The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[stlphil]

That's a bit harsh. Individually all your points make sense, but there's not an effective way to put Star Wars stuff in Innoventions and Eo and connect them to Star Tours without doing a sizeable re-theming of TL. Which still leaves other attractions (Space Mountain, Buzz) in an odd positions of not being consistent with Star Wars.

At least with the Toontown space, one could make a cohesive Star Wars area.

I don't think I'm being harsh at all. Imagineering used to thrive on doing the impossible. And my second point was that TL needs "a sizeable re- theming", and this would be the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone.

I'm not much into armchair imagineering, but to address part of your point I wouldn't have a problem with retheming Space Mountain to SW. Having SM themed to an IP isn't without precedent as that is the case in Paris.

I mentioned this before on in a different thread, but I'll bet one of their major motivations (and issues) with SW land is to save costs by cloning as much as possible across the various resorts. The footprints around the existing Star Tours locations don't lend themselves to cloning as they are so different and even in different types of parks, and this could be one factor in why SW land is taking so long, but clearcutting a whole area at DL might make this easier.

Finally, why get rid of a ToonTown that is a just fine. RR is a really good experience and always has a long line, and kids tend to love the land since it comes alive with all the interactive gags in the area. And having Fantasyland transition to two separate futuristic environments makes no sense. Especially this one where if they use the same entrance you would walk past IASW's celebration of harmony and brotherhood to enter Star WARS.

 

[seahawk7]

It would be (figuratively) miles away from the NOS-Adventureland-Frontierland-Critter Country area. Having an area like that allows you to sort of set the precedent that it is going to be something different. If they do go ahead with this plan, then I see Marvel taking up the space in Tomorrowland. I highly highly doubt it will be STARWARSTARWARSTARWARSit'sasmallworldSTARWARSTARWARS. It will be Tomorrowland as the mishmash that it has been for a while, the Nemo Subs and the Matterhorn create a pretty good Fantasyland-Tomorrowland buffer, followed by the IASW area, followed by the new Star Wars area on the other side of the train tracks. That's if Star Tours even stays in its current spot. On big projects, extra money gets thrown in to do things you otherwise wouldn't bother with. It probably depends on how much Marvel they want to do in Tomorrowland.

Thank you for the visual concerning FL, that really helped me see that area. (The aerials that were given before didn't help me see it.) I still can't picture how it won't affect FL because when we go for the MNNSHP we trick or treat at Thunder Ranch which leads into a Pinochio restaurant. Plus when you walk from the Story boats down the slope with IASW on your right, going under the bridge TOONTown fits in.
If you want to help me picture that side by Thunder Ranch that would very nice of you because you do a great job describing it.

 

[Mike S]

I don't think I'm being harsh at all. Imagineering used to thrive on doing the impossible. And my second point was that TL needs "a sizeable re- theming", and this would be the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone.

I'm not much into armchair imagineering, but to address part of your point I wouldn't have a problem with retheming Space Mountain to SW. Having SM themed to an IP isn't without precedent as that is the case in Paris.

I mentioned this before on in a different thread, but I'll bet one of their major motivations (and issues) with SW land is to save costs by cloning as much as possible across the various resorts. The footprints around the existing Star Tours locations don't lend themselves to cloning as they are so different and even in different types of parks, and this could be one factor in why SW land is taking so long, but clearcutting a whole area at DL might make this easier.

Finally, why get rid of a ToonTown that is a just fine. RR is a really good experience and always has a long line, and kids tend to love the land since it comes alive with all the interactive gags in the area. And having Fantasyland transition to two separate futuristic environments makes no sense. Especially this one where if they use the same entrance you would walk past IASW's celebration of harmony and brotherhood to enter Star WARS.

That is one reason why I'm a bit apprehensive of how Star Wars could end up in DHS. We definitely have the space for something great but if they truly just want to clone everything I can't see them giving WDW special treatment due to our "blessing of size". I mean, god forbid we get an amazing Star Wars E Ticket that we have the space for but Disneyland doesn't

 

[Stevek]

I assume this is a joke?

Very much so. We all know Screamin was a D and Superstar Limo was the real E-Ticket ; )

 

[Quinnmac000]

Superstar Limo was so bad it was amazing. It will be missed.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Thank you for the visual concerning FL, that really helped me see that area. (The aerials that were given before didn't help me see it.) I still can't picture how it won't affect FL because when we go for the MNNSHP we trick or treat at Thunder Ranch which leads into a Pinochio restaurant. Plus when you walk from the Story boats down the slope with IASW on your right, going under the bridge TOONTown fits in.
If you want to help me picture that side by Thunder Ranch that would very nice of you because you do a great job describing it.

There wouldn't even necessarily have to be an entrance over there by the Ranch area, but it wouldn't be a terrible place to have one. "Far" is a relative term when you're talking about Disneyland, but the Ranch land is relatively far from Fantasyland and the Pinocchio Village Haus. You could even move the entrance to the new area so that it's a little closer to the Frontierland side than the Big Thunder Ranch entrance is without hurting anything on that side. And don't forget, if they really will take ALL of that land, they will have some room to let things breathe... even if it will technically be inside the bounds of the new Star Wars land. Walking that path from the Village Haus brings you to the Ranch somewhat quickly, but the closest "attraction" on the other side is the Columbia/Mark Twain dock some distance away. There are views of the Rivers of America and BTMRR along the path, but that is a pretty quiet area. Anything new you build back there could be set apart from anything else in the park, it wouldn't be like how DL's Splash and Haunted Mansion are on top of each other.

 

[wogwog]

Are they startle ted on ship #5+ yet? If not, they should be. As the article notes, other cruise lines are moving aggressively into Asia. RCL sending new ships there being just one example.

No ships are currently under construction. Two are in the pipeline and are rumored to be a mid size between the present two newer ones and two classic ones. Info from a highly placed DCL folk I know.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Very much so. We all know Screamin was a D and Superstar Limo was the real E-Ticket ; )

I do like Screamin'. It's a roller coaster so people would be quick to call it an E, but it would be a weak one at that. Personally, I think it would be a better ride, both from a thematic standpoint and an actual ride standpoint if the loop was removed.

 

[seahawk7]

There wouldn't even necessarily have to be an entrance over there by the Ranch area, but it wouldn't be a terrible place to have one. "Far" is a relative term when you're talking about Disneyland, but the Ranch land is relatively far from Fantasyland and the Pinocchio Village Haus. You could even move the entrance to the new area so that it's a little closer to the Frontierland side than the Big Thunder Ranch entrance is without hurting anything on that side. And don't forget, if they really will take ALL of that land, they will have some room to let things breathe... even if it will technically be inside the bounds of the new Star Wars land. Walking that path from the Village Haus brings you to the Ranch somewhat quickly, but the closest "attraction" on the other side is the Columbia/Mark Twain dock some distance away. There are views of the Rivers of America and BTMRR along the path, but that is a pretty quiet area. Anything new you build back there could be set apart from anything else in the park, it wouldn't be like how DL's Splash and Haunted Mansion are on top of each other.

Yeah good point but I'm just not sold. I would hate to lose that area because it is a nice area the way it is. I really wish they had more land to accommodate everything but that is one of the reasons they acquired so much land in Florida.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Spirited Friday Afternoon Musings:

So, UNI is touting the HE ridership while WDW is telling people they can't even stand in line for attractions or to purchase crappy QS food. Yes, I do get why the UNI fanbois are crowing.

A quiet Friday in the dog days of summer (or as we Floridians call it -- Back to School and Football Pre-Season) and some folks want to have another Iger vs. Eisner discussion. Everyone knows my feelings on this, but since MDE has been sorta in my orbit this week, I feel like spreading some facts.

If you are a fan of the WDW of today ... of anything from DVC to DAK Lodge ... from BB to Stitch ... from DCL to ESPN ... from EE (with or without Disco Yeti) to Napa Rose ... from Soarin over California to the California Grill (either of them) ... from DLP to TDS ... from Port Orleans to Fantasmic in NoS ... well, you are a fan of Michael Eisner's or you should be.

Hell, he actually planned for monorail expansion multiple times!

The facts speak for themselves. Michael (and Frank and Roy and MANY talented folks under them) made the Disney that you love, the one that you might even have an unhealthy attachment to. You'll look back at years like 1995 or1999 or even 2005 like they were a Golden Age.

But...but I don't like DVC. I don't like ESPN. I don't like theme parks as shopping malls. I don't like poor maintenance. I don't like WDW as a real estate project.

The WDW that I fell in love with was build before Eisner. The MK, EPCOT, Seven Seas area, River Country / Discovery Island, Lake Buena Vista. Despite Eisner mismanaging all of those they are still better than anything he build, from TPFKaDMGMS (what, suddenly instead of a half day park it is the greatest park ever?) to DAK (which might finally be a good park after Iger's repaired it), to All-Big Props Motels and sports complexes (seriously?) and racetracks (seriously?).

Eisner didn't build WDW. He vandalised it. And developed the other half no longer as America's most promising urban/vacation kingdom experiment but as a mediocre resort.

Pre-Eisner MK:

Eisner MK:

Iger MK:

Walker EPCOT:

Eisner EPCOT:

And I shall not bore you with what Eisner did to a once stately and elegant riverboat. Although that is one of the most potent symbols of Eisner's lack of respect and abyssmal treatment of WDW.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

You'll look back at years like 1995 or1999 or even 2005 like they were a Golden Age.

That I'm afraid whitewashes history. Let us not pretend Save Disney didn't happen. That Re-Imagineering didn't happen. That Al Lutz didn't happen. Eisner's second half was a bitter destruction of everything we hold dear about Disney and WDW.

Eisner got EPCOT and ripped out Horizons and Motion and Energy and CommuniCore. Eisner took Imagination and gave us Abomination. Eisner got the MK and gave us Toonville. Eisner took away the canoes and the keelboats and the second paddlewheel and the skyway and 20k and the cinema and the Penny Arcade and the flower market and the antique shop and the magic shop and West Street etc etc.

What has Iger taken away? What part of WDW is worse now than in 2005? Iger restored the MK, from building a Fantasyland again to the Tiki room and tackled the MK's longstanding infrastructure problems, all at tremendous expense. Headliners are actually maintained again, from Mansion to Thunder. DAK is being fixed too, at tremendous expense. As is Lake Buena Vista. Iger may lack true vision, or the vision any one of us wants, but at least he restored pride in Disney again. From the animation department (Frozen instead of Home on The Range), to DL, where fans fell on their knees and thanked the heavens when the Eisner-Pressler attack on their resort was finally over (no more people dying on rides!), to DLP, slowly.

Amazing to think that in thirty years time America's most exciting urban project had become known in urban explorer circles as some kind of Detroit. A place of ruinination, of former glory. Walt's Florida Project as the laughing stock of the internet.

Pics galore.

Spoiler: That Phillisteisner!:

What that PhillistEisner did to WDW:

Thankfully Iger turned this last eyesore, the largest ruin of them all, into this:

 

[stlphil]

The Circle D is a backstage area to take care of the MSUSA horses, as well as the other critters that have ended up at Disneyland. There's a petting zoo there, and the presidentially-pardoned turkeys used to live out their days at Disneyland for a while. The similar facility at WDW is at Ft. Wilderness (Tri-Circle D?) and the horses commute to MK. Nobody will honestly miss the petting zoo if it's replaced with something instead of just being shuttered.

Big Thunder Ranch is really just an area for seasonal events. Nobody will miss it.

The Fantasyland Theater is getting close to "missing it". The current show there is good, but not great (by my experience and estimation of others' reviews). Nobody expects that particular show to last forever, in contrast with the outcry when the Toy Story Musical was supposed to replace Aladdin at DCA. For some reason, people generally think that shows have less repeatability than rides do; with the heavily local base, I think that definitely factors in. There's nothing really special about the theater itself... although Disney did spend money to upgrade it just a few years ago for the current show that's there. Again, I think it's the kind of thing that people would complain about if it was just being closed instead of replaced.

Toontown's closing will be by far the toughest sell to the fans. There's three things going for the land: the Roger Rabbit dark ride, Mickey & Minnie's houses, and the overall art direction of the land is very good. BUT, there's a bunch of underutilized space and much of the land has been lawyerized. It's not what it once was. I'm assuming Disney will have to do something with Mickey & Minnie both for operations purposes and PR purposes, but I could definitely see them discarding the Roger Rabbit ride. That will be the toughest sell.

Really nice summary.

One more thing to add to the Toontown description is all the interactive elements scattered all over the land. I suspect that a lot of first timers who go back into Toontown leave without ever realizing that they've missed them, but there are enough of them that it wouldn't surprise me if I've missed one or two of them over the years. Kids love discovering them, and I've seen them put plenty of smiles on adults' faces, too.

As far as the Roger Rabbit ride, I would have ridden it much more often if it didn't always have such a long line. I guess it's not very popular.

 

[Stevek]

Superstar Limo was so bad it was amazing. It will be missed.

I remember going to a preview before going it opened to the general public and laughing all the way through because I could not believe what I was seeing. It was perhaps, if not definitely, the worst Disney creation I've ever experienced.

 

[GoofGoof]

Actually 2 more E-Tickets. Screamin' and Superstar Limo . The Tortilla Factory was a strong D as well.

I thought about adding the roller coaster. Superstar Limo not so much. That was one of those ideas that sounds great when everyone is high one night. Unfortunately they didn't wake up the next day and say what the heck were we thinking.

 

[WDW1974]

Spirited Weekend Quickees:

The DLR Star Wars info is VERY good and fairly up to date (had to delay it for what should be obvious reasons). I do have details that I am not going to put out beyond that.

For those who can't picture StarToonLand, I would go back to the reactions I got when I mentioned UNI was expanding Potter into two parks, connecting the areas via backstage with the Hogwart's Express and taking away the iconic Jaws to do so. People didn't believe it and came up with all sorts of logical reasons why what I said was impossible.

While I wouldn't say Disney will be breaking new ground here, there are multiple ways they can do this and that's really as far as I am going. When the desire is there as well as the dollars and creative energy ... well, amazing things can happen. Will that be the case here? Will they even not change things up? I have no idea. I am pretty sure this will be happening. But I am not as sure as I was with Potter because ... well, UNI has more faith in its products than Disney does today.

Speaking of Potter, I have seen and heard the tales that BOTH Uni parks have outdrawn three of four Disney parks every day in July. It sounds great. It gets the UNI fanbois as hot and bothered as retro Horizons tees gets Disney fanbois' juices flowing. BUT ... I don't believe it and I'd love to know the sources who have access to both daily counts at every Disney and every UNI park for every day. I'd guess if anyone truly had access to all of those numbers daily that they could have a very nice Lifestyler site by simply posting them.

I'd certainly buy that they outdrew one Disney park, maybe even two on most days (I was at the busiest park, MK, on the busiest days of the month except for July 4th and I can say that crowds were not typical.) but all three, every day? Ah, yeah, that sounds rational. Frankly, if that were the case, the records UNI would be setting would be so impressive that they would be releasing that in PR form. They haven't.

I am never amazed at the lengths some people will passive aggressively go to not do the right thing.

Look, I am a Michael Eisner fan and I think Bob Iger is not a quality leader. I've said that. But to hear folks take shots at Eisner in 2014 and blame the state of WDW (or P&R in general) on him is patently absurd. The Weatherman has been leading Disney for almost nine years. You want to anoint him as the second coming because Marvel films make lots of $$$? Then, how exactly can you not rip him for allowing WDW to wallow in neglect and timeshares? He is going to leave without ever opening an E-Ticket at ONE WDW park. But hey he is responsible for the lousy food at BoG, right? And those uber kewl MAGIC Bands, right?

Bob Iger has been amazing for Wall Street, but an abomination for Main Street USA (and the other supposedly/formerly themed lands of the MK!)

Enjoying @WDWFigment's HKDL trip report on his blog.

Yes, the next two DCL ships will be the Spirit and the Imagination. Really!!!

Funny how time clouds many minds (but not mine) and no one seems to realize how bad off WDW was from 2001 (yes, pre/9/11 recession, remember?) to 2004. Yet, as @ParentsOf4 has shown, MDE didn't crawl into a new spending shell. ... Ah, but fanbois still have WDW's 50th to look forward to in SEVEN LONG YEARS! Sure, I am sure new CEO Tom Rasulo will have an unending supply of new product in the parks. Sure.

Did I mention that Mrs. Ricky's MealTicket loves the new Club 33? Just checking. Has the Mongello been there yet? I'd guess that Celebration Place will loan him out to TDA soon if they haven't already.

OK, so I got an email from WDW that was advertising just Pop Century. Not for AP or FL resident rates. No specials at all. Just an email pushing Pop Century. Found that odd. ... Do I look like the kind of person who would ever pay more than $75 to stay there (taxes included)?

Did y'all get the special RnRC 15th Anniversary merchandise?

Finally, I'll tackle the heavy subject that was brought up: namely attempting to bring about change. Look, I get that many people feel powerless in life. Part of that is our society ... Wall Street and D.C. want you to feel that all is hopeless and you should be worried about nothing beyond getting the newest iPhone tracker. But I know ... yes, KNOW ... that people can make positive changes. In their communities, in the companies they do business with, anywhere.

It does start with confidence.

But you have to go in believing. If you think that you are powerless, then you are. I don't intend to go back and forth with individuals here who believe that complaining here and in the real world is all a waste when I know that it isn't. If you've given up on life, on society, on government, then great. You're part of the problem, but there's nothing the rest of us can do about that. But some of us know that it isn't hopeless and we're going to keep on keeping on. I really don't have much else to say to you.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

As far as the Roger Rabbit ride, I would have ridden it much more often if it didn't always have such a long line. I guess it's not very popular.

Nobody rides that thing; it's too crowded!

 

[WDW1974]

Based on the way Disney has treated the Central Government, they would be lucky if they got knockoff Pandas.

Disney isn't getting pandas, at least anytime soon.

And while I like all sorts of critters (even fanbois), having seen many in China, I gotta say they are overrated as an animal attraction. They generally can be found spreadeagled on their back passed out from too much noshing (OK, this does sound like some fanbois!)

Sure, they're cute. But so are 'wittle bear cubs and lion cubs (and I've been lucky enough to have gotten to interact with those -- when they were very little!)

As much as I want to see new/more animal exhibits at DAK, I don't see any being the draw of a top shelf ride or three.

 

[WDW1974]

I actually agree with that last sentence. Compare with Hogsmeade when it opened, where FJ had 5-hour lines but the rest of the park was empty.

That said, been fed numbers from various sources--both Uni parks have, in average daily attendance, surpassed at least one WDW park this Summer. Probably two.

I 100% believe that. And I have seen no numbers from July.

 

[danlb_2000]

Spirited Weekend Quickees:

The DLR Star Wars info is VERY good and fairly up to date (had to delay it for what should be obvious reasons). I do have details that I am not going to put out beyond that.

For those who can't picture StarToonLand, I would go back to the reactions I got when I mentioned UNI was expanding Potter into two parks, connecting the areas via backstage with the Hogwart's Express and taking away the iconic Jaws to do so. People didn't believe it and came up with all sorts of logical reasons why what I said was impossible.

While I wouldn't say Disney will be breaking new ground here, there are multiple ways they can do this and that's really as far as I am going. When the desire is there as well as the dollars and creative energy ... well, amazing things can happen. Will that be the case here? Will they even not change things up? I have no idea. I am pretty sure this will be happening. But I am not as sure as I was with Potter because ... well, UNI has more faith in its products than Disney does today.

Speaking of Potter, I have seen and heard the tales that BOTH Uni parks have outdrawn three of four Disney parks every day in July. It sounds great. It gets the UNI fanbois as hot and bothered as retro Horizons tees gets Disney fanbois' juices flowing. BUT ... I don't believe it and I'd love to know the sources who have access to both daily counts at every Disney and every UNI park for every day. I'd guess if anyone truly had access to all of those numbers daily that they could have a very nice Lifestyler site by simply posting them.

I'd certainly buy that they outdrew one Disney park, maybe even two on most days (I was at the busiest park, MK, on the busiest days of the month except for July 4th and I can say that crowds were not typical.) but all three, every day? Ah, yeah, that sounds rational. Frankly, if that were the case, the records UNI would be setting would be so impressive that they would be releasing that in PR form. They haven't.

I am never amazed at the lengths some people will passive aggressively go to not do the right thing.

Look, I am a Michael Eisner fan and I think Bob Iger is not a quality leader. I've said that. But to hear folks take shots at Eisner in 2014 and blame the state of WDW (or P&R in general) on him is patently absurd. The Weatherman has been leading Disney for almost nine years. You want to anoint him as the second coming because Marvel films make lots of $$$? Then, how exactly can you not rip him for allowing WDW to wallow in neglect and timeshares? He is going to leave without ever opening an E-Ticket at ONE WDW park. But hey he is responsible for the lousy food at BoG, right? And those uber kewl MAGIC Bands, right?

Bob Iger has been amazing for Wall Street, but an abomination for Main Street USA (and the other supposedly/formerly themed lands of the MK!)

Enjoying @WDWFigment's HKDL trip report on his blog.

Yes, the next two DCL ships will be the Spirit and the Imagination. Really!!!

Funny how time clouds many minds (but not mine) and no one seems to realize how bad off WDW was from 2001 (yes, pre/9/11 recession, remember?) to 2004. Yet, as @ParentsOf4 has shown, MDE didn't crawl into a new spending shell. ... Ah, but fanbois still have WDW's 50th to look forward to in SEVEN LONG YEARS! Sure, I am sure new CEO Tom Rasulo will have an unending supply of new product in the parks. Sure.

Did I mention that Mrs. Ricky's MealTicket loves the new Club 33? Just checking. Has the Mongello been there yet? I'd guess that Celebration Place will loan him out to TDA soon if they haven't already.

OK, so I got an email from WDW that was advertising just Pop Century. Not for AP or FL resident rates. No specials at all. Just an email pushing Pop Century. Found that odd. ... Do I look like the kind of person who would ever pay more than $75 to stay there (taxes included)?

Did y'all get the special RnRC 15th Anniversary merchandise?

Finally, I'll tackle the heavy subject that was brought up: namely attempting to bring about change. Look, I get that many people feel powerless in life. Part of that is our society ... Wall Street and D.C. want you to feel that all is hopeless and you should be worried about nothing beyond getting the newest iPhone tracker. But I know ... yes, KNOW ... that people can make positive changes. In their communities, in the companies they do business with, anywhere.

It does start with confidence.

But you have to go in believing. If you think that you are powerless, then you are. I don't intend to go back and forth with individuals here who believe that complaining here and in the real world is all a waste when I know that it isn't. If you've given up on life, on society, on government, then great. You're part of the problem, but there's nothing the rest of us can do about that. But some of us know that it isn't hopeless and we're going to keep on keeping on. I really don't have much else to say to you.

I don't know if I believe the Uni passing Disney parks rumor either, but if they did pass two (AK and DHS), I might not be a stretch that they also passed Epcot. In 2013 Epcot was only about 1 million ahead of AK, and I would bet Epcot picks up a lot of that difference during Food and Wine and around Christmas.

 

[WDW1974]

That is not my take.

Eisner gave us DCA and WDSP, destroyed EPCOT, ended the dreams of the Florida project for McDonald's and sprawling motels, let the existing parks rot and be turned into malls, and made the Disney animation brand synonymous with direct-to-video crapquels.

Iger is still cleaning up Eisner's mess, at the expense of billions upon billions. Luckily, Iger's project of making Disney a world class brand again is now slowly paying off, but it has come with a hefty price tag.

Oh puh-lease. How? How is he cleaning up ''Eisner's mess''? And what kind of inept leader is he that there is almost no discernible signs of progress almost nine years in? Indeed, what about things that have gotten worse ... much worse under Bob? (everything from food quality and prices to monorails falling apart to attraction show quality)