Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

[WDW1974]

... from a quickee holiday visit to WDW and UNI this week.

Let's start with the stuff you likely don't know.

EMH. You like it? You don't? You are ambivalent? Well, doesn't matter because plans are to eliminate it. First step was cutting night hours down from three to two. Look for that to drop more and nights to slowly get eliminated. They'll cut back mornings lastly as they are more popular, but look for DAK to lose a morning soon as well.

The reason? Resort guests will be getting a perq (using Queen's English here) in the form of extra FP+ so that will allow them to ride as much as the extra time allegedly does. It's all about eliminating labor hours for ops, while telling guests it's the amount of rides they get, not when they get them that matters.

Upset that Fantasmic looks like a disaster? Well, it seems that maintenance has basically been told not to fix anything that breaks or doesn't work because the show isn't long for the park. Let the WoC rumours commence.

EPCOT truly looks sad at the holidays with such little decoration. And c'mon guys, can't you at least keep all the lights on the tree working? Or maybe add some more pyro back to RoE (tag nonwithstanding)?

New Fantasyland? ... Where do I even start. Maybe tomorrow or Monday. ... But while what's there looks detailed and nice (and it does), can I also state that The Port of Entry at IOA is just as detailed or more and that ET is a better ride in 2012 than Little Mermaid is? Oh, I just did.

Gotta remember to also plug the best new thing at the MK that no one seems to want to talk about (no, it isn't pork shanks at Gaston's ... or the new interactive game Help Gary Buchanan Find His Missing Dragon!)

More to come you can be sure ...

 

[Bolna]

EMH. You like it? You don't? You are ambivalent? Well, doesn't matter because plans are to eliminate it. First step was cutting night hours down from three to two. Look for that to drop more and nights to slowly get eliminated. They'll cut back mornings lastly as they are more popular, but look for DAK to lose a morning soon as well.

The reason? Resort guests will be getting a perq (using Queen's English here) in the form of extra FP+ so that will allow them to ride as much as the extra time allegedly does. It's all about eliminating labor hours for ops, while telling guests it's the amount of rides they get, not when they get them that matters.

That's what @ParentsOf4 has been saying for a few days now as it seems to be the logical conclusion as how NextGen will be worth the money spent on it.

ETA: Oh - and I am looking forward to read more about your experiences!! What did you think of the Test Track refurbishment?

 

[WDW1974]

That's what @ParentsOf4 has been saying for a few days now as it seems to be the logical conclusion as how NextGen will be worth the money spent on it.

That's just one way. And I don't at all think this will lead to longer hours for all at all.

But having the MK operate from 7 a.m. until 3 a.m. as it will do a few days this holiday period (7-1 others) is utter insanity as well. First, there isn't that much to do at that park, no matter the crowds. And, if things are really that bad with lines and capacity, then Disney ought to actually be adding attractions, not spending billions on figuring out that FP+ looks like the Ford Edsel (yes, way before my time ... but boys like cars!)

 

[Bolna]

That's just one way. And I don't at all think this will lead to longer hours for all at all.

But having the MK operate from 7 a.m. until 3 a.m. as it will do a few days this holiday period (7-1 others) is utter insanity as well. First, there isn't that much to do at that park, no matter the crowds. And, if things are really that bad with lines and capacity, then Disney ought to actually be adding attractions, not spending billions on figuring out that FP+ looks like the Ford Edsel (yes, way before my time ... but boys like cars!)

You mentioned that Disney keeps telling guests that the number of attractions is the important thing that people measure a day at a theme park by. Remember that article about the underground control center that was going to deploy parades when an area was too crowded? It now seems that what was being said there was really foreshadowing about what is coming now and the motives behind it.

Also, I don't believe that the number of attractions is the only thing that counts. Of course if you can't get on any ride, that makes the day not a success. But I also believe that a lot of little things have an influence of how people rate their experience - some of them might not even be noticeable. Like background music. I am sure only a small percentage of average guests would say that the wonderful music made their day more magical. But if you take it away, I am also certain that the overall experience would be lessened for most people and they might not even know why.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Rightfully or wrongfully (my money's on rightfully) park operations runs under the assumption that there is a 'magic number' of rides per day a guest needs to have, below which the guest will leave unsatisfied, and above of which happily satisfied. On a guest satisfaction graph this looks like the Mariana Trench, there´s such a deep, steep incline in guest satisfaction below and above this magic number. closely guerded, I´ve read anywhere from between 8.5 and 11.

The goal of park ops is to have guests ride this number of rides as efficiently as possible. Prefereably not many more than this number, or they just ride without noticeable increase in happiness, and not less either.

I´m intrigued by the effect of fastpass+, coupled with reduced hours, and the skewed distribution of f+ towards on-site visitors. In these alterations, on-site guests receive their magic number effortlessly. Off/site, cheap ticket guests, not so much, in fact, only insofar as capacity allows. This basically says that WDW is not at all looking to add capacity, or to draw more guests. But rather, to more efficiently exploit current WDW. They don´t need guests who don´t spend. They want them gone on behalf of the on-site, big/spending guests.

And why not. With capacity problems being what they are, adding one, two or three million more guests who don´t spend anyway is a waste of resources. Let them go to UNI and their $225 AP.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Upset that Fantasmic looks like a disaster? Well, it seems that maintenance has basically been told not to fix anything that breaks or doesn't work because the show isn't long for the park. Let the WoC rumours commence.

New Fantasyland? ... Where do I even start. Maybe tomorrow or Monday. ... But while what's there looks detailed and nice (and it does), can I also state that The Port of Entry at IOA is just as detailed or more and that ET is a better ride in 2012 than Little Mermaid is? Oh, I just did.
.

Some assorted comments:

F! has always been a Studios misfit, a DL that never should've left the RoA waters in DL, for which it was made. What's the point of watching F! in a Florida amphitheatre? Like shooting off the Wishes Fireworks in the MK parking lot. It misses the point.

Port of Entry at UNI is ugly. FLE is pretty. ET is UNI being better at being Disney than Disney itself.

And you didn't miss out on the best Christmas (/Kwanzaa/Hanukkah for you PC addicts) park of all, SEA, did you?

 

[Cosmic Commando]

F! has always been a Studios misfit, a DL that never should've left the RoA waters in DL, for which it was made. What's the point of watching F! in a Florida amphitheatre? Like shooting off the Wishes Fireworks in the MK parking lot. It misses the point.

That's a little harsh. If Florida invested in the upgrades that the DL F! has steadily received instead of running the same show from the early 90's with everything broken, it would be a more than worthwhile diversion. It would never have those extra intangibles of being in the middle of the park on the RoA using the Mark Twain and Columbia, but still worthwhile. I have no desire to see the head-on-a-stick dragon again after seeing Murphy in all her glory.

 

[Mickey2minnie1]

Wow! Are you thinking this cut in hours and fast pass for resort guests only will happen by summer 2013??

 

[articos]

The good effect that cutting EMH has is that gives maintenance and SQS time to do their jobs. It also allows Entertainment time to rehearse in the parks without guests around. Same with Ops, transpo, etc. These are all net positives. We'll see if the staffing levels are increased to allow these folks to actually do the required work, though, as opposed to always being behind the eight ball.

The parks should not be open until 1a, let alone 3a, except for very special occasions, like NYE. The public got along just fine with 9-9p and 9-10p as the late close for decades. They'll get along fine with it now. I do think the prices are now way out of hand, and it's harder to come back year after year, but a 10p mid/peak close should still afford plenty of time in the parks for most average guests. If the parks are really packed, go to 11p or 12m, but that should be the exception, not the rule. We've now trained the public to expect a 12m close, and that's not good. Now, if the parks are closing at 6/7/8p, I DO think there's nothing wrong with adding EMH for an hour or two, but I don't think the company is able to manage this type of thinking any longer. Now it's either 'it works' or 'it's too messy/expensive'. No in-between.

Fantasmic should have been the show it was planned to be, which was BETTER than the RoA version, until it was value engineered into the show that was installed, and now has devolved into. The old Disney was even if you're planning on putting something new in, you maintain the current product, or you shut it down. Current Disney: the guests won't notice, run it into the ground, literally. But the sad thing is the show is popular, and that's all that matters. Something better in the amphitheater is just fine, and can't come soon enough.

 

[flynnibus]

The parks should not be open until 1a, let alone 3a, except for very special occasions, like NYE. The public got along just fine with 9-9p and 9-10p as the late close for decades

Boo to that!

The main reason I don't go in offseason is the crappy hours. Want to run reduced hours? Reduce those ticket prices too.

I don't think the parks need to be 1-3am every night.. but mixing that in is nice. When I'm at the park in the June heat... 11-12pm is a great time to be in the MK.

What blows is having parks close at 9pm and then walking around going 'now what do we do??'

 

[BigThunderMatt]

The parks should not be open until 1a, let alone 3a, except for very special occasions, like NYE. The public got along just fine with 9-9p and 9-10p as the late close for decades...but a 10p mid/peak close should still afford plenty of time in the parks for most average guests. If the parks is really packed, go to 11p or 12m, but that should be the exception, not the rule. We've now trained the public to expect a 12m close, and that's not good.

Absolutely true. Nowadays people have this perception that if the Magic Kingdom has no fireworks, no parade, and closes at 7-8 p.m., it's not worth visiting and go to another park. We close at 9 and people act like we're closing at 5, which nobody seems to bat an eye at over at DAK.

This is ultimately a move to reduce staffing costs. The idea of them bulking up maintenance staffing in direct correlation with this is laughable. I wouldn't be surprised if they used this as an excuse to start third shift earlier, therefore not requiring them to pay them the third shift premium for the entirety of their shifts, and have them be gone before first shift even gets in.

From a day-side perspective, I predict this will result in lower staffing overall, with the majority of cast being full timers in the morning and college program kids at night. Part timers will be almost non-existent, and a 40 hour work week will likely be a present for the holiday season only.

 

[Patricia Melton]

New Fantasyland? ... Where do I even start. Maybe tomorrow or Monday. ... But while what's there looks detailed and nice (and it does), can I also state that The Port of Entry at IOA is just as detailed or more and that ET is a better ride in 2012 than Little Mermaid is? Oh, I just did..

The Port of Entry is junky-looking in my opinion.

The only thing at IOA that looks good in my opinion is the Harry Potter stuff...but only if you can use your imagination to ignore the unsightly red and blue steel rollercoaster tracks that Universal was too cheap to obscure with trees, rockworks, or other thematic elements.

Because I always dreamed of visiting a Hogsmeade that had steel tracks in red and blue jutting over the rest of the scenery.

 

[Patricia Melton]

Absolutely true. Nowadays people have this perception that if the Magic Kingdom has no fireworks, no parade, and closes at 7-8 p.m., it's not worth visiting and go to another park. We close at 9 and people act like we're closing at 5, which nobody seems to bat an eye at over at DAK.

It's the year 2012.

I have a hard time understanding people who get worked up over fireworks. I think they are a waste of money and resources, to be honest. And I wonder what setting off all those explosives has been doing to the environment around the parks all these years.

Definitely not a "green" form of entertainment.

Would much rather see light shows and other things that don't set off those explosions and litter bits of paper and chemicals down to the ground every night.

 

[Patricia Melton]

The parks should not be open until 1a, let alone 3a, except for very special occasions, like NYE. The public got along just fine with 9-9p and 9-10p as the late close for decades. They'll get along fine with it now. I do think the prices are now way out of hand, and it's harder to come back year after year, but a 10p mid/peak close should still afford plenty of time in the parks for most average guests. If the parks is really packed, go to 11p or 12m, but that should be the exception, not the rule.

I think the closing time should be 11pm during the summer.

I also think that staying at a Disney resort should give you a lot of extra perks...and that you should be allowed into the park earlier than people who aren't staying in the resorts. That gives a nice incentive to stay at the resorts.

If I ran the parks, they would open at 8am for resort guests...and 9am for the general public. The closing hours would be 11pm for everyone.

The only time the parks would be open later than 11pm would be for the special hard-ticket parties at Halloween, Christmas, etc. And then they would be open until 2am...so that those parties would have a 6pm-2am time window, which would be 8 hours in the park if you bought a party ticket.

 

[John]

Boo to that!

The main reason I don't go in offseason is the crappy hours. Want to run reduced hours? Reduce those ticket prices too.

I don't think the parks need to be 1-3am every night.. but mixing that in is nice. When I'm at the park in the June heat... 11-12pm is a great time to be in the MK.

What blows is having parks close at 9pm and then walking around going 'now what do we do??'

Couldnt agree more, but isnt this yet another nod to the stroller patrol? The kiddies are then snugged in their beds by then. You know you could go visit that really cool adult entertainment place over there called PI....oooppps oh yea......maybe over there at Boardwalk....oh sorry, no trans. ahhhh there is Splittsville.So evryone head on down to Splittsville.

 

[Rosso11]

What blows is having parks close at 9pm and then walking around going 'now what do we do??'

I completely agree and is a major reason they better finally get this Downtown Disney expansion fast tracked. Otherwise a lot of people includuding myself will be leaving property every night, and we all know how much Disney hates that!

 

[Patricia Melton]

I´m intrigued by the effect of fastpass+, coupled with reduced hours, and the skewed distribution of f+ towards on-site visitors. In these alterations, on-site guests receive their magic number effortlessly. Off/site, cheap ticket guests, not so much, in fact, only insofar as capacity allows. This basically says that WDW is not at all looking to add capacity, or to draw more guests. But rather, to more efficiently exploit current WDW. They don´t need guests who don´t spend. They want them gone on behalf of the on-site, big/spending guests.

This was a very astute comment.

I think TDO (and also TDA) really wants to make it a big incentive to stay at the resorts...and would rather not have guests who are staying elsewhere. Since Disney can't stop people from staying elsewhere, they just have to up the incentive to stay in the Disney resorts.

I don't think they want more people through the turnstyles either...and would rather have less attendance in the parks if it means having the people who are there be Disney resort guests. It's s smart strategy, because getting the people who are willing to spend more in a day at the park means bigger profits for Disney...while the people who didn't want to spend as much can go to Universal. So Universal becomes the second-tier, cheaper alternative...and going to Disney and staying at the resorts becomes the coveted premium.

Here in Ohio we had a situation like this for many years with the two theme parks Cedar Point and Geauga Lake. Cedar Point was the premier park...the one that all the kids wanted to go to...but it was a further drive and cost more. Geauga Lake was junky, but was closer and cheaper. Going to Cedar Point meant you'd spend more money...but the kids would be so excited about that trip they'd almost explode. And the neighbors would be jealous that you went to Cedar Point. Telling people you went to Geauga Lake was like telling them you'd just been to Wal-Mart for the day. 'That's nice', they'd say...instead of "WOW! You went to CEDAR POINT????".
Disney is the WOW! destination where people are willing to spend a lot...whereas Universal is the place to go if you really need to nickel and dime things. I think a lot of people see it that way. Looking back on all the trips my family took when the kids were young I actually regret making some of the Geagua Lake trips because going there was never a big deal for the kids...and I wish we'd just held off and saved up and done Cedar Point. Maybe that would have been the only big thing we did as a family that year...and maybe I would have had to serve Mac & Cheese more for dinner to afford it...but I don't know if doing the cheap-o trips to Geauga Lake was the right choice to make.

The kids (now in their 30s) have never once talked about Geauga Lake trips...but a few times a year my son and daughter will find a way to talk about something with Cedar Point. That premium experience made memories that will be there the rest of their lives...so what my husband and I spent on that sure seems to have paid off for our family.

 

[jt04]

Fantasmic being replaced by a tailored version of WoC only makes sense. Which is why I have said on here for a couple years that this is what I thought would happen.

I have moved on to thinking about what happens to BatB and LM shows in the near future.

EMH will be made obsolete by NextGen tech. Meh.

Bored of this thread already.

 

[articos]

Boo to that!

The main reason I don't go in offseason is the crappy hours. Want to run reduced hours? Reduce those ticket prices too.

I don't think the parks need to be 1-3am every night.. but mixing that in is nice. When I'm at the park in the June heat... 11-12pm is a great time to be in the MK.

What blows is having parks close at 9pm and then walking around going 'now what do we do??'

Flynni, I don't disagree that the ticket prices are out of hand, but I just don't think the parks should need to be open after midnight, unless you're going to hold opening until 12n. From June-August, when it's really crowded/hot, 11p or 12m is fine, like I said, but that also doesn't have to be every night from June-August. Leave MK open til 12m two or three days a week, and close at 11p the rest of the week, especially if the park is open at 8a. That's only for peak, though. The rest of the year, be sensible with ops hours. The park doesn't need to be open til 12m every weekend, or for days in a row. There needs to be a balance of the needs of the park vs. the guest. Walking around going what to do now is a totally different issue, and I agree there does need to be more to do after hours, esp with the loss of PI. But there is still DD for what is left, plus 2 mini-golf courses, plus Boardwalk...and each of the resorts have pools and activities, etc etc...I would argue there's more to do on the property than most, although I do think they need to add to get back to the sweet spot that used to be.

Now, with that being said, as ThunderMatt said, this is purely an Ops money-saving move. If there's going to be no taking advantage of the downtime in order to get some positive results, then there's no point, and they just let the parks stay open til whenever, and the World will really go to crap.

Absolutely true. Nowadays people have this perception that if the Magic Kingdom has no fireworks, no parade, and closes at 7-8 p.m., it's not worth visiting and go to another park. We close at 9 and people act like we're closing at 5, which nobody seems to bat an eye at over at DAK.

This is ultimately a move to reduce staffing costs. The idea of them bulking up maintenance staffing in direct correlation with this is laughable. I wouldn't be surprised if they used this as an excuse to start third shift earlier, therefore not requiring them to pay them the third shift premium for the entirety of their shifts, and have them be gone before first shift even gets in.

From a day-side perspective, I predict this will result in lower staffing overall, with the majority of cast being full timers in the morning and college program kids at night. Part timers will be almost non-existent, and a 40 hour work week will likely be a present for the holiday season only.

We'll see how it plays out - I suspect you may be right, but I'm still going to hope that maintenance takes advantage of this. I'm sure they will take advantage to reduce costs as much as they can, sadly.

I think the closing time should be 11pm during the summer.

I also think that staying at a Disney resort should give you a lot of extra perks...and that you should be allowed into the park earlier than people who aren't staying in the resorts. That gives a nice incentive to stay at the resorts.

If I ran the parks, they would open at 8am for resort guests...and 9am for the general public. The closing hours would be 11pm for everyone.

The only time the parks would be open later than 11pm would be for the special hard-ticket parties at Halloween, Christmas, etc. And then they would be open until 2am...so that those parties would have a 6pm-2am time window, which would be 8 hours in the park if you bought a party ticket.

There was no way to hide Dragons with the placement of Hogsmeade. It's just too big. Once you enter, you don't see the tracks, though, just the vista of the village and Hogwarts.

I agree that staying at the resorts should give extra perks, and I have no problem with allowing people in early, and during peak times, the parks being open til 11p. I think that's reasonable. I think if a park is closing early for a party, fine, make it 6p-1a (I don't think Christmas or Halloween needs to be 2a - the parties should be priced commensurately to a 5-6 hour experience, not 8 hours in the park - they're not intended to be a full day's experience, just an extra special event). Just give day guests and hotel guests fair warning that during their stay the park will be closing early for these days, and only do the parties for a maximum of 3 days per week. With the new FP+ experiences, they are still giving the hotel guests something extra, so I understand the company's thought process, and so I'm not as worried about the loss of EMH. I do think they should split the difference - keep an extra EMH morning in each park for on-property resort guests, and give them an extra couple FP+ experiences. Best of all worlds, and the parks can still close early enough to do essential functions that have not been done for the past decade.

The bigger problem here is management is now afraid to retrain expectations. I think that needs to be addressed. If the property has time to do training and maintenance and other functions that they now don't have the time or resources to do, then that's one less excuse they can give towards NOT doing something. If the management start to care again, then it only takes one to start saying "I'm going to sign off on paying to fix this, because we can." Yes, I know this is wishful thinking, but call me an optimist.

 

[td1129]

Stopped reading when you compared FLE to port of freaking entry. Ladies and gentlemen, delusion at its very finest.