work for WDW, he works for Disney Imagineering. HE may be part of a WDW project, he may be part of a DVC project, he may be part of a TDL project.

While I do not know the inner workings of Disney (the Corporation) for sure, I would hazard a guess that Joe Rhodes back bills each department or project he does work for.

In my job it is the same way with IT. If I want one of my systems modified, I go to our in house IT department, who will gladly do it, and then bill my department. If they do a systems change for the sales channels, then guess what, sales gets billed. Thats how companies keep their costs straight.

Now yes, we can make the argument that if Joe Rhodes was not invloved with the DVC project, he would have more time to work on the WDW expansion.
-dave

We both work in IT so I know you understand that when you are working on one project, it takes your attention away from others. So now Joe is no longer spending time at WDW. The decision was made that Joe wasn't needed at WDW or it is more important for him to be used for the DVC Hawaii. Joe is not building the next great attraction at WDW. He was taken away for another project.

 

[Phonedave]

We both work in IT so I know you understand that when you are working on one project, it takes your attention away from others. So now Joe is no longer spending time at WDW. The decision was made that Joe wasn't needed at WDW or it is more important for him to be used for the DVC Hawaii. Joe is not building the next great attraction at WDW. He was taken away for another project.

Well, I am not IT, I am Network Engineering, but close enough.

Here is the question. Is there are 'next great attraction' going on at WDW right now? Building an attraction take more than just telling Joe to get to work. Let's say you had the free time at work to code the best system ever, but no department had the budget for the capital investment. So now you have a lovely bunch of code, but no hardware, no Tier 1 support personnel, no network connectivity, and no physical plant to house the servers. It is the same with Joe. He may have the greatest ideas fow WDW. Heck, he may already have them sketched out and in a file. But as long as WDW does not have the capital to impliment them, they remain unbuilt.

DVC happens to have the capital right now to build something. So they are 'keeping Joe busy' until some other deparment (be it WDW, or TDL, or HKDL, or DL, or even DCL) grabs him for a project that they have funding for.

I understand your point, but the existance of DVC is not the only thing that is keeping Joe off of a WDW expansion project.


-dave

 

[tjkraz]

It does impact the park because Joe isn't designing a new attraction for AK or another Adventure Club at DTD, but instead heading up a project at DVC. WDW is being impacted. It is more important to Disney for Joe to build a DVC in Hawaii then to add at WDW. It is a business decision. Tron to ESPN is not apples to apples comparasion.

Do you honestly think that the only reason that WDW development has stagnated is because Imagineers don't have enough TIME to work on new concepts? Do you really believe that the only thing keeping the Adventurer's Club from being re-opened is Joe Rohde's involvement in Aulani?

Ridiculous.

If Parks was willing to spend money on attractions, talent can easily be re-prioritized to fill that need. Walt Disney Imagineering is not a one man shop. Staffing numbers from dozens into the hundreds depending upon need.

As I said before, while you may think that DVC work is somehow stifling growth at the theme parks, in reality the work that DVC brings to the table actually keeps Imagineering from handing out more pink slips.

As for the 'apples-to-apples' comment, DVC to the parks isn't either. The Walt Disney Company doesn't have a fixed budget for all theme park related development. Bob Iger doesn't give Tom Staggs XXX dollars each year to divvy up between new attractions, new restaurants, new hotels and new DVC destinations. Those are all separate departments which have to appeal to their higher-ups to get projects approved. They aren't stealing from each others' budgets.

 

[Computer Magic]

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[Computer Magic]

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[googilycub]

It does impact the park because Joe isn't designing a new attraction for AK or another Adventure Club at DTD, but instead heading up a project at DVC. WDW is being impacted.

Please show me the proof that if the resort on Oahu was not being built, Joe would be desingning an attraction for WDW.....You can't, so your argument does not hold water.

By the way, do you think the new Art of Animation resort takes away from WDW as well?

 

[Alektronic]

Some resources are certainly shared but budgets are division specific.

DVC expansion shouldn't impact the theme parks any more than the cost of making Tron Legacy would impact operations at ESPN. Different divisions. Different budgets. Different financial goals. Different customers to service.

But who decides which division gets a bigger budget? If you have 3 divisions and one divison has a 20% profit margin, another 5% profit margin, and the other is flat or even losing money. Which division would you give the biggest budget to, if you are really concerned about making money?

So they are like any business, it is all about the money and making a profit.

 

[nikole95.7]

DVC is essentially pre-selling disney vacations. I think many people accurately assume that this gives Disney the confidence in knowing that future vacations are already paid for regardless of what if any improvements they decide to make to the resort. It affects their incentive to innovate, the past few years have certainly been evidence to that.

I won't claim to know the reasons behind Disney's lackluster theme park development, but to think that it has anything to do with DVC members just doesn't add up.

 

[Sir Goofy]

While you can't solely blame DVC for it. DVC does encourage that type of mentality within the WDW management. For every new person that signs up for DVC that's one less person they have to worry about whether they will be coming back again.

Also WDW has to dedicate a lot of resources to DVC, just the staffing alone is one example.

I dont think that WDW is banking on my trips for the next 50 years for sustainability... We visit on average 4 times per year, 3 shorter (4 day) trips and 1 longer (week and a half) trip. With each trip, we will spend money on food, merchandise, AP's, etc. I have budgeted $4,000 for our upcoming 1 week trip, and on average will budget 2000-3000 for our shorter trips. WDW needs more than my upfront investment in DVC, and the 10,000 or so I Will spend per year in the parks for long term profit-

DVC is a part of the profit of WDW, however, to say that with each new member WDW can rest because they have my money whether I come or not doesnt really make sense... My initial investment in my membership (I own at BLT, BWV, and SSR) went to pay for those developments, as well as future developments. The money I spend in the parks goes to overall WDW revenue.. (before you say it, I know, they are one operating company, and share profits...)

I just think that WDW is more interested in having my family return, buy AP's, and spend money in the park as opposed to being satisfied with having my initial investment and maintenance dues...

 

[disneyrcks]

Hey everyone! I didnt know if I should start a new thread for this cause it kinda fall under this topic....we are DVC and we were told that we would pay our loan and get 40 years or so...and all we have to pay is maintenance fees.....I think that is soooooo fudging awesome. That is us...we love it...If u don't like it then don't do it! I hate to hear the haters that don't want it....u are entilted to your opinion but don't bad mouth us