The Most Expendable Disneyland Land?

[Chris82]

It occurred to me, after staring at maps of Hong Kong Disneyland and Shanghai Disneyland as well as a bunch of armchair Imagineering park designs, that poor Frontierland gets the shaft WAY too often.

Now, I understand that the Chinese may not have any particular interest in the American Wild West, and that even Americans themselves have long since lost their obsession with cowboys and coonskin caps. That's all fair. But I still feel like Frontierland brings something to the table that the other lands can't as much - a connection to a historical reality. Frontierland, as well as its adjunct lands like New Orleans Square and Liberty Square, provides a grounding, a sense of something real beyond the illusion that can be connected to and explored. Without Frontierland (or an equivalent), everything starts to feel like a cartoon - fake, weightless, maybe even a little cold and cynical.

I know not everyone feels this way, but I really enjoy exploring lands like World Showcase, Animal Kingdom's Africa, New Orleans Square and Liberty Square because of the illusion that I'm connecting to something real - that I can really discover something there (which is also why inserting Frozen so heavily into Norway feels like such a violation).

So it's not that Shanghai Disneyland needs a Frontierland exactly, but I think it does need whatever the Chinese equivalent might be - Dynastyland, or some such. Something to connect the park to a historical reality, and then add layers of fantasy on top

But imagine you were tasked with designing a Magic Kingdom clone for a new resort, but told you only had the budget for four of the original five lands. Which would you ax? I admit to not having a good answer to that question, because I feel like they're all needed and provide an important balance. What do you think?

 

[Chris82]

On an unrelated note, Dynastyland should definitely feature the "Country Panda Jamboree."

That is all.

 

[orlando678-]

I think the Chinese equivalent would be great! It could have something like a Mulan ride, a mountain rollercoaster similar to Expedition Everest but based on Chinese spirits and something else

 

[The90skid]

Based on your scenario, I woud have to axe Main Street, but don't kill me yet!! Technically it only serves as an elaborate opening to the park. I understand that it has a role of immersing you into the park, but the other lands are just so integral to the park itself. The rides, the scenery, the restaurants, the other lands house some of the most iconic. I love all of the lands in Magic Kingdom, and I would even put Main Street above some of the others, but logistically, if one section HAD to go.... buh bye Dapper Dans

 

[Chris82]

Based on your scenario, I woud have to axe Main Street, but don't kill me yet!! Technically it only serves as an elaborate opening to the park. I understand that it has a role of immersing you into the park, but the other lands are just so integral to the park itself. The rides, the scenery, the restaurants, the other lands house some of the most iconic. I love all of the lands in Magic Kingdom, and I would even put Main Street above some of the others, but logistically, if one section HAD to go.... buh bye Dapper Dans

Yeah, that's pretty much where I came down, too, although it's sad because I do love Main Street. I actually remember seeing some concept art for a park (early Shanghai? Dubai?) where Fantasyland WAS the Main Street. I thought that was interesting, and might even work.

That said, I feel kind of icky about the blob-like tendency of all parks and lands to eventually morph into variations of Fantasyland. While I love some of the individual Fantasyland attractions, for the most part, it's never been my personal favorite land of the big 5. I sometimes wonder if Fantasyland was the price Walt had to pay to get the other lands built, the stuff he was really interested in - trains, riverboats and monorails, futurism, patriotism, and nostalgia (as I understand it, early plans for Disneyland were essentially nothing BUT Frontierland). But when the population hears "Disneyland," a lot of people would expect carnival rides overlaid with Mickey Mouse and Cinderella, and that's what Fantasyland supplies, with a light touch of medieval theming.

Not that I would ever ax Fantasyland, mind you. Although I might try to restrict it to pure medieval fairy tales, knights, castles, and dragons and such. The dragon in Paris seems like the right direction for the area...

 

[The90skid]

Yeah, that's pretty much where I came down, too, although it's sad because I do love Main Street. I actually remember seeing some concept art for a park (early Shanghai? Dubai?) where Fantasyland WAS the Main Street. I thought that was interesting, and might even work.

That said, I feel kind of icky about the blob-like tendency of all parks and lands to eventually morph into variations of Fantasyland. While I love some of the individual Fantasyland attractions, for the most part, it's never been my personal favorite land of the big 5. I sometimes wonder if Fantasyland was the price Walt had to pay to get the other lands built, the stuff he was really interested in - trains, riverboats and monorails, futurism, patriotism, and nostalgia (as I understand it, early plans for Disneyland were essentially nothing BUT Frontierland). But when the population hears "Disneyland," a lot of people would expect carnival rides overlaid with Mickey Mouse and Cinderella, and that's what Fantasyland supplies, with a light touch of medieval theming.

Not that I would ever ax Fantasyland, mind you. Although I might try to restrict it to pure medieval fairy tales, knights, castles, and dragons and such. The dragon in Paris seems like the right direction for the area...

Yeah, Fantasyland was and is IP heavy. But, in that regard, it was a great idea! Put all of the beloved animation in one area, leaving the rest of the park for non-IP creativity. Unfortunately nowadays IP is splattered everywhere.

 

[orlando678-]

Yeah, that's pretty much where I came down, too, although it's sad because I do love Main Street. I actually remember seeing some concept art for a park (early Shanghai? Dubai?) where Fantasyland WAS the Main Street. I thought that was interesting, and might even work.

That said, I feel kind of icky about the blob-like tendency of all parks and lands to eventually morph into variations of Fantasyland. While I love some of the individual Fantasyland attractions, for the most part, it's never been my personal favorite land of the big 5. I sometimes wonder if Fantasyland was the price Walt had to pay to get the other lands built, the stuff he was really interested in - trains, riverboats and monorails, futurism, patriotism, and nostalgia (as I understand it, early plans for Disneyland were essentially nothing BUT Frontierland). But when the population hears "Disneyland," a lot of people would expect carnival rides overlaid with Mickey Mouse and Cinderella, and that's what Fantasyland supplies, with a light touch of medieval theming.

Not that I would ever ax Fantasyland, mind you. Although I might try to restrict it to pure medieval fairy tales, knights, castles, and dragons and such. The dragon in Paris seems like the right direction for the area...

I think you mean the design for Dubai Disneyland, which looked cool, but also a bit weird. I don't believe it was his price to pay, he always had more attention for the Fantasyland fairy tales and even he gave a lot of exciting info about Fantasyland compared to the other lands. It must have gone wrong somewhere after 1980s or so, because before that everyone used to have more favorites outside Fantasyland. If you look for example at a Disneyland documentary then you see all the kids talking about Jungle Cruise, Davey Crockett, Autopia and Rocket to the Moon and one or two talked about Sleeping Beauty Castle. It's probably because the movies they made were more feasible for Fantasyland and most of the attention was given to it too.

 

[Chris82]

Yeah, Fantasyland was and is IP heavy. But, in that regard, it was a great idea! Put all of the beloved animation in one area, leaving the rest of the park for non-IP creativity. Unfortunately nowadays IP is splattered everywhere.

Just to be clear, it's not really IP in-and-of-itself that I have a problem with - it's the much weaker sense of illusion and immersion (and therefore, ironically, the least fantasy of all the lands!) Indiana Jones can live quite naturally in Adventureland and Song of the South can work nicely in Frontierland, but Dumbo (20th century), Alice in Wonderland (19th century), and Sleeping Beauty (medieval) make for awkward bedfellows in Fantasyland. The worst Fantasylands feel essentially like plastic carnivals. I love the feeling I used to get from exploring the interior of Cinderella Castle - if that feeling could be extended throughout Fantasyland, that would be awesome, regardless of IP or non-IP-based attractions. For me at least

I think you mean the design for Dubai Disneyland, which looked cool, but also a bit weird. I don't believe it was his price to pay, he always had more attention for the Fantasyland fairy tales and even he gave a lot of exciting info about Fantasyland compared to the other lands. It must have gone wrong somewhere after 1980s or so, because before that everyone used to have more favorites outside Fantasyland. If you look for example at a Disneyland documentary then you see all the kids talking about Jungle Cruise, Davey Crockett, Autopia and Rocket to the Moon and one or two talked about Sleeping Beauty Castle. It's probably because the movies they made were more feasible for Fantasyland and most of the attention was given to it too.

You may very well be right that Walt didn't feel that Fantasyland was the "price" of the stuff he was really interested in - I don't really know. I'm just going on my feeling for Walt's boredom with things that he had already done, his relative disconnect from the animation studio during the 50's, his story about Disneyland being inspired by his frustration with watching his daughters ride a carousel (so why then, Walt, make a carousel the centerpiece of Fantasyland?), his intense fascination with trains, the early plans of Disneyland (pre-Anaheim) which seemed very centered around what would become Frontierland/Rivers of America, and the fact that pretty much all major E-tickets added to Disneyland during Walt's lifetime were added to lands other than Fantasyland (I think it's a small world might be the only exception?).

That said, that's all admittedly pretty circumstantial, and in 1955 Fantasyland was certainly the most developed of all the lands. I'm sure you're right that the kids (as well as the adults) loved the whole park. I genuinely might be projecting my impression of the modern public onto the 50's when it probably didn't apply - maybe kids in the 50's were happier with forts and jungle expeditions and rockets than they are now. Or maybe they still love that kind of thing now, Disney's just forgotten how to sell it without characters slapped all over it like a lunchbox. Who knows?

Looking at old Disneyland designs, I came across one image that showed a truly epic castle where Fantasyland would go - man wouldn't be it awesome to have something like that in some park some day...

 

[orlando678-]

Just to be clear, it's not really IP in-and-of-itself that I have a problem with - it's the much weaker sense of illusion and immersion (and therefore, ironically, the least fantasy of all the lands!) Indiana Jones can live quite naturally in Adventureland and Song of the South can work nicely in Frontierland, but Dumbo (20th century), Alice in Wonderland (19th century), and Sleeping Beauty (medieval) make for awkward bedfellows in Fantasyland. The worst Fantasylands feel essentially like plastic carnivals. I love the feeling I used to get from exploring the interior of Cinderella Castle - if that feeling could be extended throughout Fantasyland, that would be awesome, regardless of IP or non-IP-based attractions. For me at least



You may very well be right that Walt didn't feel that Fantasyland was the "price" of the stuff he was really interested in - I don't really know. I'm just going on my feeling for Walt's boredom with things that he had already done, his relative disconnect from the animation studio during the 50's, his story about Disneyland being inspired by his frustration with watching his daughters ride a carousel (so why then, Walt, make a carousel the centerpiece of Fantasyland?), his intense fascination with trains, the early plans of Disneyland (pre-Anaheim) which seemed very centered around what would become Frontierland/Rivers of America, and the fact that pretty much all major E-tickets added to Disneyland during Walt's lifetime were added to lands other than Fantasyland (I think it's a small world might be the only exception?).

That said, that's all admittedly pretty circumstantial, and in 1955 Fantasyland was certainly the most developed of all the lands. I'm sure you're right that the kids (as well as the adults) loved the whole park. I genuinely might be projecting my impression of the modern public onto the 50's when it probably didn't apply - maybe kids in the 50's were happier with forts and jungle expeditions and rockets than they are now. Or maybe they still love that kind of thing now, Disney's just forgotten how to sell it without characters slapped all over it like a lunchbox. Who knows?

Looking at old Disneyland designs, I came across one image that showed a truly epic castle where Fantasyland would go - man wouldn't be it awesome to have something like that in some park some day...

it could be because of the fact that the dimension of exotic worlds, the future and the history was way new back then, while nowadays people see rockets as normal things and not totally futuristic. Also frontierland and adventureland are very close to reality, while fantasyland is usually a complete new world. People can easily make a trip to Africa or Asia for example and Frontierland just became too close to reality, while people wanted to be amazed by fantastic elements, but I still believe Disney that offers that though, because you don't see pirates everyday. The problem now is that Disney thinks that the only way to amaze people is by using franchise( which does help), while this is not the only thing they have to do( see pirates of the Caribbean, test track haunted mansion etc.). I just hope they'll figure that out very soon.