Orlando Sentinel - Disney autism disability lawsuit moves to Orlando federal court

CJR

Well-Known Member
They could use the billion dollar plus new electronic system they installed at WDW;).

I do wonder if maybe they aren't allowing guests to book via phone since the functionality wouldn't exist at DLR. If they offered a service to guests at WDW and not DLR would that cause an even bigger uproar? Probably.

I think that is part of the reason (not the only reason, of course) they were pushing DL so hard to adopt it. I do still think it will be the future of this program, if Disney gets their way. It seems like it would be very easy to add this to the MDE app, which will still probably make its way to DLR in some shape or form.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I think this definitely will work to Disney's advantage, which is why they made the request in the first place, IMO. I don't know what will actually happen, but my gut tells me it will end in the favor of Disney.

With that said, I am hopeful Disney will improve the existing system. It would be nice for people to be able to verify their disability before their vacation and be able to reserve ride times via a mobile app, much like the current Fastpass +. It could also prevent mistakes by allowing people to electronically put themselves "in line" as some CM's tend to stamp the wrong time (it's rare but it's happened).

They could also place some limitations on it to prevent such abuse, but I think the biggest issue right now is the fact people actually have to go up to each attraction, get a wait time and leave. If they could do these things through their phone, it would be more seamless since there wouldn't be as much running around and these families could enjoy their day where they already are, but planning ahead some. If they could be flexible and keep the current paper system, that would be awesome too, for those who don't use phones.

I know Disney doesn't have to do this, but I bet it would make a big difference with the complaints. There will still be some complaints, it won't cure everything, but it would still be better than what's there now, IMO.

[EDIT] One more thing, this won't be over for a really long time. Regardless of what happens, there will be appeals, I'm sure.

Im just interested in what this change of venue actually means. Shame they cant get this in front of a Federal Judge friend of mine in Atlanta....
 

4disneylovers

Well-Known Member
Here are my thoughts after reading this thread. I have seen this policy change over the years. In the 80s we used to push my great grandma in a wheelchair through the park. Each time we went the policy was different. Sometimes one person took her to a special place to wait while everyone else waited in line. We got to go in when they reachef the front. Other times we all got to go right in. Either way, we did whatever they asked us to do.

Then We went many years with no one that was disabled or couldn't walk due to age and we waited in lines like everyone else.

Then in 2012 my children pushed their great grandma around the parks in a Wheelchair. She was 85. We were pleased that they accommodated us with quicker entrance because we were much slower moving. However we did not view it as an entitlement. We were thankful.

The problem is In our world today everyone thinks they are entitled. They think things are rights instead of priveleges.

That all being said I think it would be incredibly difficult to wait in line with an autistic child. The problem is the system was abused and it affected those that needed it as well as those that were doing the abusing. However, I think Disney is well within their rights to make this policy change and it is sad that in our society the first thing people do us sue.
 

Tom

Beta Return
Seems to me, not being American, that the answer would be to amend the ADA so they have to give some proof as to their disabilities then we wouldn't have all these problems. Or is that too easy? Can a US Federal court amend/give guidance to a Law to make it clearer?

There are other laws here that prevent it from working this way. Indeed it would be easier for everyone if you could be a "Card Carrying [insert disability]", but then you cross into the whole privacy thing.
 

rct247

Well-Known Member
By law, Disney must accommodate them if a reasonable accommodation can be made.

That's the crux of the matter. What is a reasonable accommodation?

Per ADA, discrimination occurs when there is a "failure to make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, when such modifications are necessary to afford such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to individuals with disabilities, unless the entity can demonstrate that making such modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of such goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations".

Per the Federal Government's ADA webpage:

“What is a fundamental alteration? A fundamental alteration is a modification that is so significant that it alters the essential nature of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations offered.”

What constitutes a “reasonable modification” or a “fundamental alteration” is what the lawsuit is about. Are the plaintiffs asking for a reasonable accommodation? Does what the plaintiffs seek alter the essential nature of what Disney offers?

This is the meat and potatoes of the case, but when you read the rest of the argument put forth for the case, you'll find that there isn't much that can't be counter argued from outdated information about resort guests only getting to use MagicBands to almost all lines are at least an hour long.

While surely this is my logic and my opinion, I don't see how Disney will lose this case. It should be clear as day that the modifications being made to accommodate were changed to provide a more equal experience. GAC was fundamentally altering the typical theme park experience that any other paying guest would get and giving them a huge advantage or privilege over them vs an accommodation. While I am cautious to tread lightly on the subject, one could argue that it is now reverse discrimination. Of course, stating that alone will cause tempers to flare. Life isn't always fair. Some people will have advantages and disadvantages. Sometimes those with the great disadvantage may get the extra advantage in the end, but if equality is the key to preventing discrimination, then there will always have to be some give and take. DAS is a great example of that balance. It won't always be the easiest way, but neither is waiting line for the average guest with children who can stand in a line.
 

mm121

Well-Known Member
if parents of autism kids dont want to wait, then why doesn't some organization just plan group autism trips, and then use disney's VIP service.

yes this costs some money but not much if the number of guests for the vip time is maxed out.

good point on the person who brought up waiting for restaurants and the tsa.
just like the segway case, this will go nowhere, as there really isn't a way to change it as disney isn't allowed to ask someone to PROVE their kid has autism or other "no waiting" problems, which puts things right back into the boat they were with the GAC opening things up for abuse.

Its unfortunate this had to happen, I remember the time years and years ago, year 2000 i think, where we went with my grandma and got her a wheelchair, not for special privileges, she had issues walking, though was nice getting front row to some of the shows at AK.

anyone know when the GAC program started?
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
I only have a basic understanding of ADA laws but can't imagine a scenario where Disney loses this case, they are required to provide disabled people the same access to the rides that everyone else has, not only are they doing that but with the added benefit that the person can enjoy the shade, take a seat, or enjoy the other rides, sites, and sounds of the parks rather than having to wait in a boring or confining line. That's an amazing benefit!

I honestly wonder how long it will be before the GAC becomes just as abused as the DAS and has to be changed again. It's essentially an unlimited FP but with quicker return times since most lines will be less than an hour wait vs a a normal FP often having a return time several hours later.

I love that Disney does this for those who otherwise couldn't enjoy the parks, it's just unfortunate there are so many people with no morals that will inevitably abuse it.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
That's another great question that no one seems to be able to answer satisfactorily.

Companies like Cedar Fair and Six Flags have a lot more theme parks than Disney does. And they use a system that is even more restrictive than Disney's DAS currently is. Why not sue them instead, or at least in addition to Disney?

Because it's more about publicity and recovering attorneys fees in settlement, not about actual relief.

It is easy to assume that from the outside, and it may partially be true. But you are missing an important part of the equation.

First: necessary disclaimer so I don't get jumped on. I am not in favor of the lawsuit. DAS works for me, and I always approached GAC as if it wouldn't last because it felt too good to be true.

The part you are missing that can give you a clue as to motivations here, is that Disney has for years fostered a sub-culture of families with autism who obsess over Disney World.

To understand that, you have to understand that people with autism thrive on routine and repetition. All cases are different obviously, but the vast majority of children with autism will have trouble going to new places, trying new things, or having new experiences in any way. Disney saw early that their rides appeal to the sensory seeking aspect of autism. Gentle rides in comfortable environments. Places like Universal and Six Flags have little appeal to a great number of people with autism because thrill rides are too intense for many. My son, won't generally won't go on anything faster than the drop on pirates. Autism forces you to experience all sensory input like an exposed nerve, so even a gentle drop can feel like an intense coaster. Non-Disney parks don't have much to offer on the gentle ride front. Again, some will differ, but for the most part an intense sensory experience isn't what someone with autism is looking for.

So, Disney being the shrewd player they are, has developed the ultimate captive audience. The GAC allowed so many guests to come try Disney World. Trust me, within the niches of the internet that cater to parents of kids with autism, the GAC represented the land of milk and honey. "You mean there's someplace I can take my family on vacation that won't result in a horrible experience filled with crying and meltdowns". That appeal allowed families who often don't vacation at all due to the difficulties to give Disney a try. And within those safe environs, and with an atypical experience of their child being in a social setting and not melting down, they became addicted.

I've tried taking my son to other vacation destinations (theme parks and non). He has no interest. I'd love to get to Universal someday. I've never seen any of HP. But my son has no interest, so it proves far too much a risk for me. My son is locked into Disney World. It is the only place in the world where my family can go and I can predict the outcome. I assume that the plaintiffs in this suit are in the same boat.

Someone before said it was like they were used to a Ferrari and then given a ford. I get the sentiment. But is more as if they were used to a ford, and now must ride the bus. Because for many of these families, there is no alternative. They may not be able to take vacations at all anymore. I am very lucky that we got my son to adapt to lack of GAC use before the change, or I would probably be selling my DVC membership now.

All that said though. The plaintiffs have no valid legal claim here as far as I can see. This is pure selfishness as some claim. But it is not the cynical kind of selfishness I think that many assume. It is a desperate cry because they are losing the one normal thing in their lives that they clinged to. Something they will likely not be able to replace. It is because of that that I feel sorry for them, even if I don't agree with the suit. Disney created this culture of Disney addicts, and then took away their fix. People will lash out irrationally when that happens. Right or wrong.
 
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rangerbob

Well-Known Member
As of last year, Universal offered a two-tiered system.

The first tier was similar to WDW's DAS, the difference being that Express Pass line access was granted if the wait time was 30 minutes or less. (Disney's is 10 minutes.) Most guests with disabilities got this.

The second tier was similar to Disney's old GAC system. Essentially, Universal handed out its Express Pass for free to those with qualifying disabilities, typically Autism.

If Disney wins the lawsuit, I suspect Universal will drop their second tier, if they haven't already.

Six Flags use to offer a system similar to GAC but switched this over to a system more like DAS last year due to widespread abuse.

I've never seen this second tier system that you are referring to at Universal. My son has aspegers a form of autism but higher functioning. He can't handle the lines (not the line but the mobs of people crowding him) but he has been OK with gettng the times and coming back to the ride. I thought the walking away from the ride that he wanted to ride was going to be a problem at first but it wasn't. We utalize the FP- system, getting times and getting into lines that are short routine with absolutely no problems. We don't do the big rides. He can't handle the stresses on his body and will set him off. My only option to doing Space Mountain is leave him alone outside while I ride (I don't do this). If there is a short line for something (Harry Potter) I had him walk through the line that was 10 minutes and when we got to the escape door he went through and I went on and we re-joined at the end of the ride.
 

Monorail_Red_77

Well-Known Member
I apologize if this has been mentioned already but here goes. If you look on the back of your park ticket, in my case Annual Pass. It clearly states in red letters. "It is agreed between the owners of the Walt Disney World Resort and ticket users that all claims for injury or loss arising incident to presence on owners' property shall be litigated in Florida"

Perhaps the courts are using this to bring it back to Florida where the incident actually happened? From reading the article It is not really clear where the incident happened. CA or FL. Although it does seem strange to move the case to FL just based on where the program was developed. Seems like it should be tried in the state where the incident occurred.
 
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Kingoglow

Well-Known Member
It is a desperate cry because they are losing the one normal thing in their lives that they clinged to. Something they will likely not be able to replace. It is because of that that I feel sorry for them, even if I don't agree with the suit. Disney created this culture of Disney addicts, and then took away their fix. People will lash out irrationally when that happens. Right or wrong.

While I totally respect and appreciate your perspective here, I would caution you on characterizing a WDW vacation as normal. Being able to afford a vacation to WDW is not normal; most of the US can't afford something as luxurious as that. There are so many families that are never able to experience the parks for a variety of reasons. In truth it is anything but normal.

I get where you are coming from. You are implying a social experience with out a meltdown (I don't like that term) but the setting should not be considered normal.
 

Gomer

Well-Known Member
While I totally respect and appreciate your perspective here, I would caution you on characterizing a WDW vacation as normal. Being able to afford a vacation to WDW is not normal; most of the US can't afford something as luxurious as that. There are so many families that are never able to experience the parks for a variety of reasons. In truth it is anything but normal.

I get where you are coming from. You are implying a social experience with out a meltdown (I don't like that term) but the setting should not be considered normal.
Normal, as in the typical practices a family will participate in. Living with autism is often an atypical existence. Vacations, movies, restaurants, a lot of the time are out of the question. Disney World may not be normal. But vacations generally are. (Yes, I understand that some can't afford vacations at all, but the majority of families do experience some sort of vacation during their time) And vacations are something, because of unpredictability, that are often out of the question for a family with autism. So, being able to capture some of that familial normalcy that comes so easy to others is appealing to those who may not be able to pull it off elsewhere.
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
I apologize if this has been mentioned already but here goes. If you look on the back of your park ticket, in my case Annual Pass. It clearly states in red letters. "It is agreed between the owners of the Walt Disney World Resort and ticket users that all claims for injury or loss arising incident to presence on owners' property shall be litigated in Florida"

Perhaps the courts are using this to bring it back to Florida where the incident actually happened? From reading the article It is not really clear where the incident happened. CA or FL. Although it does seem strange to move the case to FL just based on where the program was developed. Seems like it should be tried in the state where the incident occurred.


This action arises out of the ADA and California's Unruh Civil Rights Act, not "loss or injury" as specified by your annual pass' choice of venue clause. That clause isn't relevant here.

As to venue, it's being changed to better accomodate the location of several key members of the defense.
You're right that it's often relevant where an incident occured, as to where to file a case, but in this example the plaintiffs filed against the Walt Disney company in federal court using a federal law as a basis. The federal court, therefore, has subject matter jurisdiction to hear the case, and because The Walt Disney Company advertises in every state, and actually operates parks, stores, and corporate offices in California, a federal court there has personal jurisdiction as well, as would a California state court. So, the plaintiffs definitely filed in an appropriate court. The question of venue is one more of practical convenience to the parties.
 

GrumpyFan

Well-Known Member
All that said though. The plaintiffs have no valid legal claim here as far as I can see. This is pure selfishness as some claim. But it is not the cynical kind of selfishness I think that many assume. It is a desperate cry because they are losing the one normal thing in their lives that they clinged to. Something they will likely not be able to replace. It is because of that that I feel sorry for them, even if I don't agree with the suit. Disney created this culture of Disney addicts, and then took away their fix. People will lash out irrationally when that happens. Right or wrong.

Very well stated. I appreciate your perspective and explanation of this complicated and sensitive subject.

Just curious though of your thoughts regarding the law suit claims alleging that Disney has intentionally changed the system to cleanse the park of some of these families and/or guests with these types of disabilities?

Quote from the lawsuit, top of page 30 - http://www.dogalilaw.com/files/86572403.pdf
Disney did not accidentally roll out a system which is so distinctly inconsistent with the special needs of such persons. Disney did so intentionally or recklessly, to cleanse its Parks of what Disney views as the anti-Magic of such persons’ stimming, tics, and meltdowns, or subsequently intentionally or recklessly accepted the damage to Plaintiffs as a benefit to Disney.

Some of the claims they make are pretty far stretched and more opinion based than actual legal claims, but things like the above claim in the suit, really seem to make it feel like they're grasping at anything to try and pin this on Disney. Like you, I feel sorry for them, because I don't see where they have a legal claim here, unless they get a VERY sympathetic judge. Even sadder though, is the thought that many of them might not be able to enjoy Disney in the future, without something similar to the former system in place. I would like to hope that Disney is still concerned about these guests, and would look for other ways to accommodate them in the future. It's sad really that it had to come to a law suit though. Seems like they jumped the gun in the matter instead of pleading and working with Disney for an alternative solution.
 

LAKid53

Official Member of the Girly Girl Fan Club
Premium Member
A shakedown? As in seeking comnsatory/monetary damages? If so, I have to disagree with you. Nowhere in the suit did they ask for money except to pay for attorney fees.

I would hope you're right about finding a judge though. I just don't see how any public facility where a line or wait might be required can adequately address the need (demand) for someone in this manner by allowing them to skip ahead. From what I've read and understand of ADA (which isn't much really), it's not a requirement by law either. The law simply states that facilities must provide "equal access" as they do to all of their other guests. Which, in the case of Disney should mean, everybody has to wait their turn. So, if you think about it, the old system was NOT ADA compliant, because it gave GAC holders unfair access in comparison to the regular guest. I'm not a lawyer, but based on the claims made in the suit, some of which I find on the border of being ridiculous, I would love to hear/read Disney's rebuttal to it.

Interesting reason Disney gave in requesting the federal judge to transfer jurisdiction to Florida. Wouldn't the case be heard in either the jurisdiction in which the alleged violation took place or the jurisdiction where the corporation headquarters of the offending organization resides?

Think of the ADA as the Civil Rights Act for the disabled - both physical and mental - because that's what it is. While it requires reasonable accommodations by covered entities, which most of us are familiar with, like the Civil Rights Act of 1964, it bans discrimination in hiring, firing, training and other aspects of employment. But, there is an out based on the "reasonable" requirement - if the accommodation would place an undue hardship on the entity.

I would think the lawsuit is based on discrimination under Title III of the ADA- under Title III, no individual may be discriminated against on the basis of disability with regards to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, or accommodations of any place of public accommodation by any person who owns, leases, or operates a place of public accommodation. Public accommodations is defined to include most places of lodging (such as inns and hotels), recreation, transportation, education, and dining, along with stores, care providers, and places of public displays. If this portion of the ADA is strictly interpreted, then I don't see how the defendants can win their case. Is waiting in line for an attraction for children with autism a "denial of full and equal enjoyment" of the services provided by Disney? Seems like a stretch to me....

I get the feeling this case may eventually find its way to the U.S. Supreme Court.
 

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