Possible Frontierland expansion

[Tod&BigMamaOdie]

The MK's attraction count is lower now than in it was in 1996.

However, there's no denying that FL expansion greatly improved the park's aesthetics.

Thanks, I wasn't sure exactly on the count. and I agree that it improved the aesthetics. It's beautiful work, fun to walk or stand and admire.

 

[tirian]

Thanks, I wasn't sure exactly on the count. and I agree that it improved the aesthetics. It's beautiful work, fun to walk or stand and admire.

I just edited that post and added a ton of more detail.

 

[Tod&BigMamaOdie]

I just edited that post and added a ton of more detail.

I appreciate the added details! I don't miss the subs either; never could submerge myself into that fantasy.

 

[tirian]

I appreciate the added details! I don't miss the subs either; never could submerge myself into that fantasy.

I wanted to like the ride because I loved the VHS tape, but even as a kid, I couldn't buy into the plastic scenery.

IMO FLE has two problems: (1) the forced perspective for Beast's castle is atrocious, and (2) Disney execs refused to accept how FLE merely addressed existing capacity problems and didn't make room for new crowds. WDI could only control the first issue. Otherwise, FLE and even the Tangled Toilets (R) are pretty darn nice.

 

[tirian]

Oh, and back on topic: I wouldn't expect a FrL expansion any time soon.

 

[Spike-in-Berlin]

Pretty sure that I was the biggest critic of the change from FLE 1.0 to 2.0 on these boards.

You considered the Princess-Pixie-Fairy-M+G overkill version better than the built version? Which is still not even remotely the expected answer by Disney to WWoHP at Universal?
BTW, because capacity is the problem, an AL-expansion would make more sense than just adding more attractions. A true expansion brings not only the ride, it brings shops and restaurants and walking areas. Besides big rides which work as people eater, that's what really increases capacity, areas where people walk, sit and talk, enjoy the kinetics and entertainment, all those design features and elements that made Disney parks so special.
Just imagine what the AL expansion would mean for the capacity of the MK, a new attraction on E-Ticket level, lets call it Fire Mountain or JttCotE, with very elaborate queueing areas, that alone soak up hundreds of waiting guests, the new reimaged Tiki-Room as the second attraction in a Polynesian village setting at the base of the Volcano, 3 shops with 2 Attraction related gift shops that sell merchandise, one for the E-Ticket, one for the Tiki Room and a third shop for aloha shirts, polynesian pop artifacts, tiki culture etc. Add a table service restaurant like the Ohana in the Poly and a CS-restaurant like Captain Cooks (Which serves TONGA TOAST for breakfast) only in the scale of Columbia Harbor House or Cosmic Rays, the new Aloha Isle and M+G areas for Moana and the new expansion is complete. The entire land offers brillant views of the volcano, the new weenie of AL and crowds are waiting to see the different eruption patterns, like at Mt. Prometheus in TDS. The square footage of the area alone can take up thousands of guests more with the attractions, their queueing areas and shops and the restaurants.

 

[RSoxNo1]

The MK's attraction count is lower now than in it was in 1996. You could also argue the park's capacity and throughput were higher because Space and Pirates had two queues gobbling guests instead of just one. Placemaking was also stronger, with cannons firing atop POTC and a swath of simple experiences scattered throughout Main Street and Liberty Square. Plus, if you include stage shows in TL, ToonTown Fair, and the Castle, there was actually more to do in 1996 than in 2017.

However, there's no denying the FL expansion greatly improved that land's aesthetics, compared to the fence that was there before. Is it better than the 20K lagoon? That's a matter of personal opinion. (I don't miss the subs, which were never convincing IMO.) Plus, FL finally feels like a place instead of a corridor.

For me personally, Fantasyland is better today than it was when the subs were around. That's blasphemy to some, but I don't care. A Speedway type attraction should go to DHS (it should have been part of Toy Story Land) and the Speedway should be removed from Tomorrowland. Really all of Tomorrowland can be updated in some way, shape or form, but doing so should have already started.

I'd speculate that MK needs 8000 Guests per hour in additional ride capacity today, and that's only going to get worse as the other parks expand. The removal of the Speedway can greatly dip into that number. It's a lower capacity ride that caters exclusively to the 13 and under crowd and takes up a significant amount of space. It's also adjacent to the most valuable real estate on property. Removing the Speedway, or at least better utilizing that space (with a coaster above/around it) should absolutely be the next move for MK.

 

[DryerLintFan]

I see I'm coming to this thread late, but my two cents were rubbing together. Great, MK needs to expand. It has to it is the Flagship of WDW-Florida. The resorts on and off property have expanded to the point that there is no real down time anymore at the parks. Even in winter in Florida you get the Great White Pasty migration to Positive Temperature numbers. It has the land to be able to expand. Adventureland should update and expand. Add more rides, bring back old charter themeing. Ducktales, Tarzan, Keep SFRTH. Expand Frontierland to include more of america. Keep RoA, add St Lewis, New Orleans, Pacific Northwest, Pre-fire Frisco or Seattle. around the river, Add 3 more etickets to each area. Expand Tomorowland, Pick the year the Movie was in, and go for it. Let the imagineers loose on tomorrow, hover craft rides, Robot waiter restaurants. As things sit now, one park needs to take the lead to be the real time machine for tomorrow, and the other needs to take all the Disney Themed tomorrow products and build a ride and merchandise. MK vs EPCOT. I know everyone who running the Dis is thinking $$$$ capitol investments bean counting, but look Pandora has increased DAK popularity. DHS popularity will increase for the next two years with two lands opening. Disney, just plan to have the licence to print money, everyone's coming. Start now.
Oh and the 300-500 Million for the 50th. With all the bunting, and 50 year themeing to be added, thats where that money will go. Just look at DLR 60th theming. Unless they are purposing the 60th bunting to 50th?
Ok off soap box 2 cents spent.

A restaurant with robot waiters sounds amazing!

 

[RSoxNo1]

I wanted to like the ride because I loved the VHS tape, but even as a kid, I couldn't buy into the plastic scenery.

IMO FLE has two problems: (1) the forced perspective for Beast's castle is atrocious, and (2) Disney execs refused to accept how FLE merely addressed existing capacity problems and didn't make room for new crowds. WDI could only control the first issue. Otherwise, FLE and even the Tangled Toilets (R) are pretty darn nice.

I actually disagree here. Aside from Mine Train, Fantasyland expansion did exactly what it was supposed to do from a crowds standpoint. Mermaid is a people eater and the capacity increase to Dumbo has helped significantly. Aesthetically, they entire area is very well executed (except for the Beast's castle, which you said).

Since I called for the execution of the Speedway in the previous post, I'll use this one for my less realistic call to action, relocation of "it's a small world". Here's what I would do:

• Relocate "it's a small world" to Showcase Plaza in Epcot. Remove the existing building in Fantasyland.
• Remove (potentially relocate) Pinocchio's Village Haus
• Keep the exterior facade for Enchanted Tales with Belle but use it as the entrance to the Beauty and the Beast Dark Ride. The removal of Pinocchio's Village Haus will push the utilidoor entrance further North
• Expand the Tangled area along the side of The Haunted Mansion. This can include a dark ride and a Snuggly Duckling Restaurant
• Expand the Mountain facade from Be Our Guest the length of the road that currently travels behind "It's a small world" and use it as a backdrop for a Frozen attraction.
  
• In theory, this could also allow room for a Peter Pan/Tinkerbell Flat ride.

With this, you've removed attraction capacity in the form of "it's a small world" and "Enchanted Tales with Belle" but gained it with a Tangled, Frozen and Beauty and the Beast ride.

 

[Goob]

For those in the know, (Martin, magicfeather) is there any chance we'll get an out of left field, surprise announcement for a "New Tomorrowland" or "New Adventureland?"

Just trying to pry some coy hints out of you guys, ha!

 

[tirian]

I actually disagree here. Aside from Mine Train, Fantasyland expansion did exactly what it was supposed to do from a crowds standpoint. Mermaid is a people eater and the capacity increase to Dumbo has helped significantly. Aesthetically, they entire area is very well executed (except for the Beast's castle, which you said).

Since I called for the execution of the Speedway in the previous post, I'll use this one for my less realistic call to action, relocation of "it's a small world". Here's what I would do:

• Relocate "it's a small world" to Showcase Plaza in Epcot. Remove the existing building in Fantasyland.
• Remove (potentially relocate) Pinocchio's Village Haus
• Keep the exterior facade for Enchanted Tales with Belle but use it as the entrance to the Beauty and the Beast Dark Ride. The removal of Pinocchio's Village Haus will push the utilidoor entrance further North
• Expand the Tangled area along the side of The Haunted Mansion. This can include a dark ride and a Snuggly Duckling Restaurant
• Expand the Mountain facade from Be Our Guest the length of the road that currently travels behind "It's a small world" and use it as a backdrop for a Frozen attraction.
  
• In theory, this could also allow room for a Peter Pan/Tinkerbell Flat ride.

FLE addressed existing crowd issues. It did not significantly increase capacity for the MK.

If FP+ hadn't added unnecessary FP to many attractions, Dumbo and Mermaid lines would be even shorter than they are now.

 

[marni1971]

For those in the know, (Martin, magicfeather) is there any chance we'll get a surprise announcement for a "New Tomorrowland" or "New Adventureland?"
!

Not that I'm aware of. From what I know there's only one MK announcement planned. We'll see.

 

[Tod&BigMamaOdie]

I actually disagree here. Aside from Mine Train, Fantasyland expansion did exactly what it was supposed to do from a crowds standpoint. Mermaid is a people eater and the capacity increase to Dumbo has helped significantly. Aesthetically, they entire area is very well executed (except for the Beast's castle, which you said).

Since I called for the execution of the Speedway in the previous post, I'll use this one for my less realistic call to action, relocation of "it's a small world". Here's what I would do:

• Relocate "it's a small world" to Showcase Plaza in Epcot. Remove the existing building in Fantasyland.
• Remove (potentially relocate) Pinocchio's Village Haus
• Keep the exterior facade for Enchanted Tales with Belle but use it as the entrance to the Beauty and the Beast Dark Ride. The removal of Pinocchio's Village Haus will push the utilidoor entrance further North
• Expand the Tangled area along the side of The Haunted Mansion. This can include a dark ride and a Snuggly Duckling Restaurant
• Expand the Mountain facade from Be Our Guest the length of the road that currently travels behind "It's a small world" and use it as a backdrop for a Frozen attraction.
  
• In theory, this could also allow room for a Peter Pan/Tinkerbell Flat ride.

With this, you've removed attraction capacity in the form of "it's a small world" and "Enchanted Tales with Belle" but gained it with a Tangled, Frozen and Beauty and the Beast ride.

Another thought on expansion would be to construct a path along the HM queue (whether HM restaurant or no) which leads to an old tunnel, overgrown with weeds and such, that leads into that wooded plot that would be (pipe dream) a Villains Land or "Kingdom". It'd be nice for it to fit within the woods somehow as such to not be seen from within the regular MK. What attractions it holds is beyond my creative capacity.
As for Frontier Land, to get back on topic, I'd love to see an expansion there as well (and in AL, TL and as you mentioned Fantasyland).

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

FLE addressed existing crowd issues. It did not significantly increase capacity for the MK.

If FP+ hadn't added unnecessary FP to many attractions, Dumbo and Mermaid lines would be even shorter than they are now.

I'd argue it did relatively little for addressing crowd issues either, FLE seems to have accomplished little more than just restoring and maybe slightly increasing some of the capacity it had when 20k still operated. But regardless, it has been an utter failure at managing modern crowds.

I view Mermaid as a replacement for 20K Leagues, and 7DMT replacing the original Snow White (subjective opinions on ride quality aside, i'm just discussing numbers here). Mermaid is the only ride (I assume) has a relatively high capacity among any of these, and i'm sure the extra Dumbo helped a little. The rest are glorified meet and greets or restaurants, and the m&g's have no business occupying such absurdly large and expensive chunks of land.

It is absurd when the comparatively tiny Disneyland's Fantasyland has managed to amass 14 rides in total since opening (counting Toontown). Yet Magic Kingdom's Fantasyland in its 45+ years of life has only managed to amass only 9... Both parks have lost their skyways so they're even there. And unlike MK (which still has massive plots of designated unused expansion space), Disneyland actually IS running low on expansion possibilities.

 

[Kman101]

The MK's attraction count is lower now than in it was in 1996. You could also argue the park's capacity and throughput were higher because Space and Pirates had two queues gobbling guests instead of just one. Placemaking was also stronger, with cannons firing atop POTC and a swath of simple experiences scattered throughout Main Street and Liberty Square. Plus, if you include stage shows in TL, ToonTown Fair, and the Castle, there was actually more to do in 1996 than in 2017.

However, there's no denying the FL expansion greatly improved that land's aesthetics, compared to the fence that was there before. Is it better than the 20K lagoon? That's a matter of personal opinion. (I don't miss the subs, which were never convincing IMO.) Plus, FL finally feels like a place instead of a corridor.

+1

But I miss the subs LOL I loved them. But I was a kid at the time. Visually, the lagoon with the subs looked great.

Frontierland, Tomorrowland and Adventureland could all use an expansion, TBH

 

[Kman101]

I wanted to like the ride because I loved the VHS tape, but even as a kid, I couldn't buy into the plastic scenery.

IMO FLE has two problems: (1) the forced perspective for Beast's castle is atrocious, and (2) Disney execs refused to accept how FLE merely addressed existing capacity problems and didn't make room for new crowds. WDI could only control the first issue. Otherwise, FLE and even the Tangled Toilets (R) are pretty darn nice.

Another +1

I don't like the Beast's castle perspective at all.

 

[Kman101]

Oh, and back on topic: I wouldn't expect a FrL expansion any time soon.

That's a shame. They need more space to walk around. Frontierland is like a strip mall with a dead end.

 

[EricsBiscuit]

And I'm guessing that one announcement is GotG Mission: Breakout! Coming to the Tikki Room? Or is it a SGE replacement?

 

[clemmo]

Not that I'm aware of. From what I know there's only one MK announcement planned. We'll see.

Honestly I'm surprised we even get that considering most of the 50th announcements id assume would be at a later dater

 

[roj2323]

Not that I'm aware of. From what I know there's only one MK announcement planned. We'll see.

Hopefully Stitch will finally make his great escape and that building will gain an attraction worthy of tomorrowland