Replacement for Tomorrowland Speedway?

[EPCOTCenterLover]

No. This post fundamentally misstates the problem with guest dynamics at the Magic Kingdom. There is no such thing as a "people eating E-ticket" at the Magic Kingdom. It's impossible. Why? Because attendance is a dynamic variable, not a static one. If attendance were constant, new attractions would work exactly as the "people eaters" you're alluding to. However, history has shown that new attractions draw additional guests to the park that more than offset the new capacity, making the park actually feel more crowded. The Magic Kingdom needs three things to alleviate congestion:

1. More minor attractions that will absorb existing guests but not increase attendance at MK. High-capacity meet-and-greets, for example. Just something that gets people into a building and off of the foot paths.

2. Smarter crowd flow patterns. The pinch points in Adventureland and Fantasyland come to mind. The elimination of the nighttime parade was actually a step in the right direction in this regard. Let's hope that the replacement parade comes with a smarter route and/or alternate paths for guests to get around at parade time.

3. Major E-tickets to draw people to the other three parks.

It also needs one other thing to ease the crowding: Getting rid of Fast Pass. If it was truly designed to get people into shops and restaurants but marketed as "get to the front of the line quicker", it has accomplished it- but at a very high cost.

 

[Scuttle]

This is one of the most well thought out and stated things I have seen and is more in line with the way things could shape up. The new E draws at Studios and AK will help to bring crowds to those parks and the eventual redeesign of Epcot will be a huge help to patterns. But, the idea of just throwing multiple E rides to MK is preposterous and makes no logical sense. Redesigning TL with more mid level attractions that people will want to do to fill time between FPs for bigger attractions and balancing the park out ( TL and FL both getting much needed improvements and/or attractions) is the key. Thats why I could see Tron as an option in TL even though initially I do not think it will have the "bang" and will probably be looked down upon by some people. Noone says it has to be a coaster but something mid level everyone can enjoy. The thing they have to focus on is cleaning up the "vision" for TL and what it is, rather than a mish mash of things as it is now. Loosely tied, but, really not streamlined and focused. Great post from Captain America.

We're not factoring FP+ availability as it's here to stay for a long time. A major E would free up a lot of the issues of getting the high demand FPs. I think from that standpoint it would help immensely.

 

[deWild]

No. This post fundamentally misstates the problem with guest dynamics at the Magic Kingdom. There is no such thing as a "people eating E-ticket" at the Magic Kingdom. It's impossible. Why? Because attendance is a dynamic variable, not a static one. If attendance were constant, new attractions would work exactly as the "people eaters" you're alluding to. However, history has shown that new attractions draw additional guests to the park that more than offset the new capacity, making the park actually feel more crowded. The Magic Kingdom needs three things to alleviate congestion:

1. More minor attractions that will absorb existing guests but not increase attendance at MK. High-capacity meet-and-greets, for example. Just something that gets people into a building and off of the foot paths.

2. Smarter crowd flow patterns. The pinch points in Adventureland and Fantasyland come to mind. The elimination of the nighttime parade was actually a step in the right direction in this regard. Let's hope that the replacement parade comes with a smarter route and/or alternate paths for guests to get around at parade time.

3. Major E-tickets to draw people to the other three parks.

I like you. This is probably the most sensible and feasible "expansion" plan for the MK I've seen. It's basically an expansion without using expansion pads. As much as I hate to agree with the meet-and-greets, you're absolutely right. Just take a look at the wait times for Princess Fairytale Hall: it's almost always an hour or more. That's typically an hour and a half that people are taken off the foot paths when you include pictures, autographs, and planning what to do next. Maybe this is what should have taken the place of the McDonald's nuthouse at Dumbo?

I also agree that the crowd flow is and has been in need of desperate change. The choke point by Splash Mountain makes me want to swim across the Rivers of America while waving a certain finger. Exiting the park after the fireworks is just as awful, if not worse. The East side street that runs parallel to Main Street was a step in the right direction. I would push that idea one step further and say theme the whole damn alley: put in some shops, a restaurant, and the M&G you mentioned, and call it Cherry Tree Lane.

 

[ppete1975]

First post long time fan and reader. I don't get the hatred for the speedway. I think we have lost the idea of Disney parks (I'm going to get flamed for this). The parks are made to take your kids and for things the adults will enjoy as well instead of sitting on a park bench in a dirty park watching your kids have fun. I'm 42 and I LOVE Disney parks and Ill ride anything and giggle the whole time, it makes me feel like a kid.
But not all rides have to be ADULT or TEEN. There should be rides for kids, I remember riding this when I was a kid a good 8 years before I could drive a real car and it was the best thing ever!!! Now the cars are slow and yes loud, but that's because Ive outgrown them, I still like to watch them and Ill take a nephew and watch them have a blast but they aren't there for me... and honestly everything shouldn't have to be.
Also I read posts where people miss 20,000 leagues and Mr TOAD and our love for the run down COP. I honestly miss them too, and love COP but if they built these today we would all be flaming them "500 million dollars for plywood figures!!!!! Disney fails again" In reality we miss and love these rides because of the nostalgia and how we remember them (yes COP is still there but it has the same feel to it). The speedway to me is the same thing its iconic and I would miss it if it was gone.
As far as what they could do......
I thought as a kid there was more theming more to look at during the ride... I found it tedious when I rode it recently (remember not the target audience... as I can drive a lot faster everyday and don't have guide rails) more theming would be great
They could stay with gas and make them quieter and more efficient less smoke fumes
they could switch to electric.. I think the kids might miss the sounds as it does add to the feeling but this would be great to see

as far as an overlay... wreck it ralph would be amazing... but keep them cars no rockets no spaceships...
PLEASE NOT CARS... IT wouldn't fit there, in frontierland yes... but even then if we don't get the dca version id be say. Id rather not have a cars ride than have a bad stripped down version.

Remember this ride is for kids more than almost any ride, and kids still LOVE it. It should be updated with more theming and more efficient or electric motors... but its wonderful and needs to stay.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

There has to be diminishing returns. There are not an infinite number of available guests. With each additional attraction added new customers should be less in abundance.

Not really. Don't forget that there are multiple sources of Magic Kingdom attendance.

1. New guests who would not have otherwise visited the Walt Disney World resort.
2. Passholders and cast members who buy their admission once (or get free admission) and then visit an "unlimited" number of times.
3. Walt Disney World guests who choose to visit Magic Kingdom instead of one of the other three parks.

You're only describing #1. #2 and 3 are where you run into problems. The absolute last thing Disney wants is further imbalance between Magic Kingdom attendance and the other three parks.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

We're not factoring FP+ availability as it's here to stay for a long time. A major E would free up a lot of the issues of getting the high demand FPs. I think from that standpoint it would help immensely.

There's no issue with high demand FPs at the Magic Kingdom. I just ran availability for tomorrow, i.e. one day in advance, and literally everything is available except Mine Train.

 

[Scuttle]

I like you. This is probably the most sensible and feasible "expansion" plan for the MK I've seen. It's basically an expansion without using expansion pads. As much as I hate to agree with the meet-and-greets, you're absolutely right. Just take a look at the wait times for Princess Fairytale Hall: it's almost always an hour or more. That's typically an hour and a half that people are taken off the foot paths when you include pictures, autographs, and planning what to do next. Maybe this is what should have taken the place of the McDonald's nuthouse at Dumbo?

I also agree that the crowd flow is and has been in need of desperate change. The choke point by Splash Mountain makes me want to swim across the Rivers of America while waving a certain finger. Exiting the park after the fireworks is just as awful, if not worse. The East side street that runs parallel to Main Street was a step in the right direction. I would push that idea one step further and say theme the whole damn alley: put in some shops, a restaurant, and the M&G you mentioned, and call it Cherry Tree Lane.

Good call on Splash choke point. I always take the dock to avoid as much as possible.

The Main Street alley... I agree go all out. Not sure a restaurant would work but shops, maybe a M&G off to the side and a back entrance to a to-go only Starbucks counter would work.

 

[Scuttle]

There's no issue with high demand FPs at the Magic Kingdom. I just ran availability for tomorrow, i.e. one day in advance, and literally everything is available except Mine Train.

I had issues with Space and Mine Train. We aren't even into the heart of sprinf break yet.

 

[rushtest4echo]

I had issues with Space and Mine Train. We aren't even into the heart of sprinf break yet.

Just remember to keep in mind- not everyone gets to ride those rides whether they use standby or fastpass. Space Mountain is a relatively high-throughput coaster if you factor both sides in, and it still only accommodates around 2200 riders per hour times the amount of hours MK is open, so typically 13 or 14 hours- which translates to a total of approx. 30,000 people a day being able to ride it. That's less than half the park's visitors on a busy day.

Seven Dwarfs is obviously way worse. The real capacity of that thing is way lower than the theoretical 1600, it's really closer to 1000. So in that case, less than 15,000 riders per day which means only 1/4 of the park can ride it on a busy day. So yes, fastpasses will obviously be quite limited for Seven Dwarfs, and to some extent for Space Mountain.

 

[21stamps]

If Disney made Tron work in Disneyland Shanghai, I am sure they could do it in MK. However, MK is one of a kind, because it is a part of Disney World. Each park has its own identity in my opinion. Disneyland Shanghai has no choice but to find a way to fit everything in one parks, because that is all they have. MK is different.

In my opinion, MK is the park for families to ride things together, younger children included. Even the highest height requirements my 2nd grader can meet. HS is the theme park that seems to try to appeal to some of the older crowd along with Epcot. When my husband and I went to WDW alone for our honeymoon, we didn't even spend a full day in MK. Now with two young children, we spend two days there.

Now like I said, I'm not saying that Tron can't work there. It probably could, but I don't think it will help lines.

Yep, my kid during his second week of kindergarten was tall enough for every ride at MK. I'd hate to see that change for families.
I don't know of anywhere else quite like that.

 

[marni1971]

. Noone says it has to be a coaster but something mid level everyone can enjoy.

That is an option being looked at as well as a coaster.

 

[21stamps]

First post long time fan and reader. I don't get the hatred for the speedway. I think we have lost the idea of Disney parks (I'm going to get flamed for this). The parks are made to take your kids and for things the adults will enjoy as well instead of sitting on a park bench in a dirty park watching your kids have fun. I'm 42 and I LOVE Disney parks and Ill ride anything and giggle the whole time, it makes me feel like a kid.
But not all rides have to be ADULT or TEEN. There should be rides for kids, I remember riding this when I was a kid a good 8 years before I could drive a real car and it was the best thing ever!!! Now the cars are slow and yes loud, but that's because Ive outgrown them, I still like to watch them and Ill take a nephew and watch them have a blast but they aren't there for me... and honestly everything shouldn't have to be.
Also I read posts where people miss 20,000 leagues and Mr TOAD and our love for the run down COP. I honestly miss them too, and love COP but if they built these today we would all be flaming them "500 million dollars for plywood figures!!!!! Disney fails again" In reality we miss and love these rides because of the nostalgia and how we remember them (yes COP is still there but it has the same feel to it). The speedway to me is the same thing its iconic and I would miss it if it was gone.
As far as what they could do......
I thought as a kid there was more theming more to look at during the ride... I found it tedious when I rode it recently (remember not the target audience... as I can drive a lot faster everyday and don't have guide rails) more theming would be great
They could stay with gas and make them quieter and more efficient less smoke fumes
they could switch to electric.. I think the kids might miss the sounds as it does add to the feeling but this would be great to see

as far as an overlay... wreck it ralph would be amazing... but keep them cars no rockets no spaceships...
PLEASE NOT CARS... IT wouldn't fit there, in frontierland yes... but even then if we don't get the dca version id be say. Id rather not have a cars ride than have a bad stripped down version.

Remember this ride is for kids more than almost any ride, and kids still LOVE it. It should be updated with more theming and more efficient or electric motors... but its wonderful and needs to stay.

I love everything about this post. Strongly agree.
Well said.

 

[marni1971]

First post long time fan and reader. I don't get the hatred for the speedway. I think we have lost the idea of Disney parks (I'm going to get flamed for this). The parks are made to take your kids and for things the adults will enjoy as well instead of sitting on a park bench in a dirty park watching your kids have fun. I'm 42 and I LOVE Disney parks and Ill ride anything and giggle the whole time, it makes me feel like a kid.
But not all rides have to be ADULT or TEEN. There should be rides for kids, I remember riding this when I was a kid a good 8 years before I could drive a real car and it was the best thing ever!!! Now the cars are slow and yes loud, but that's because Ive outgrown them, I still like to watch them and Ill take a nephew and watch them have a blast but they aren't there for me... and honestly everything shouldn't have to be.
Also I read posts where people miss 20,000 leagues and Mr TOAD and our love for the run down COP. I honestly miss them too, and love COP but if they built these today we would all be flaming them "500 million dollars for plywood figures!!!!! Disney fails again" In reality we miss and love these rides because of the nostalgia and how we remember them (yes COP is still there but it has the same feel to it). The speedway to me is the same thing its iconic and I would miss it if it was gone.
As far as what they could do......
I thought as a kid there was more theming more to look at during the ride... I found it tedious when I rode it recently (remember not the target audience... as I can drive a lot faster everyday and don't have guide rails) more theming would be great
They could stay with gas and make them quieter and more efficient less smoke fumes
they could switch to electric.. I think the kids might miss the sounds as it does add to the feeling but this would be great to see

as far as an overlay... wreck it ralph would be amazing... but keep them cars no rockets no spaceships...
PLEASE NOT CARS... IT wouldn't fit there, in frontierland yes... but even then if we don't get the dca version id be say. Id rather not have a cars ride than have a bad stripped down version.

Remember this ride is for kids more than almost any ride, and kids still LOVE it. It should be updated with more theming and more efficient or electric motors... but its wonderful and needs to stay.

An autopia style attraction could stay on the plot. Just not the dirty, smelly, noisy and bland attraction we have today.

 

[Daveeeeed]

So, it seems that your argument is that a new thrilling headliner is what MK needs to address the long lines. But, won't that just attract more people to an already overcrowded park? And, a thrilling headliner won't address the long lines at the non-thrill rides which tend to have a lot of riders who won't meet the height requirements of a coaster.

I don't know... there have been a LOT of discussions about how to address the overcrowding of MK, including arguments like the above that new high-capacity attractions are needed to eat the crowds. I don't see a coaster/thrill ride as the answer, as it has a limited set of riders, and could possibly attract more thrill-seeking crowds with a limited set of rides that appeal to that demographic. That could just result in longer lines at the other thrill rides. As other have stated in the past, MK could benefit from a high-capacity attraction. But, IMHO, that should not be a thrill-ride/coaster. MK needs crowd-eating attractions that have no rider restrictions, to really be able to address the lines at all of the attractions in the park.

Plus, MK is not a thrill ride park. There are plenty of parks that are more thrill-ride oriented. I don't see that WDW needs to compete with those. That gets to the discussion of Theme Park vs Amusement Park.

Bringing this reply back on topic... A high-capacity replacement for the speedway might be a good solution.

amusement park vs. theme park discussion... it's the fact that the most popular park in the world doesn't even have a world class themed thrill ride.

Theme parks have the full spectrum except with theme -- there is no defending that. Also the fact how the most popular park in the world doesn't have a ride that so many park goers would love is ludacris.

I agree that the best thing would be a high capacity attraction (even something like Indy), but the height requirement logic is silly since less people can ride it yet they almost always have higher waits as they usually are the best themed. It's long overdue... as in decades.

But in the meantime, the most important thing is that the park gets a super-headliner. I'm talking about Indy, JTTCOTE, Splash, Shanghai/Paris/Disneyland Potc, Tower of Terror, Radiator Springs Racers, Spider-Man, Forbidden Journey. Fun fact... all of those but Pirates has a height requirement. The main thing that deters Is the fact that a coaster is a Coaster, so by having a thrill/dark ride hybrid like all of the ones mentioned many people that dislike coasters will still ride. It's the ones with little kids that won't.

What if we get Beauty & The Beast in Fantasyland (no height requirement) & a Wall-e 40" height requirement attraction. And in the meantime fix Space Mountain. That would work and neither would have to be epic scale attractions... just e-tickets.

Maybe a Coaster is not the best idea right now if they want to bring the Coaster people to Hollywood Studios, but the fact that MK hasn't gotten an E-ticket in over 20 years is a disgrace. So perhaps a high capacity E-ticket dark ride would work. And people will say "oh more people will go" but it HAS to happen. There has to be another E-ticket to at least improve MK's outdated lineup, and while it is strong compared to the other WDW parks, IOA has less than half the attendance with far lower waits, but has great rides.

They need to add a new E-ticket (maybe not a headliner, but at least an E-ticket) and don't really market it much and instead more word of mouth, or open it alongside a new EPCOT attraction.

Just to use common sense.

 

[Gabe1]

There's FAILING Jim Hill again WITH HIS FALLING RATINGS and his FAKE NEWS. Sad!

No Tron, no how. We have the BEST people working on Tomorrowland. Just terrific. You are going to love Tomorrowland in 2021. Believe me.

In all honesty, they considered it and said no.

Ha! Jim was the first person to speak to Pops abandoned Legendary Years being resurrected and turned into a value of suites resort. The fans did the same as this Failing Jim. And yet nobody acknowledged that.

You can't be wrong if all you can offer up is Best People and your going to love 2021. Hardly going out on a limb of real knowledge.

 

[21stamps]

It's not an

amusement park vs. theme park discussion... it's the fact that the most popular park in the world doesn't even have a world class themed thrill ride.

Theme parks have the full spectrum except with theme -- there is no defending that. Also the fact how the most popular park in the world doesn't have a ride that so many park goers would love is ludacris.

I agree that the best thing would be a high capacity attraction (even something like Indy), but the height requirement logic is silly since less people can ride it yet they almost always have higher waits as they usually are the best themed. It's long overdue... as in decades.

But in the meantime, the most important thing is that the park gets a super-headliner. I'm talking about Indy, JTTCOTE, Splash, Shanghai/Paris/Disneyland Potc, Tower of Terror, Radiator Springs Racers, Spider-Man, Forbidden Journey. Fun fact... all of those but Pirates has a height requirement. The main thing that deters Is the fact that a coaster is a Coaster, so by having a thrill/dark ride hybrid like all of the ones mentioned many people that dislike coasters will still ride. It's the ones with little kids that won't.

What if we get Beauty & The Beast in Fantasyland (no height requirement) & a Wall-e 40" height requirement attraction. And in the meantime fix Space Mountain. That would work and neither would have to be epic scale attractions... just e-tickets.

The problem is, "..the ones with little kids" are the majority of the people at MK.

MK is not a thrill park. We have those all over this country, including Orlando. The Magic Kingdom is so different, and special, because it appeals to all. There's a "magic" about it that can't compare to any thrill ride or thrill park.
That is why the people with season passes to Cedar Fair or Six Flags parks still spend thousands of dollars to visit Disney World.

 

[PatInCT]

This is a great thread to read... I've been to WDW probably closing in on 20x (first in 1973 when I was 12). We would usually go 4-5 days a visit before kids and when our kids were little (now they are 18 and 19). Was on the space coast last week and went for a day (definitely not the best time of year for a quick visit). My $.02...
- Tomorrowland Speedway badly needs a refresh and the idea of an electric and more futuristic looking car would be great. How about some of that self-driving technology that's on the road right now. Let the drivers change lanes (if google can have cars driving on regular streets and well mapped and regulated track should be doable). The attraction is still popular and probably more so if you can get rid of the fumes.
- I haven't been on COP for years and even when it's open seasonally it seems like nobody really goes on it. Can't something else go there?
- last week was crowded, we got our FP+ the morning we went (spur of the moment trip on a cool day and went to EPCOT during the day) and got decent ones for that night (Pirates, Buzz and HM). Unfortunately aside from that we weren't able to get on any other attractions due to wait times. Stitch closed at 6p even though all the other attractions had waits of 50-120 minutes (make sense of that for me). There really wasn't time to wait in line for anything decent w/o risking missing our FP window.

Completely agree that right now MK seems to have even more appeal relative to the other parks (maybe Avatar will help that). EPCOT Innoventions West if closed, nobody wants to go on Ellen's Energy Adventure (which I'm good with but it's too long). I like DHS and attractions like Indiana Jones do suck up the crowds and don't have the long wait... I don't know if something like that would suit MK though?

 

[larandtra]

MK is not "other" parks and based on attendance doesnt need to have some mega huge ride super coaster to draw guests. The problem at MK is not attendance. Its dispersing the guests more evenly through the park so as to make the bottle necks less frequent. This is better served with 3 or 4 mid level attractions, redesign of TL, linking FL/LS from HM to BTMRR, and creating more space and some crowd eater attractions that will level out the park and balance things. The other three parks being improved will also help these situations. And as far as FP goes, if you use it right, it works very well and there are always FPs available for most attractions even the day before you go if you are willing to be flexible. It accomplishes ( for the most part) what it is supposed to accomplish. The only issue I have ever seen it create is at JC because it can be really bad over there. And Marni, yeah, it doesnt have to be a coaster, in fact I dont expect it will be. But, we agree, that Speedway has to go. It served its time but it wont fit in any of the new ideas for the reimagine of TL.

 

[radiohost]

Highlight of our trip was my 3 year old bouncing with excitement in the drivers seat being able to "drive" a car with his daddy by his side whose foot was on the pedal.

No go-kart track allows 3 years olds to drive. Again, as I said in another thread, this is a unique attraction that makes Disney World unique.

Leave it alone.

 

[21stamps]

Highlight of our trip was my 3 year old bouncing with excitement in the drivers seat being able to "drive" a car with his daddy by his side whose foot was on the pedal.

No go-kart track allows 3 years olds to drive. Again, as I said in another thread, this is a unique attraction that makes Disney World unique.

Leave it alone.

I think this is so important. We have multiple go cart places/indoor entertainment where we live. My kiddo is 6, most don't even allow him to ride right now, none allow him to drive.

Having your foot on the pedal while your child is driving horribly, and you're both laughing until your belly aches, is the "perfect" idea of why the MK exists in the first place.