Question about Na'vi river journey

[GoofGoof]

Epcot center took three years from groundbreaking to park opening.

Exactly!!! It was an entire new park on 300 acres of land and at the time it was built the largest construction project on Earth. The park featured 9 countries in World Showcase plus 5 major pavilions and Communicore East and West in the front of the park. They also had to build a large parking lot, a monorail station and line to TTC and all the backstage and support infrastructure for a whole theme park. Without an army of construction workers (I think it was over 10,000 during the course of the project) working around the clock and a whole bunch of imagineers there's no way they could have been done in 3 years and in some cases they did miss the opening day deadline. Contrast that to Avatarland taking a little over 3 years and featuring 2 rides, a restaurant and a gift shop on 12 acres within an existing theme park. If they pushed Avatar construction as hard as they pushed EPCOT Center costruction they probably could have been done a whole lot sooner but the sense of urgency isn't here today for the reason discussed above.

 

[peter11435]

Exactly!!! It was an entire new park on 300 acres of land and at the time it was built the largest construction project on Earth. The park featured 9 countries in World Showcase plus 5 major pavilions and Communicore East and West in the front of the park. They also had to build a large parking lot, a monorail station and line to TTC and all the backstage and support infrastructure for a whole theme park. Without an army of construction workers (I think it was over 10,000 during the course of the project) working around the clock and a whole bunch of imagineers there's no way they could have been done in 3 years and in some cases they did miss the opening day deadline. Contrast that to Avatarland taking a little over 3 years and featuring 2 rides, a restaurant and a gift shop on 12 acres within an existing theme park. If they pushed Avatar construction as hard as they pushed EPCOT Center costruction they probably could have been done a whole lot sooner but the sense of urgency isn't here today for the reason discussed above.

That's not how construction works though. If it takes 6 months to build 6 houses at the same time that doesn't mean you could build one house in one month. It would still take 6 months.

 

[GoofGoof]

That's not how construction works though. If it takes 6 months to build 6 houses at the same time that doesn't meant you could build one house in one month. It would still take 6 months.

Clearing and leveling 300 acres of land for construction takes the same amount of time as clearing 12? So you think that if TWDC built EPCOT Center today it would still only take 3 years? Do you think that Avatar Land was built with a sense of urgency and the construction was pushed at the fastest speed possible? I think you are greatly discounting the monumental construction achievement that building EPCOT Center really was. I suggest a book like Building a Better Mouse or one of the others written on subject. It was an amazing undertaking and they stuck to a deadline to mostly open it on time partially because they were up against a lot of financial pressure. It was a huge risk at the time that paid off.

 

[GoofGoof]

You know, SWL is really exciting - but then I remember the "full overhaul" of MGM consists of that and Toy Story Land, and I begin to wonder if WDW really has turned a corner or is simply accelerating in the same direction its been heading for a while.

As it stands today it's not an increase in overall attractions. It will be interesting to see if there is a phase 3. So far the only thing that seems certain is Mickey taking over GMR. There is plenty of space for further expansion. The Indy and Echo Lake area is prime for something as well as animation courtyard. They also may retheme Star Tours after SW Land opens.

 

[peter11435]

Clearing and leveling 300 acres of land for construction takes the same amount of time as clearing 12? So you think that if TWDC built EPCOT Center today it would still only take 3 years? Do you think that Avatar Land was built with a sense of urgency and the construction was pushed at the fastest speed possible? I think you are greatly discounting the monumental construction achievement that building EPCOT Center really was. I suggest a book like Building a Better Mouse or one of the others written on subject. It was an amazing undertaking and they stuck to a deadline to mostly open it on time partially because they were up against a lot of financial pressure. It was a huge risk at the time that paid off.

Clearing the land for either project was no where near the most time consuming part. I've read many books on the subject including that one and am well aware of the scale of the Epcot project. But you have to understand that it wasn't one project at a time by one group of workers. There were multiple construction companies working on multiple projects simultaneously. Each project had its own crew and needed the full allotment of time to be completed. If they were simply building World of Motion for example it still would have taken 2-3 years to construct it. Construction still takes time. Could it be done faster. Sometimes yes. But using the Epcot project is a flawed comparison because Epcot was not built faster. The Epcot project was monumental in overall scale but with few exceptions no individual structure was a more challenging build than Pandora.

 

[GoofGoof]

Clearing the land for either project was no where near the most time consuming part. I've read many books on the subject including that one and am well aware of the scale of the Epcot project. But you have to understand that it wasn't one project at a time by one group of workers. There were multiple construction companies working on multiple projects simultaneously. Each project had its own crew and needed the full allotment of time to be completed. If they were simply building World of Motion for example it still would have taken 2-3 years to construct it. Construction still takes time. Could it be done faster. Sometimes yes. But using the Epcot project is a flawed comparison because Epcot was not built faster. The Epcot project was monumental in overall scale but with few exceptions no individual structure was a more challenging build than Pandora.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[doctornick]

Clearing the land for either project was no where near the most time consuming part. I've read many books on the subject including that one and am well aware of the scale of the Epcot project. But you have to understand that it wasn't one project at a time by one group of workers. There were multiple construction companies working on multiple projects simultaneously. Each project had its own crew and needed the full allotment of time to be completed. If they were simply building World of Motion for example it still would have taken 2-3 years to construct it. Construction still takes time. Could it be done faster. Sometimes yes. But using the Epcot project is a flawed comparison because Epcot was not built faster. The Epcot project was monumental in overall scale but with few exceptions no individual structure was a more challenging build than Pandora.

Exactly this. I don't know why people continue to use the flawed comparison with Epcot to argue construction times. Epcot was monumental in total scale but that means it was merely the sum of a number of smaller projects all happening at the same time. But each individual project was largely independent and happening in parallel -- it wasn't like they needed to finish Spaceship Earth before they could get started on World of Motion.

 

[GoofGoof]

Exactly this. I don't know why people continue to use the flawed comparison with Epcot to argue construction times. Epcot was monumental in total scale but that means it was merely the sum of a number of smaller projects all happening at the same time. But each individual project was largely independent and happening in parallel -- it wasn't like they needed to finish Spaceship Earth before they could get started on World of Motion.

So you think if EPCOT Center was built by TWDC of today it would be finished in 3 years?

 

[Casper Gutman]

As it stands today it's not an increase in overall attractions. It will be interesting to see if there is a phase 3. So far the only thing that seems certain is Mickey taking over GMR. There is plenty of space for further expansion. The Indy and Echo Lake area is prime for something as well as animation courtyard. They also may retheme Star Tours after SW Land opens.

I have very real doubts about a Phase Three with current management. Echo Lake and the parking lot were supposed to be SWL, of course, but they decided to go the cheaper way. I can't see them ponying up the money now when they wouldn't do it for the most successful IP in the world. If we DO get a Phase Three in the short term, I suspect it might be because of panic if Pandora fails to meet their attendance and guest satisfaction expectations (which may happen).

 

[GoofGoof]

I have very real doubts about a Phase Three with current management. Echo Lake and the parking lot were supposed to be SWL, of course, but they decided to go the cheaper way. I can't see them ponying up the money now when they wouldn't do it for the most successful IP in the world. If we DO get a Phase Three in the short term, I suspect it might be because of panic if Pandora fails to meet their attendance and guest satisfaction expectations (which may happen).

Phase 3 at DHS would have nothing to do with Pandora. If Pandora fails to draw people AK won't get any new rides any time soon but it shouldn't impact DHS much. If there is still money left in the overall budget as part of the ramp up to the 50th I could see them doing some small stuff but a major new land is not likely in the next 5 years. Once SW Land opens and the crowds in that park surge they may realize they need to add something to boost capacity, but that may be more of the temporary exhibits they currently use during construction. The Indy Stunt show probably won't fit anymore since the park will no longer be a behind the scenes studio park so I could see that go. Could they replace it with an actual Indy ride? Maybe. I do think Star Tours is likely to be re themed and the Mickey ride seems pretty likely. Maybe some updates to shows could be possible too.

 

[spacemt354]

Clearing and leveling 300 acres of land for construction takes the same amount of time as clearing 12?

To use an analogy - pretend that we aren't talking in "acres" but instead are talking about "chairs" that you're setting up for an event. And it takes 2 seconds to set up 1 chair.

If you hire 1 person to set up 300 chairs, it will take 600 seconds to set them all up.
If you hire 300 people working at the same time to set up the 300 chairs, it will take 2 seconds to set them all up.

The more individuals working on the same project at the same time, the less time that project takes. Theoretically if several different construction crews were hired to clear and level 12 acres each (totaling 300ish acres), and they all worked at the same time, it would take the same amount of time that it takes one construction crew to clear and level 12 acres.

 

[GoofGoof]

To use an analogy - pretend that we aren't talking in "acres" but instead are talking about "chairs" that you're setting up for an event. And it takes 2 seconds to set up 1 chair.

If you hire 1 person to set up 300 chairs, it will take 600 seconds to set them all up.
If you hire 300 people working at the same time to set up the 300 chairs, it will take 2 seconds to set them all up.

The more individuals working on the same project at the same time, the less time that project takes. Theoretically if several different construction crews were hired to clear and level 12 acres each (totaling 300ish acres), and they all worked at the same time, it would take the same amount of time that it takes one construction crew to clear and level 12 acres.

I get that. I'll ask the same question that I asked the other 2 with no answer. If TWDC built EPCOT Center today would it only take 3 years?

 

[spacemt354]

I get that. I'll ask the same question that I asked the other 2 with no answer. If TWDC built EPCOT Center today would it only take 3 years?

Probably because it's a hypothetical question with a lot of variables and impossible to predict either way. If the stars aligned, multiple construction crews were used, and Disney wanted it built in 3 years, then my answer would be yes.

 

[GoofGoof]

Probably because it's a hypothetical question with a lot of variables and impossible to predict either way. If the stars aligned, multiple construction crews were used, and Disney wanted it built in 3 years, then my answer would be yes.

Of course there are a million different variables so there's no way to know for sure and of course if they wanted to do it they could as long as cost was no object. My point is that Disney has a deliberate slower pace than the past and that's not necessarily a bad thing. It just is the way they build now. If I had to guess they would break the project today into multiple phases and open them over a series of years. Not unlike the approach they took with DHS and AK when they were built. I think it's unrealistic to assume that a whole theme park can be built in the same time as a single land today by just adding more workers. The park is 20X the size of the land so just add 20X the workers and you're done. There is so much coordination needed for a construction project that size and so many bottlenecks where delays in one area would slow down others. You would also need an army of imagineers which they did hire back when they built EPCOT.

 

[disney4life2008]

Any bets the amazing AA at the end of the river ride breaks down the first day? Lol

 

[spacemt354]

Of course there are a million different variables so there's no way to know for sure and of course if they wanted to do it they could as long as cost was no object. My point is that Disney has a deliberate slower pace than the past and that's not necessarily a bad thing. It just is the way they build now. If I had to guess they would break the project today into multiple phases and open them over a series of years. Not unlike the approach they took with DHS and AK when they were built. I think it's unrealistic to assume that a whole theme park can be built in the same time as a single land today by just adding more workers. The park is 20X the size of the land so just add 20X the workers and you're done. There is so much coordination needed for a construction project that size and so many bottlenecks where delays in one area would slow down others. You would also need an army of imagineers which they did hire back when they built EPCOT.

Note how I said if they "wanted" to. If they want to slow down the pace of construction to spread it out over multiple quarterly costs they are welcome to. But if we are playing the hypothetical game, if they wanted something complete in 3 years, on a massive scale, they would need a massive prep/construction coordination in order to accomplish it, and then do it.

I doubt something like Epcot will ever happen again (though granted Animal Kingdom was built Aug 1995-April 1998), but if it's a question of feasibility, it's mathematically attainable if Disney wanted it. Whether Disney would want it is a completely different question than if it's possible.

 

[GoofGoof]

Note how I said if they "wanted" to. If they want to slow down the pace of construction to spread it out over multiple quarterly costs they are welcome to. But if we are playing the hypothetical game, if they wanted something complete in 3 years, on a massive scale, they would need a massive prep/construction coordination in order to accomplish it, and then do it.

I doubt something like Epcot will ever happen again (though granted Animal Kingdom was built Aug 1995-April 1998), but if it's a question of feasibility, it's mathematically attainable if Disney wanted it. Whether Disney would want it is a completely different question than if it's possible.

Agreed. The question was never could they do it, but would they. This whole tangent started by someone asking why Disney takes so long to build things now compared to the past. My response was that they choose to spread construction out. That was challenged by a few others. I still stand by my original response.

And AK is a perfect example. Instead of coordinating the building of the whole park at once they opened in phases without Asia or Beastly Kingdom in the grand opening. They basically built half the park in 3 years with Asia opening later and Beastly Kingdom essentially now opening as Pandora.

 

[marni1971]

Sorry I'm late. No drop.

 

[peter11435]

So you think if EPCOT Center was built by TWDC of today it would be finished in 3 years?

TWDC of today would not build EPCOT Center. Most of the park would have been cut or delayed. What remained I think would be built in the approximate 3 year time frame.

 

[danlb_2000]

So you think if EPCOT Center was built by TWDC of today it would be finished in 3 years?

I definitely think they could. Pretty much every major project at WDW done recently has taken less then or just a couple months over 3 years to complete. As others have pointed out, the time to build a park is only as long as the longest time to build a single attraction since things are quit in parallel. Let's also remember that not everything that was in the works at Epcot opened with the rest of the park. For example Journey to Imagination and Horizons opened later.

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