Official Photography Contest 1.28.05 - 2.3.05: Indoor Photography

[donsullivan]

I held off on additional comments, to let my blood pressure drop following the sheer arrogance of yesterday's comments. There was absolutely nothing constructive at all in those comments. But after clearing my head (and watching my team win the Super Bowl last night. Yeah!!) I thought I might come back to a thought I had a week or so ago surrounding these contests.

This is certainly not a place where one can teach composition, as that aspect of photography is far too complex and subjective. There are lots of different types of photography (landscape, portrait, architecture, etc..) and no one of those is better, or more important than any other.

However, some of the more technical aspects of photography are more easily taught as they are more concrete and less subjective. Is there some way that we might be able to come up with a set of data that, when available can be provided when a photo is posted?

I'll use myself as an example. I got a Canon Digital Rebel about a year ago and I know full well I'm not consistently getting the quality out of this camera that it's capable of. I'd like to have data on settings that others with Digital SLR's are using to help them take a particular photo. I'd also like to know when they used a flash and if so was it for general fill lighting, or to light the whole subject. On an outdoor photo, what time of day was it taken? If it's not obvious in the photo, was it sunny or cloudy? I know this is a lot of stuff, and most may not care about a lot of it, and many might not have it available but each little bit of data might help others improve their photographic technique.

The bottom line is, many of us would like to learn the techniques that produce a good quality shot, but the composition of the shot is completely in the eye of the beholder. With this data, those who want to learn better technique can learn from a quality photo, but nobody is bashed for what they produce individually.

 

[barnum42]

The bottom line is, many of us would like to learn the techniques that produce a good quality shot, but the composition of the shot is completely in the eye of the beholder.

Certainly, whether one person likes the composition of a shot is going to down to their own preferences, but there are rules and techniques to basic composition and how to balance what is in the frame. If we can understand these, they also lead to a better photo. Knowing these rules would also let us break them for special effects

 

[donsullivan]

... but there are rules and techniques to basic composition and how to balance what is in the frame. If we can understand these, they also lead to a better photo. Knowing these rules would also let us break them for special effects

Okay so then folks taking photos could add some info on why and how they composed the shot the way they did.

My bottom line goal is to come up with a less destructive and negative way of helping people learn to take better photos. Just standing up and telling someone their photo is uninteresting doesn't teach them anything. Maybe some info on how and why your pic was composed as it was could be added as well. I'd venture that many people here won't always have a clue why they took, or framed a particular shot they way they did, but if you do, then share.

In other words, if you you think you're good at it (and many here are quite good at it) help by giving others info about the techniques you used to achieve the result. Then people can have those techniques in mind when they take their next shot. That's how you help people to take better, more interesting photos.

 

[ACE]

Certainly, whether one person likes the composition of a shot is going to down to their own preferences, but there are rules and techniques to basic composition and how to balance what is in the frame. If we can understand these, they also lead to a better photo. Knowing these rules would also let us break them for special effects

IMHO there are no rules for taking pictures that are for your own personal use. I think that also applies to these contests. The photos that are submitted here are from folks own personal pictures. These photos were taken to remember a moment not to be judged on "photography rules". If people want that then there are other sites they can go to.

But I do agree with Dave that some of the pictures are not all that interesting (Please no neg rep for that).

What might be interesting to you may not be to others. Personally, I have yet to vote for one of the "professional" photos. But that's only because I vote for the photos I like, not whether it's done by a "pro" or "amateur.

:wave: ACE

 

[barnum42]

My bottom line goal is to come up with a less destructive and negative way of helping people learn to take better photos.

Good goal. Hopefully my comments can help toward that goal. I may not have been able to give the rules on composition, but I mentioned it as another topic that can be covered.

 

[barnum42]

IMHO there are no rules for taking pictures that are for your own personal use. I think that also applies to these contests. The photos that are submitted here are from folks own personal pictures. These photos were taken to remember a moment not to be judged on "photography rules". If people want that then there are other sites they can go to.

I may have used too strong a word with "rules", maybe "guidelines" would be better .

Bottom line for ANY photo, is whether it serves the purpose intended by the photographer, expecially if taken for their own enjoyment.

 

[pisco]

Um, Okay, some people might find this to be rude, but its more of a professional critique. (I just know im gonna catch flak for this....)

A static picture of a well lit prop dervies no emotion nor catches any sort of moment. It requires no technical ability (like having to stand in the quene of POTC for hours on end) nor is it anything unique that is likely never to be recreated again (like finding a country bear in a barber shop). IMO, its a picture that all of you can and should be able to take.

I am far from a professional photographer but I do spend a fair amount of time looking at images from professionals and advanced amatuers and feel that I have learned a thing or two about what makes a good image.

I have to say that the image you posted for this contest, although not as banal in subject matter as most, is technically inferior at the very least. Most of the frame is slightly out of focus, but not in what appears to be a deliberate or artistically meaningful way. You appear in the mirror reflection, which seems like a major no-no to me. And most importantly the framing is just odd.

To me Bamboo7's image, while something anybody could have taken, is extremely well framed and conveys a much better sense of emotion and atmosphere. That's why I voted for it and I suspect why it is winning the contest right now. It's simply a better image.

Sorry if not winning these contests is damaging to your ego, but I honestly think the better image is the one winning here.

 

[tigger248]

This is not directed at anyone. It is meant for everyone. These contests are not worth arguing over.

While I understand what PhotoDave219 is saying, I think you folks are missing one main point. That point being that when I go to WDW like most folks, I'm not there to take photos for contests or publication. I'm taking pic's of my family having fun and of things I think are worth remembering. I'm not really worried about all the technical aspects.

I also don't have the luxury of running over to WDW and taking pic's whenever I want too. i.e. for website contests. So the photos I have are not going to be anything much more than family standing with characters or in special places.

These contests are for fun. The most talented, technically proficient folks don't always win. People vote for what they like and everyone’s taste is different. So if you don't win don't be insulted.

I would also suggest that if you would like constructive criticism from a professional, whether in the photo contest or any of the other contest, then ask for it when you submit your entry.

Take Care,
:wave: ACE

I agree completely with your post.

 

[tigger248]

My point is that i would except that everyone can and should be able to take that picture. Plain and simple. Everyone should.

I think these contests are about trying to get everyone to be better photographers, but i want people to start putting out work thats up there with Bamboo7's and mine and Donickco's.

Plain and simple, i want people to start taking better pictures, and not just accept the mediocraty that seems to have been set as the standard by the awful Kodak photogs in the parks. People really shouldnt accept the kinda @#%$ that they turn out, because its just horrid.

Youve got your opinion; I've got mine.

My pictures generally suck. I know this. I'm not a professional and I don't claim to be. My photos rarely get any votes (I think I got one on the last contest on the last day). Am I bitter? No. I have entered pictures that I like, that I took while having fun and wanted to share. When I take pictures on vacation, it's not for a possible future contest (these contests weren't even thought up yet when I last went to WDW). I live nearly 1,000 miles away. I can't go whenever I feel like it to take pictures with a specific goal (like a contest). Any improvement for me, won't be evident (at least not with Disney photos) until at least next November when I can next make it to Florida.

My camera is probably capable of taking better pictures, but I'm very much an amateur. I had been under the impression that these contests were open to amateurs too. If it would be better, I suppose I could stop entering and "wasting" your time with my inferior pictures (since I won't be able to show any improvement due to lack of resources).

 

[Main Street USA]

My point is that i would except that everyone can and should be able to take that picture. Plain and simple. Everyone should.

I think these contests are about trying to get everyone to be better photographers, but i want people to start putting out work thats up there with Bamboo7's and mine and Donickco's.

Plain and simple, i want people to start taking better pictures, and not just accept the mediocraty that seems to have been set as the standard by the awful Kodak photogs in the parks. People really shouldnt accept the kinda @#%$ that they turn out, because its just horrid.

Youve got your opinion; I've got mine.

Dave, thinking that "anyone" could take that shot is pretty naive of you. First, 99.9% of the people on this planet don't own a camera capable of taking that shot. He had the aperature set on 14. Most models won't do that. I know mine won't.

Second, the composition is pretty impressive, and shows some idea of artistic mind. I'd say about 75% of the people who have ever taken a picture have NO sense of composition whatsoever, and some don't even know what the word means.

Let's give credit where credit is due.

I'll go ahead and critique yours while were at it though. I think it was a great shot as far as capturing a great moment. Not a lot of people can pull it off, but the composition of your photo bothered me from the first time I saw it a few days ago. In my artistic opinion (photographer or not, I am an accomplished artist, and I know composition as well as anyone) It's unbalanced, and not in a way that's pleasing to the eye, but rather distracting. There's too much empty space off to the right with nothing happening.

I've seen a lot of your stuff on here (parade shots and such) and most of them are compositionally beautiful, so I was suprised to see that you picked a photo for this that bothered me.

Still a good shot, though.

 

[Laura]

I wanted to add some comments to this thread too if I may.

1. I don't agree that just anyone can shoot a nice shot of a well lit stationary object. If I asked my mother in law to go to Philharmagic and take a picture of Donald I guarantee it wouldn't be nearly as nice as Kevin's. She'd use a plain old point and shoot with flash and stand about 15 feet away and it would look just terrible. It does take an eye for photography to get a nice photo of even the simplest of objects to take pictures of. It also takes a decent camera with a decent lens most of the time, and not everyone on the planet has one. It's nearly impossible to get a high quality photo contest winning photo with a $5 disposable camera, and sometimes that's all people have.

2. I don't believe the difficulty level for the photographer determines the quality of the photo. Just because a photo is easy to take doesn't mean it's not a great photo. Most of my best photography was accidental - I grabbed a camera, picked it up, and shot and ended up with something great. Then there's times I've been picky about the lens I'm using, I adjusted the camera settings, I got the lighting just how I wanted it, found a good composition, and the photo turned out like crap. Difficulty is no indicator of beauty.

3. I don't think its the least bit fair to be criticizing ANY of the photos in these contests. Not everyone can just jump in the car and hop over to Disney and take random pictures of random objects with tripods and flash attachments whenever they please. Most people live far away and going to Disney is not a photography contest, it's a vacation. When people shoot pictures on vacation they are not usually doing it to win the title of "WDW Magic Photo Contest Winner", they are doing it to capture and remember their vacations. If what people have "in stock" to use in these contests is not professional quality - who cares! It's THEIR photo for THEIR photo album and if they want to enter it in the contests for fun, that's their right. It's not like they are going to hop in the car and drive 12 hours to go and get a better shot just to win the contest. People are using the best pictures they have out of their collections to enter in the contests and I don't think it's right that they should be criticized for not having stopped to take a more "professional" photo on their vacation 3 years ago. I enjoy looking at everyone's photos, not because they should be in national geographic, but because they are these people's cherished memories.

I also think there should be a rule added that the photos entered in the contests need to be over 2 weeks old that so the locals can't just hop over to the park and get a good shot of whatever the current subject is to try and win. (Not accusing anyone of doing that, I just think it would be more fair that way).

Ok there's my 2 cents.

 

[wannab@dis]

Here's my 2 cents / 2 words... WHO CARES?

If you don't like the photo, don't vote for it. If you don't win, oh well, better luck next time. I'm not a professional, heck, I don't even claim to be skilled. I just like some of my pictures and want to enter them. I'm not sure I'll ever win, but hey, it was fun. That's the key here, sharing pictures of having fun in the mouse's house.

 

[DonickCo]

dude... him posting this has nuthing to do with him not winning :brick: .... he is mearly trying help people produce better images.

 

[pisco]

dude... him posting this has nuthing to do with him not winning :brick: .... he is mearly trying help people produce better images.

How is telling us that we are all bad photographers and we need to be "up to his level" helping anybody produce better images? His comments seemed more designed to lord his superiority and status as a professional photographer over the rest of us than to give advice, in my opinion.

And I would disagree that his complaints had nothing to do with the status of the voting. He clearly and directly attacked the image that was winning. That would seem to imply (to me at least) that he was bothered by the way the vote was going.

 

[wannab@dis]

dude... him posting this has nuthing to do with him not winning :brick: .... he is mearly trying help people produce better images.

I was NOT directing my comments to ANYONE specific by no means.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Anyone else wanna take a shot? C'mon, step right up folks, Three for a dollah.....

 

[ChefTigger]

OK I'll Take 3... 1 buck is only 1.23$ canadian tonight so why not.

Ok, I'm new around here and I consider myself one of the lower quality pic poster in theses contests ( my photo skills are good enough for me but my scanner knowledge is way below average so my pics comes out not so good on this site) anyway that's not my point. I get what Dave is trying to tell us, I was seeing all thoses great shot from a couple of guys and wondering if I should still post mine. And well yeah I'll still do and even try to figure out how to scan them better and maybe get a quality digital cam for my next trip. And if some of you tought is comments were rude well try this exercise I did ( cause at first i was a little shock and upset with is comments but) Imagine there was a contest on this site of the thing you do for work...

My example (I am a professional Chef) If there was a culinary contest(make a new Disney recipe) and someone would come up with a cake recipe and put cayenne pepper instead of cocoa powder in it.
Well I would've probably have been a little jumpy and have somewhat similar comment. It's just call being passionate at what you do.

Now lets all be passionate about Disney like we all are and keep theses pictures coming.

And kids don't try the cayenne pepper cake I'm a professional

 

[PhotoDave219]

3 Canadian Dollars is only 1.23? Makes ya wonder if Disney is telling their cast they'll pay them in Canadian $......

Okay. Short, simple and sweet.

A few words on composition.

Fill the frame. You see how you have (roughly) 36mm x 24 mm of space to play with that creates your image? Well USE it. The old cliche of 'if your pictures arent good enough, not close enough' is true in most respects. Want that shot of someone in front of an Icon, like the castle or SSE or the Hat, TOT, whatever.... Dont back the people up so that theyre a little blip in the background, get your family in the foreground (bout 3-5 feet away) and put them slightly off center. Then you have a good picture of your family and have the icon in the background.

Also..... Rather than backing up 20 more feet to get something all the way in the shot (and it be small), try bending down and shooting up.

 

[Main Street USA]

Anyone else wanna take a shot? C'mon, step right up folks, Three for a dollah.....

I don't understand, Dave. According to you, you were giving constructive criticism and advice, yet when others critique your work, they're "taking shots." Not only that, by reading your latest advice in your last post, you've broken your own rules about filling the frame.

 

[tigsmom]

3 Canadian Dollars is only 1.23? Makes ya wonder if Disney is telling their cast they'll pay them in Canadian $......

Okay. Short, simple and sweet.

A few words on composition.

Fill the frame. You see how you have (roughly) 36mm x 24 mm of space to play with that creates your image? Well USE it. The old cliche of 'if your pictures arent good enough, not close enough' is true in most respects. Want that shot of someone in front of an Icon, like the castle or SSE or the Hat, TOT, whatever.... Dont back the people up so that theyre a little blip in the background, get your family in the foreground (bout 3-5 feet away) and put them slightly off center. Then you have a good picture of your family and have the icon in the background.

Also..... Rather than backing up 20 more feet to get something all the way in the shot (and it be small), try bending down and shooting up.

Good advice, thanks. :wave: