DisneyFan18
Well-Known Member
Do you guys think, that originally proposed attraction of BATB for the France Pavillion, could replace Enchanted Tales with Belle, so we would finally get another proper Dark Ride in MK?
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News Remy's Ratatouille Adventure coming to Epcot
- Thread starter wdwmagic
- Start date
WDWFREAK53
Well-Known Member
Let me add my $.02 here (which will be an unpopular opinion).
First off...if Epcot was still the E.P.C.O.T. Center from 1982, it would be vacant aside from a few hangers-on.
Let's look at the lineup. Universe of Energy. A 45 minute slow-moving theater ride whose payoff was dinosaurs. Imagine that today? I'm not even talking about the even-worse Ellen's Energy Adventure. Since, in 1982, Wonders of Life wasn't around, we can skip that. Move on to Horizons (which, back then, was my 2nd favorite Epcot attraction). A slow-moving omnimover with a "choose-your-own-ending." This was unique...and may still be a draw today. Then you have World of Motion. A slow-moving omnimover showcasing that history of transportation leading up to the possibilities of tomorrow. Spaceship Earth...a slow-moving omnimover showcasing the history of communication leading up to the possibilities of tomorrow... The Land...a slow-moving boat ride with a few animatronics, sets, and then through a greenhouse. The Living Seas...an aquarium with a cool setting (SeaBase Alpha was a really cool "setting" but the ride was so short that it was pointless.) Imagination...my number 1 attraction at EPCOT Center. Sure, it was a slow-moving ride but the visuals, the feeling, the "imagination" put into it is something that will always be remembered...and pair that with the needle-tables, rainbow tunnel, etc. and you have a truly special and unique area. Smack dab in the middle of Future World was Communicore...cool...but would it work today?
Moving into World Showcase you have a slow-moving boat ride, the American Adventure, and a handful of movies as attractions. (Mind you, we still have all of those...plus another boat ride)
Now, let's be honest...even if you were to take those exact rides and update them with today's technology but leaving the feel and similar ride systems, do you really think people would be clamoring to visit Epcot? People need some "BAM" attractions to get them through the gates. When I first saw Spaceship Earth as a kid...I thought, "WHOA...I can't wait to go in there and ride it!" When I boarded and you start up the dark incline...I thought it was going to be awesome, only to get to the top and realize it's a slow-moving omnimover ride. Do I like it? Of course...but as a kid, I was disappointed.
Universe of Energy has an amazing building but is pretty boring. In today's world, people don't want to commit to a 45-minute attraction (especially if they will only visit once in their lifetime). I'm a big fan of attraction times being longer but 45 minutes is a little much IMO. Even a 45-minute Splash Mountain would turn me away. Do I think Guardians of the Galaxy is the answer? NOPE! They could've really put their heads together and developed an attraction based on Energy and Energy conservation just as easy as they can shove Guardians of the Galaxy in there (and I love the Guardians of the Galaxy!). GotG is a pure head-scratcher to me...but I'm holding out some hope that they do tie it in with Energy and the original feel of EPCOT. This is a case of just using the name as a draw to get people in...not necessarily the attraction itself.
Mission:Space is a failure. Updating Horizons with today's technology and maybe adding to the idea of "choosing your own ending" would've been a better option. The idea was sound, the final product wasn't.
You hear of an attraction called "World of Motion" and you get the feeling that it should be thrilling. Nope. This was the perfect place to revamp and add a thrill ride. I prefer Test Track over World of Motion. It's a thrill ride that's not too thrilling and most people can ride it without issue. (Sounds like an idea Walt would've liked).
The Living Seas should've been where a cool submarine ride went (not a thrill necessarily). Hopping on an omnimover and going through a tunnel is pretty "unimaginative." Adding Nemo to this one doesn't bother me. While I liked SeaBase Alpha, EPCOT was about edutainment and kids love the Nemo characters. The Nemo characters are there to get the kids interested and make learning about the sea-life fun. This might not be the best "update" but I don't mind it at all...and the ride is much better now IMO.
The Land, now, still has the Living with the Land attraction but added a non-IP "thrill" ride which focuses on the world we live in. Seems like a perfect pavilion in its current state. Food, thrill ride, movie attraction, family ride, and you can learn while having fun...it checks off every box.
Imagination is a mess. Personally, I feel this is the attraction they need to address the most...along with the ending to SSE...
World Showcase still has the boat ride in Mexico...although IP based (and if COCO comes in, it'll fit even better), Frozen Ever After as a single attraction is lightyears better than Maelstrom...but it's put in the wrong spot. It doesn't do anything for Norway aside from get people to visit the pavilion to go on the ride and meet the sisters. Norway has just turned into a Princess Mecca which is pretty sad.
Rat will be a great addition...it fits with the theme of the pavilion, it's truly an ADDITION and nothing that is currently there will be removed, and will hopefully pave the way for more additions to other countries. This is the way to add an IP without just shoehorning it in. (Much like a Brother Bear inspired Raft Ride down the mountains would fit into Canada, eh.)
First off...if Epcot was still the E.P.C.O.T. Center from 1982, it would be vacant aside from a few hangers-on.
Let's look at the lineup. Universe of Energy. A 45 minute slow-moving theater ride whose payoff was dinosaurs. Imagine that today? I'm not even talking about the even-worse Ellen's Energy Adventure. Since, in 1982, Wonders of Life wasn't around, we can skip that. Move on to Horizons (which, back then, was my 2nd favorite Epcot attraction). A slow-moving omnimover with a "choose-your-own-ending." This was unique...and may still be a draw today. Then you have World of Motion. A slow-moving omnimover showcasing that history of transportation leading up to the possibilities of tomorrow. Spaceship Earth...a slow-moving omnimover showcasing the history of communication leading up to the possibilities of tomorrow... The Land...a slow-moving boat ride with a few animatronics, sets, and then through a greenhouse. The Living Seas...an aquarium with a cool setting (SeaBase Alpha was a really cool "setting" but the ride was so short that it was pointless.) Imagination...my number 1 attraction at EPCOT Center. Sure, it was a slow-moving ride but the visuals, the feeling, the "imagination" put into it is something that will always be remembered...and pair that with the needle-tables, rainbow tunnel, etc. and you have a truly special and unique area. Smack dab in the middle of Future World was Communicore...cool...but would it work today?
Moving into World Showcase you have a slow-moving boat ride, the American Adventure, and a handful of movies as attractions. (Mind you, we still have all of those...plus another boat ride)
Now, let's be honest...even if you were to take those exact rides and update them with today's technology but leaving the feel and similar ride systems, do you really think people would be clamoring to visit Epcot? People need some "BAM" attractions to get them through the gates. When I first saw Spaceship Earth as a kid...I thought, "WHOA...I can't wait to go in there and ride it!" When I boarded and you start up the dark incline...I thought it was going to be awesome, only to get to the top and realize it's a slow-moving omnimover ride. Do I like it? Of course...but as a kid, I was disappointed.
Universe of Energy has an amazing building but is pretty boring. In today's world, people don't want to commit to a 45-minute attraction (especially if they will only visit once in their lifetime). I'm a big fan of attraction times being longer but 45 minutes is a little much IMO. Even a 45-minute Splash Mountain would turn me away. Do I think Guardians of the Galaxy is the answer? NOPE! They could've really put their heads together and developed an attraction based on Energy and Energy conservation just as easy as they can shove Guardians of the Galaxy in there (and I love the Guardians of the Galaxy!). GotG is a pure head-scratcher to me...but I'm holding out some hope that they do tie it in with Energy and the original feel of EPCOT. This is a case of just using the name as a draw to get people in...not necessarily the attraction itself.
Mission:Space is a failure. Updating Horizons with today's technology and maybe adding to the idea of "choosing your own ending" would've been a better option. The idea was sound, the final product wasn't.
You hear of an attraction called "World of Motion" and you get the feeling that it should be thrilling. Nope. This was the perfect place to revamp and add a thrill ride. I prefer Test Track over World of Motion. It's a thrill ride that's not too thrilling and most people can ride it without issue. (Sounds like an idea Walt would've liked).
The Living Seas should've been where a cool submarine ride went (not a thrill necessarily). Hopping on an omnimover and going through a tunnel is pretty "unimaginative." Adding Nemo to this one doesn't bother me. While I liked SeaBase Alpha, EPCOT was about edutainment and kids love the Nemo characters. The Nemo characters are there to get the kids interested and make learning about the sea-life fun. This might not be the best "update" but I don't mind it at all...and the ride is much better now IMO.
The Land, now, still has the Living with the Land attraction but added a non-IP "thrill" ride which focuses on the world we live in. Seems like a perfect pavilion in its current state. Food, thrill ride, movie attraction, family ride, and you can learn while having fun...it checks off every box.
Imagination is a mess. Personally, I feel this is the attraction they need to address the most...along with the ending to SSE...
World Showcase still has the boat ride in Mexico...although IP based (and if COCO comes in, it'll fit even better), Frozen Ever After as a single attraction is lightyears better than Maelstrom...but it's put in the wrong spot. It doesn't do anything for Norway aside from get people to visit the pavilion to go on the ride and meet the sisters. Norway has just turned into a Princess Mecca which is pretty sad.
Rat will be a great addition...it fits with the theme of the pavilion, it's truly an ADDITION and nothing that is currently there will be removed, and will hopefully pave the way for more additions to other countries. This is the way to add an IP without just shoehorning it in. (Much like a Brother Bear inspired Raft Ride down the mountains would fit into Canada, eh.)
No one says EPCOT Center should not have changed since 1982. Aside from the odd nut job. But change should be for the better with improvement.
For the rest, you're welcome to your $0.02 of course.
WDWFREAK53
Well-Known Member
Oh I get that...but when people complain about IP's being used in Epcot, I get the feeling that they don't think that certain IPs could actually be used and still keep the idea of EPCOT Center. Nemo, while not a great attraction and a step down (imaginatively) from SeaBase Alpha, gets kids engaged and excited to be in there. Could it have been done differently? Sure, but so could the original attractions at EPCOT. I'm just saying, IPs in Epcot isn't always the death of the idea of EPCOT Center. Frozen hurts that idea...but Rat doesn't. GotG feels like it hurts it...but we'll have to wait and see (And I'm sure you know more than we do about that
).If they added a Mulan attraction which focused on the war with the Huns...it's teaching you while using the character as a recognizable figure for kids. When I think of MK 2.0, I think of "Synopsis Rides" which just tell you the story of the movie (like Frozen Ever After).
Adding a Mary Poppins attraction where she takes us on a Jolly Holiday around London or even adding Cherry Tree Lane won't hurt it. TBH, the idea of Mission:Space seems to fit with the original idea of EPCOT Center but the execution turned out wrong.
I think most are in agreement that we want the idea of EPCOT Center back...but I don't think the "invasion of IPs" necessarily means that the idea will die.
rle4lunch
Well-Known Member
LOTS of very valid points in this.. I've come to the realization that I'll never have the EPCOT of 1982, 1984, 1986 again, so the memories from my childhood will have to be just that, memories. I can only hope that when my 2 1/4 year old son is 5/8/10 years old (respectively to my youth EPCOT trips) that he will feel the wonder and excitement that EPCOT and WDW/DL had for me. Will it be the same?
I kinda understand the problem. Technology is moving soooo much faster than we can imagine now. In the 80's, seeing a videophone or a vacuum tube transport or Jetson style car WAS the future. We're so far past that stuff nowadays... How does a company, even one as great and powerful as Disney, capture what technology will look like in 20-30-50-100 years from now??? Personally, I don't think they can.
Which, brings me to a sad conclusion. Disney has to do something with Epcot, right? They can't keep up with the future, but they can keep up with kids imaginations. How you ask? Through the movies and shows that Disney produces and the kids consume. Kids are putting their imaginations to work with thinking they are space rangers or pirates or princesses or whatever.. And whether we want to believe it or not, Disney is predominantly for 5-12 year olds. Sure, they do an excellent job creating a family destination and attractions that adults love too, but let's not kid (see what I did there?) ourselves, the parks are made for the little ones.
Jenny72
Well-Known Member
You're right -- that sort of sums up the sad conclusion that IPs represent to me in the parks. It's about getting kids to "consume" movies. I felt like when I was a kid, Epcot was meant to expand your world and your imagination. Now Disney constrains it by limiting it to 1.5 hour stories that are packaged for consumption and merchandising. I still don't believe this is the only way to do it in order to keep up with a changing world. But it takes more imagination, ironically, to do it without IPs.
rle4lunch
Well-Known Member
I have no problem with "IP's" in the park. I've discussed this ad-nauseum in the past. Every single thing that Disney produces original or through buying someone out is an IP. Splash mountain, IP, Big Thunder, IP. Alice in Wonderland, IP. All of it. Eventually, if something is popular enough and has the 'legs' to continue to be a revenue stream, it's an IP. Speedway is an IP.
The real question/concern is actually what they DO with the IP (either original or bought from outside source), and whether or not they can make it a 'magical' Disney experience.
Casper Gutman
Well-Known Member
As Marni said, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I think almost everything you say here is wrong. My first comment is subjective - when I was a kid, I would have rather ridden any of EPCOT's omnis a dozen times rather then ride a coaster twice. I really can't imagine being disappointed SSE didn't go fast. Going up into that dark ascent, the show scenes, the mastery of the dark ride form - are so much more thrilling then a coaster. There are all different kinds of thrills - scale and sophistication appealed to me more than speed and violence.
You seem to be drawing on two very familiar assumptions about "today's youth." First is that they want short rides. I don't buy this for a second. At least since WWII, we've been talking about the shorter attention span of modern youth. Remember the MTV generation? It's "commonsense" nonsense that is rarely backed up with research or critical thought. The people who want shorter rides are the WDW execs, and they use vague hand-waving about "attention spans" to cover for their desire to get people into shops and restaurants.
Your second assumption is that people need thrills. This ignores the entire history of Disney's parks, of course. Disney's reputation was built on Pirates and Haunted Mansion. The most thrilling "classic" attractions were BTM, which is far more about theming then thrills, and Space Mountain. But now, suddenly, after five decades, Disney's parks need to be thrill driven? Nope. Again, it''s a line perpetuated by executives to cover their actual intentions. Thrills are cheap. A coaster, even an enclosed one with cardboard cutouts should (and we all know about WDI's budgeting) cost a lot less than, say, a ride with the artistry, uniqueness, and wit of WoM. And they're short - see point one. Disney has never sold itself on physical "thrills" - it offers other types of thrills which aren't found elsewhere. If WDW thinks it can win on coasters, it will lose. When did we decide Six Flags was the model for which WDW should strive?
Your final assumption is that IPs only go one way. We know from Pirates that that's not true. The important thing about modern IPs is that they are synergistically promoted and, often, narratively intertwined across multiple media. The idea that they can only start in film in TV is the product of executives who don't fully grasp the concept. Horizons could have been replaced with a new, park specific IP that was then leveraged across multiple platforms. I really don't have a problem with the use of pre-existing IPs in the park, but, like "thrills," they have become a crutch, a replacement for innovation.
And as to keeping things technologically updated - yes, EPCOT needs updates. But does Rat - a series of flat screens on a track (yes, trackless, but it's not used meaningfully in the ride), really seem more technologically advanced then the AAs EPCOT used to feature? Screens are a commonplace - they define our everyday existence. And movies are a LOT older than the AA-filled rides of EPCOT past.
All of this, however, skirts the main point. Disney has never replaced an older EPCOT ride with a better one. Never. (I'm willing to grant Nemo as a small upgrade, but many aren't). And it's not close - Horizons, WoM, Imagination - all were HUGE downgrades. There is absolutely no reason to give WDW even a sliver of the benefit of the doubt when it comes to EPCOT. There track record is staggeringly terrible.
Jenny72
Well-Known Member
Technically true, yes, but I think you must realize that I'm not referring to Speedway as an IP. Not using "IP" in the technical sense but to refer to movies -- always movies -- that are advertised in the park via various rides.
I agree (as we all do) that the point is to create magical experiences, and whether there's an IP or not is not the main issue. But I still feel that forcing all these rides to advertise for various movies degrades from what used to be a cosmopolitan and enlightening feel in the park. To be honest, I don't like to feel like my kids are just consumers waiting to be sucked in when they come into the parks. And they haven't seen half these movies, anyway (including Ratatouille, Mulan, Brave, Big Hero 6, etc.).
(And my kids love the omnimovers. My son says he likes them because "they're comfortable." I think he likes the cozy feeling he gets on LwtL and SSE.)
I agree (as we all do) that the point is to create magical experiences, and whether there's an IP or not is not the main issue. But I still feel that forcing all these rides to advertise for various movies degrades from what used to be a cosmopolitan and enlightening feel in the park. To be honest, I don't like to feel like my kids are just consumers waiting to be sucked in when they come into the parks. And they haven't seen half these movies, anyway (including Ratatouille, Mulan, Brave, Big Hero 6, etc.).
(And my kids love the omnimovers. My son says he likes them because "they're comfortable." I think he likes the cozy feeling he gets on LwtL and SSE.)
rle4lunch
Well-Known Member
I understand what you're saying and agree for the most part. I look at the other way though a bit. My 2 year old son is really into Pooh (this week, lol). About a year ago he was watching Disney jr with pooh and friends and started singing the 'think think think' song. we took him to WDW last December and he was SO excited to meetngreet pooh and friends and to do the ride. This week, we introduced the movie to him (1977 movie, the only good Pooh movie), and it's only enhancing his enjoyment of Pooh and the Pooh based "IP".
He also loved Mr Toad's wild ride in DL and luigi's dancing cars and maters jamboree, before we saw the Cars movies. Now he's seen them as well, and is attached more. So I think it's all about perspective on the attraction. Some people that ride them may have never heard/seen them before and it's introducing them to something they might get hooked on. I dunno, it's a complex thing. To poo-poo (not to be confused with pooh-pooh, lol) Disney in a blanket "non IP" statement is doing them an injustice.
Now, do they need to create more NEW things? Always. They don't get a pass on that one. But the new IP push is a needed 'stop-gap' in the interim.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
There is no stopgap. It’s franchises or nothing. That’s the mandate.
rle4lunch
Well-Known Member
for now.
MrHappy
Well-Known Member
Where did you hear this? I only saw the rendering shown at D23, and I don't believe the insiders here have expanded on any thrill or thematic detail. At this moment in time, sure, GOTG seems like an odd fit (and offends the EPCOT purist), not necessarily bc it's an IP or Marvel, but the link to Energy. But, not having a time machine and experiencing the completed GOTG ride, I can't say. I'd have to believe there will be a story line with a clear link to Energy.
WDWFREAK53
Well-Known Member
I didn't say that I was disappointed that it didn't go fast. I actually stated that I liked SSE. I simply said that seeing the amazing structure, boarding the ride...and ascending the dark tunnel led me to believe that it was going to be a fast, fun, thrill ride..and I was disappointed when I got to the top and realized it wasn't. The attraction itself didn't disappoint me, the build-up in my own head disappointed me because I was expecting something fast and thrilling...and got slow and learning. Some of my earliest memories are the smell of "The Dark Ages" and Michaelangelo painting.
A 45-minute slow-moving attraction isn't going to cut it in today's world. You can say it will until you're blue in the face but there's a reason why it hasn't been duplicated. Did it work in 1982? Sure. Will it work today? Doubt it. Even back then, when my family would visit, if there was an attraction to skip, it was UoE due to its length.
Do Disney parks need to be thrill driven? I never said that. I said that you need some thrills. When you hear of people coming back from WDW and talking about their trip, do they talk about how great The Jungle Cruise is or how awesome Tower of Terror is? A mix of everything is needed in this day and age. It's called "balance." You just said it, Space Mountain. It never became a popular attraction because you saw a starfield and were in the dark...it became popular because it was a fun thrilling attraction.
Again, read my post and what my favorite attraction in EPCOT was...Imagination. Figment and Dreamfinder are awesome, but, like I said, they are characters used to convey the message. How is it any different than having current characters that are already well-known do it? By what you're saying, they could've had an updated Horizons with a character specifically designed for Horizons and cross-promoted it on TV, Film, Books, etc...but doing so with a pre-existing character and cross-promoting that character back with the attraction is a "crutch." I'm saying, if a pre-existing character fits the idea of the attraction, use it...if you're just shoehorning a character in to have "the name," then it's wrong.
Rat fits the theme of the pavilion. It utilizes an existing IP to fit seamlessly into an existing pavilion. It's not replacing something from "old EPCOT Center" and will be a fun addition to the park. If you don't like it, Impressions de France will have plenty of seats available for you while you wait for your party to get off. The charm of France will still be there for you...and an additional attraction will be available as well.
Rat isn't a replacement...it's an add.
To be honest, I prefered the Jeremy Irons version of SSE over the Walter Kronkite version (don't remember the original before WK). The Living Seas (as an area) was better as SeaBase Alpha but the current version with Nemo and Turtle Talk is better now (IMO...but I could see how others would disagree). The Land is better with Sunshine Seasons and Soarin' replacing Kitchen Kabaret (although I did love that show...but not Food Rocks). Imagination's, Honey I Shrunk the Audience was better than Captain EO (Again, IMO) but the rest of the pavilion stinks now. On the other side, UoE is still unknown, WoL is vacant
, Horizons' replacement was a big downgrade, but I think Test Track was a major step up and required replacement.It's clear we disagree in our thoughts but that's what makes this world so interesting
DisneyFan18
Well-Known Member
I don't.@marni1971, do you this is a possibility?
Maddie Terwilliger
Active Member
http://www./wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Screen-Shot-2017-07-17-at-7.43.40-AM.png
So, I am guessing that this ride will also be trackless like Disneyland Paris' version?
That would be awesome, WDW needs a trackless ride, it seems like the global Disneyland's get a bit of trackless rides, (Hong Kong's Mystic Manor, Tokyo's Pooh's Hunny Hunt, Paris' Ratatouille obviously
) It would be nice to share the trackless love with WDW. (apologies if this has already been discussed.)
So, I am guessing that this ride will also be trackless like Disneyland Paris' version?
That would be awesome, WDW needs a trackless ride, it seems like the global Disneyland's get a bit of trackless rides, (Hong Kong's Mystic Manor, Tokyo's Pooh's Hunny Hunt, Paris' Ratatouille obviously
) It would be nice to share the trackless love with WDW. (apologies if this has already been discussed.)