News WDW Resorts to add fees for parking

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
If you were to expand the scale of the Y axis the differences wouldn't be so glaring. I'm impressed at the consistency, though. Over a 15 year period occupancy has only varied by 15 points from the low of 76% in 2002 to the peak of 91% for 1Q17. That's amazing. But the 91% occupancy rate is certainly not sustainable. In fact, it's logistically challenged. Not to mention 1Q17 for Disney includes the major holiday period 10/1-12/31 so it's not reflective of an entire year as are the other percentages. It will be interesting to see how many of the upcoming resort expansions will stall if the economy changes direction, much like a now very popular resort sat half constructed for years.
Since I've already been quoted a few times on this thread without actually having posted here, it's probably best if I continue the trend and selectively quote myself in response. :D

Disney's hotel costs are relatively fixed. A hotel occupancy rate of (say) 70% would be a financial disaster for Disney. Even immediately after 9/11, when tourism plummeted and Disney closed hotel rooms, occupancy bottomed out at 76%. Conversely, profits soar when occupancy hits 90%. Remember, when occupancy is low, it means there are bad things going on in the economy, meaning that Disney has to offer discounts to reach (for example) that 76%. When times are good, occupancy goes up and there are fewer discounts, meaning more rooms are occupied at a higher price, which is why it's so profitable. When you consider all the factors in evaluating hotel occupancy, there really is a narrow band between financial success and failure.​

And also:

In 2010 when hotel occupancy was 82%, domestic P&R operating margin was 14.6%.

In 2016 when hotel occupancy was 89%, domestic P&R operating margin was 24.8%.

That 7% swing in occupancy was indicative of the health of Disney's Parks & Resorts segment.

Then we look at DLP, where occupancy was 75% in 2014 and operating loss was 5.1%.

HKDL had an occupancy of 79% in 2016, with an operating loss of 3.7%.​

Hotel costs are not linear with occupancy, they are relatively fixed. Once operating costs are covered, guests added beyond that represent mostly profit. There's a reason companies like Priceline exist. Hotels are looking to squeeze in a few more guests because those extra guests represent big profits, even at reduced rates.

Remember, when the WDW hotel occupancy rate was 76% in 2002, bad things were happening to the economy. Disney was offering deep discounts to get hotel occupancy to reach 76%.

When the economy is good, occupancy might be up only 15% more but, more importantly, Disney's Per Room Guest Spending (PRGS) is also up. For example, since the occupancy rate's most recent bottom of 79% in 2013, hotel occupancy now stands at 91% but PRGS is up 21.3%. Occupancy is up only 12% but PRGS is up more than 21%. It's not simply the 12% increase in occupancy that matters, it's the extra 21% each Guest is paying per night that matters. Disney's domestic Parks & Resorts operating margin was 24.8% in 2016, so a 21% increase in PRGS is hugely significant to Disney's bottom line.

For most of its first two decades, WDW consistently ran at a near-100% occupancy rate. Disney had so few hotel rooms that Guests were desperate to book whatever was available. They'd book an odd night or two in September because that was the only thing they could get.

Disney started a hotel building bonanza in 1988 with the opening of the Grand Floridian and Caribbean Beach Resort; things haven't been the same ever since.

This is also around the time Disney started significantly increasing hotel rates. Until Michael Eisner became CEO in 1984, it was possible to book a tower room at The Contemporary for today's equivalent of around $200-250/night. I promise you that if today's Contemporary rack rate averaged $225/night, it would be 100% full year-round. ;)
 
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contrariwise

Well-Known Member
I will reply to this before I place you on ignore.

First, I said countless times that it was part of the earnings call..and said that someone could probably post the "evidence".
Secondly, kind of related to my previous sentence.. the quote included below doesn't sound like I was saying it was my opinion..

but, either way, I'm glad you've finally accepted facts. It's not a bad thing to admit when you're wrong..it's a little obsessive to go on quoting and quoting and quoting someone for pages after the evidence has been presented. Even after a few others said the same as me..you continued to quote me and quote me, no matter how many times I asked you to stop. And well after the report and graphs were presented. Presented- Twice. And then presented to you for a 3rd time before you actually took a moment to stop trying to provoke an argument..and actually read something.

You will never place me on ignore as your ego won't allow it. But good luck.
 

RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
The parking situation is mainly caused by rule breakers looking to cheat the system. It just makes it worse during times when the resort is "sold out", and why those resorts limit who can park there at certain times. It is nowhere near the main cause. I blame FB and Disney fan sites for that ;)

That's nonsense, Disney fixed the park at the resorts and go to the park AP "cheating" problem some time ago by adding parking to even the lower tier APs. There may be some people who try and park at resorts with single or multi-day tickets, but it's insignificant compared to years past. I'm sure that non-resort guests using the pool is still a problem.
 
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RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
Definitely. But you agree the parking is for dining only? I don't think anyone is arguing against that

I'm all for charging people who aren't at a resort spending money to park. Parking with TiW is for dining only, sure. All I'm saying is that if they start adding parking fees to non-resort guests, anyone spending money at the resort (or just AP holders) should get their parking validated. I don't care if it's at a gift shop, QS, or TS. You can even put a minimum spend on it, and that's fine with me. I just don't want to be deterred from eating and shopping at the resorts, because I really enjoy doing that. Especially around the holidays.
 

Lets Respect

Well-Known Member
This is where I'm at. The vast majority of people at WDW have pretty basic knowledge of the resort, even if they've done some research (which, IME, many "newbies" don't do nearly as much research as they should). Knowing that they can park at a resort for free and take the monorail into the park is something I feel pretty confident in saying the vast majority of WDW guests have no clue they could even try to do, much less would do in such numbers as to make it the reason that fees would suddenly be needed.

I'm pretty confident in saying that 100% of locals know how to park at a resort and go to the parks after, even if it is after eating a meal there
 

Lets Respect

Well-Known Member
I'm all for charging people who aren't at a resort spending money to park. Parking with TiW is for dining only, sure. All I'm saying is that if they start adding parking fees to non-resort guests, anyone spending money at the resort (or just AP holders) should get their parking validated. I don't care if it's at a gift shop, QS, or TS. You can even put a minimum spend on it, and that's fine with me. I just don't want to be deterred from eating and shopping at the resorts, because I really enjoy doing that. Especially around the holidays.

You could still do it, you would just have to park at the TTC for the MK resorts. For BC and BW they are easily reached while visiting Epcot or DHS

I don't think it will get to that point though
 

RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
You could still do it, you would just have to park at the TTC for the MK resorts. For BC and BW they are easily reached while visiting Epcot or DHS

I don't think it will get to that point though

There are times I do that now, especially if I head to Poly because it's such a nice walk from TTC.
 

Bandini

Well-Known Member
Chart showing the increase has been posted twice now. @ParentsOf4 is a reliable source.

ETA: unless you have the poster that brought it out blocked. You may not be seeing it.
There is still a shell game where rooms are taken out of the vacant pool to boost occupancy numbers. If I have a 500 room resort with a 60% occupancy and I take the other 40% out of the pot. I can post a 100% occupancy rate as well.

Here's an example: The fire at that occurred at a local Orlando hotel at Christmastime. The people who occupied the rooms were weekly tenants. Disney stepped up and generously provided rooms to all of those people. If the occupancy rates had been as high as they claimed, would they have been able to do this?

Also if occupancy was as high as Disney is claiming, why would they tear down or convert hotel rooms into DVC? Wouldn't they just add DVC to existing resorts?
 

Angel Ariel

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty confident in saying that 100% of locals know how to park at a resort and go to the parks after, even if it is after eating a meal there
Of course..but locals also aren't the majority of WDW visitors the way they are in DLR. I never said there was no one who knew how to game the system that way. I just don't think it's done enough for *that* to be the main reason to add parking fees.
 

Lets Respect

Well-Known Member
Of course..but locals also aren't the majority of WDW visitors the way they are in DLR. I never said there was no one who knew how to game the system that way. I just don't think it's done enough for *that* to be the main reason to add parking fees.

I don't think so either and there are other ways they can do that. It may be one factor of many. With all of the new news/rumors about new hotels/DVCs, it may be more about that
 

contrariwise

Well-Known Member
I will reply to this before I place you on ignore.

First, I said countless times that it was part of the earnings call..and said that someone could probably post the "evidence".
Secondly, kind of related to my previous sentence.. the quote included below doesn't sound like I was saying it was my opinion..
.

You didn't. You said you thought there were all time highs and could someone please provide a link? You may have gone back and edited things now, but that's not what you originally said. You also said crowds were up because of how crowded the sidewalk felt. You say a lot of things.

If you had provided a link to start with instead of posting opinion masquerading as fact, it would have saved a bunch of time and energy. But, my bad for taking the bait. I don't know if you are for real or just get a kick out of this. I guess I am going to take others advice and assume you are just baiting people.

To others, sorry for the tangent. I won't take the bait again.
 

NearTheEars

Well-Known Member
Since I've already been quoted a few times on this thread without actually having posted here, it's probably best if I continue the trend and selectively quote myself in response. :D

Disney's hotel costs are relatively fixed. A hotel occupancy rate of (say) 70% would be a financial disaster for Disney. Even immediately after 9/11, when tourism plummeted and Disney closed hotel rooms, occupancy bottomed out at 76%. Conversely, profits soar when occupancy hits 90%. Remember, when occupancy is low, it means there are bad things going on in the economy, meaning that Disney has to offer discounts to reach (for example) that 76%. When times are good, occupancy goes up and there are fewer discounts, meaning more rooms are occupied at a higher price, which is why it's so profitable. When you consider all the factors in evaluating hotel occupancy, there really is a narrow band between financial success and failure.​

And also:

In 2010 when hotel occupancy was 82%, domestic P&R operating margin was 14.6%.

In 2016 when hotel occupancy was 89%, domestic P&R operating margin was 24.8%.

That 7% swing in occupancy was indicative of the health of Disney's Parks & Resorts segment.

Then we look at DLP, where occupancy was 75% in 2014 and operating loss was 5.1%.

HKDL had an occupancy of 79% in 2016, with an operating loss of 3.7%.​

Hotel costs are not linear with occupancy, they are relatively fixed. Once operating costs are covered, guests added beyond that represent mostly profit. There's a reason companies like Priceline exist. Hotels are looking to squeeze in a few more guests because those extra guests represent big profits, even at reduced rates.

Remember, when the WDW hotel occupancy rate was 76% in 2002, bad things were happening to the economy. Disney was offering deep discounts to get hotel occupancy to reach 76%.

When the economy is good, occupancy might be up only 15% more but, more importantly, Disney's Per Room Guest Spending (PRGS) is also up. For example, since the occupancy rate's most recent bottom of 79% in 2013, hotel occupancy now stands at 91% but PRGS is up 21.3%. Occupancy is up only 12% but PRGS is up more than 21%. It's not simply the 12% increase in occupancy that matters, it's the extra 21% each Guest is paying per night that matters. Disney's domestic Parks & Resorts operating margin was 24.8% in 2016, so a 21% increase in PRGS is hugely significant to Disney's bottom line.

For most of its first two decades, WDW consistently ran at a near-100% occupancy rate. Disney had so few hotel rooms that Guests were desperate to book whatever was available. They'd book an odd night or two in September because that was the only thing they could get.

Disney started a hotel building bonanza in 1988 with the opening of the Grand Floridian and Caribbean Beach Resort; things haven't been the same ever since.

This is also around the time Disney started significantly increasing hotel rates. Until Michael Eisner became CEO in 1984, it was possible to book a tower room at The Contemporary for today's equivalent of around $200-250/night. I promise you that if today's Contemporary rack rate averaged $225/night, it would be 100% full year-round. ;)

Sorry for getting you involved, but someone kept asking for proof, and I knew you had it, plus some insight behind the numbers. Thanks for sharing!
 

CaptainAmerica

Well-Known Member
Everytime i have gone into lots they scan band and check id...they can see dining reservations ect. If a problem is in exsistance how is it working? There are only three ways to get clearedone to go in lot right? A guest yourself. Visiting a guest and lastly dining/show reservation.
Depends on the security guard. Lots of security guards will let you in without a dining reservation, which may or may not be a legitimate reason. When I lived in Florida, lots of people would go to Sanaa for lunch without a reservation. People would also go to the Contemporary without a reservation, claim they were going to eat at The Wave, and instead park their cars to walk to Magic Kingdom. In that case, it was a lot of passholders and cast members who would have gotten free parking anyways, but they wanted to avoid the TTC.
 

RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
Depends on the security guard. Lots of security guards will let you in without a dining reservation, which may or may not be a legitimate reason. When I lived in Florida, lots of people would go to Sanaa for lunch without a reservation. People would also go to the Contemporary without a reservation, claim they were going to eat at The Wave, and instead park their cars to walk to Magic Kingdom. In that case, it was a lot of passholders and cast members who would have gotten free parking anyways, but they wanted to avoid the TTC.

I can definitely see this happening since it's such an easy walk to MK from contemporary. Parking validation would definitely solve that problem. If they park and don't go to the Contemporary, they get charged. If they park, go to a restaurant and spend enough to get validated but then leave the car there and go to MK, I think that should be OK.
 

CaptainAmerica

Well-Known Member
I can definitely see this happening since it's such an easy walk to MK from contemporary. Parking validation would definitely solve that problem. If they park and don't go to the Contemporary, they get charged. If they park, go to a restaurant and spend enough to get validated but then leave the car there and go to MK, I think that should be OK.
I agree. And if this is the kind of thing they come up with, we'll have our answer over whether this is just a "cash grab" or if it's being done for operational reasons. Parking abuse is very common at the Epcot resorts during festival time as well as monorail resorts all year round. An ideal system would continue to allow WDW resort guests to park at any WDW resort for free, while off-property guests and locals won't be able to sneak their way into free parking.
 

jakeman

Well-Known Member
...., we'll have our answer over whether this is just a "cash grab" or if it's being done for operational reasons
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