Muppets

[Goofyernmost]

Also your example is ridiculous the Muppets 3D show is not anything like Haunted Mansion or It's a Small World. Those are staples that will never be removed. Muppetvision 3D is in no way that.

All a matter of personal opinion my friend. You don't particularly care about it, so it's OK for it to go. How would you react if I said that I really didn't care that much about HM? Would you be pleased if I advocated to bring in the wrecking ball and open up that area for a M&G. You are not the only person on the planet, your tastes shouldn't, anymore then mine, dictate what others would like to see.

For example, I would take one Muppet Theater in exchange for ten Star Wars. I have absolutely no interest in anything Star Wars related and never had. That doesn't mean that I don't think it should be included in the discussion. I'm not that self involved.

PS... I do like HM and go to it every visit, but, it has been literally years since I last took a ride on IASW. Nothing in the park has been more static then that one and I know that it is a "staple", I just don't waste my time on it. So taking your stance, I should feel that it be made into a much smaller world to the extent of it doesn't exist anymore. However, I guess, for me it already doesn't exist and I have no trouble whatsoever, just walking by it.

 

[xstech25]

I've already explained why I think Muppets is a good candidate for removal, at this point I don't think our opinions are going to change.

 

[Brer Panther]

I'd rather lose MuppetVision for Star Wars than what can basically be summed up as "Sit in a theater and watch clips from Frozen on a TV screen as everyone else in the audience screams out the song lyrics".

And if they update the show, they should use archived recordings of Jim Henson for Kermit's new dialogue, as it was his last project.

 

[AEfx]

Waldo is a Muppet. Just the first of their digital muppets that repurposed the animatronic control rigs that they use on stuff like Dinosaur Train or Sid the Science Kid today. He is definitely a dated relic though: Only other appearance was the failed Jim Henson Hour.

This is one of those "agree to disagree" things, because while I understand why you believe that, and it's not an unreasonable belief, I don't believe he's really a Muppet.

A "digital Muppet" is an oxymoron, he shares almost no characteristics that make up a Muppet, to define him like that really means that any CGI character can be called a Muppet.

The only thing linking him as such is that they say it in the movie, and yes, Jim Henson directed the film. I don't dismiss that easily, as I am a huge fan of the man (I dare anyone to read the recent Jim Henson: The Biography by Brian J Jones and not have a tear in their eyes by the end), but it also is well known that he was interested in the then-new CGI tech, and wanted to play with it on Disney's dime. All in a production that was only supposed to be shown for a couple years at most - it was never meant to be a grand presentation of the Muppets, it was a quick and dirty production just to get something in the parks until it was replaced with what was actually going to be there.

In any case, I am glad we agree on the dated relic part - that's why it's such a shame that he is the center of the one theme park attraction based on the Muppets. It's tragic.

 

[Magenta Panther]

And yet somehow, whenever the topic of the Muppets come up, you pop in to say how culturally irrelevant they now are and how immature people who like them are, but you really don't care one way or the other, in reality.

Actually, I don't "pop in" on every topic concerning the Muppets - that's just your delusion. I chose to comment this time because xstech said the Muppets don't add much to the parks, which agrees with what I've been saying, so I spoke up on his behalf. Because he's right. And I'm right. Want proof? Shall we check the scorecard?

1. Remember when the puppets starred in a holiday special with Lady Gaga and RuPaul, and I said what a stupid idea that was and why would anyone want to watch such a thing, and some of you guys jumped on me for that, and then the special aired and was a spectacular flop? That was Magenta Panther 1, Muppets 0.

2. Remember when the second Muppets film came out and bombed worldwide? That was Magenta Panther 2, Muppets 0.

3. Remember when TDA went into the Muppet theater in Disneyland, ripped out all of that old junk and put in a show based on a Disney-generated princess movie, and lo and behold, that place now has capacity crowds and is busier than it's been in years, in fact, probably busier than it's EVER been? That was Magenta Panther 3, Muppets 0.

4. OH, and about the first Muppet film - which some here say was a success - really? Here's an excerpt from an article discussing Disney third-quarter profits, dated 2012:

The unit's revenue for the quarter was $1.6 billion. That was roughly the same as a year earlier but shy of the $1.8 billion analysts had expected. Disney said DVD and Blu-ray sales of "John Carter" and "The Muppets" fell short of last year's sales of "Tron: Legacy" and "Tangled."

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/aug/08/business/la-fi-ct-disney-earns-20120808


So, if the first film was so hugely popular, as some here have asserted, how come the DVD sales stunk so bad that they were on a level with that huge flop John Carter?

Magenta Panther 4, Muppets 0.

So you see, I've been consistently right in my assertion that the Muppets offer little or no value to the Disney company, and you've been consistently wrong, and yet here you are arguing the point again as if you've got a leg to stand on. I'm going to continue to comment on them if I choose to do so, because up to now my comments have been proven, by facts and events, to be 100% correct. Now, the new TV show might hit, or miss, who can say? But that remains to be seen, and again, as of now, I've only been speaking the truth about them.

I'll leave you with this:

Later, baby.

 

[Matt_Black]

You put a lot of time and effort and, dare I say it, PASSION over a topic that you claim to have no stake in.

 

[AEfx]

Shall we check the scorecard?...

Magenta Panther 4, Muppets 0.

Your manifesto has completely convinced me that you are in no way ridiculously obsessed with hating the Muppets.

 

[Matt_Black]

Your manifesto has completely convinced me that you are in no way ridiculously obsessed with hating the Muppets.

He's very much the Fozzie to our Waldorf & Statler, isn't he?

My picture above does bring up a point he neglected- if the Muppets are so "done", why does Lipton use them in advertising campaigns?

 

[NearTheEars]

See, I adore the Muppets. And I always go to Muppetvision. But then I always walk away with a hollow pit in my stomach. (And of course past the gift shop, where I kick myself for not buying the Backstage Playset when I saw it back in the day, which now goes for between $500 and $1000 on eBay).

The pre-show is still fun. I'm always a sucker for A Net Full Of Jello, too.

Then I sit down in the theater. I try not to notice that, really, while it's servicable - it's not really that quality, you can tell the projection walls are projections. It's decent for what it is, but certainly isn't up to the standards of what Disney can do.

The show starts, and I'm relieved when all the few animatronics work.

The film begins, and I'm excited. And then a minute or two in and I remember what I always block out...this isn't a movie about the Muppets, its about that insipid Waldo, briefly guest starring some Muppets. A character that was outdated by the time Clinton took office. They spend so much time on the computer generated aspect it's nauseating, it was neat in 1991 but in 2016 when more animated characters are CG than not it's just groan-inducing (I would think kids today wouldn't get it, because they don't even know the difference because everything they see is CG anyway).

I get a brief glimpse or two of my beloved Piggy...then we go into the boring and not terribly Muppet-y patriotic sequence...more of that insipid non-Muppet Waldo...something with that briefly in the Muppets bunny...then the kind of cool ending makes me go "But how can it be over? I barely saw any Muppets!"

I walk out of the theater quietly, at least glad that the Muppets have something at WDW. Then I get really sad when I remember that this was the last Muppet project that Jim Henson worked on. How sad he would be that 25 years later, it's the only thing at a Disney park that features the Muppets.

Then I think how embarrassed he would be because this was never meant to last five years, much less 25 - it was a placeholder, gave him a chance to play with CG on Disney's dime, and was never intended to be permanent. There were several other Muppet attractions that were supposed to end up in that spot, by the middle of the 90's there should have been a real show with animatronics, the Great Muppet Movie ride, and a crazy themed restaurant. I think of how he'd probably just wish them to put it out of his misery since it's so not The Muppets, and so should not be the only physically standing monument to them.

And then I walk over to Star Tours, and block it out of my memory until my next trip, where I think "hey! gotta go see the Muppets!" and the entire process rinses, repeats.

I'm not a Waldo fan at all, but wasn't his tech supposed to be impressive because a puppeteer was controlling the movement of the CGI character in real time?

Now what makes that tech less impressive, though, is that there real isn't a good use for it outside of maybe a live stage show. Which they aren't doing anywhere.

Old Jim thought it was the next big thing though. Sad he didn't get to expand on it.

 

[Magenta Panther]

Your manifesto has completely convinced me that you are in no way ridiculously obsessed with hating the Muppets.

Your reply has convinced me that you've totally and willfully missed the point. Plus you're wrong. What I might have an obsession with is that the Disney Parks stay as "Disney" as possible, without being overly cluttered with off-studio IPs. The parks don't need them. The Muppets got tossed out of DCA, and is that park suffering for it? Nope. I'm not saying that because I "hate" them. I say it because it's true. Frankly, I find the reactions to the truth - "the Muppets ought to stay in the parks because that show is the last thing Jim Henson did before he died and because I wuv them" to be without merit and don't add any credibility to the opposing point of view. It's all "oh you hate the Muppets, that's why you say those things! You're a bad person!" Wow, what a rebuttal.

I've also said that I think the Jungle Cruise (which Walt himself had a hand in) and Country Bears ought to go too. They were clever in their day, but they haven't aged well, IMO. The last time I went on Jungle Cruise, I felt embarrassed for it. It is beyond cheesy. I admit I don't know what could be put in its place, plus, since the Adventureland Veranda is going to be themed to that ride (apparently), it looks like the ride isn't going anywhere. Maybe if I looked at it as being an example of high camp, I would enjoy it more. But I don't think it was meant to be campy. It was supposed to be adventurous because, you know, Adventureland. But it's probably staying so that's that. My point is, I don't spare anything if I genuinely believe it deserves criticism. If you can come up with a real rebuttal, then that might give me a chance to see things your way. But if all you do is dump on me for telling the truth, then you've already lost the argument. Next!

 

[Magenta Panther]

You put a lot of time and effort and, dare I say it, PASSION over a topic that you claim to have no stake in.

Oh, but I do have a stake in it: making you look foolish. And that's fun.

Magenta Panther 1,243 (you DO keep dragging this argument out, don't you), Matt Black 0.

 

[AEfx]

Your reply has convinced me that you've totally and willfully missed the point. Plus you're wrong. What I might have an obsession with is that the Disney Parks stay as "Disney" as possible, without being overly cluttered with off-studio IPs. The parks don't need them. The Muppets got tossed out of DCA, and is that park suffering for it? Nope. I'm not saying that because I "hate" them. I say it because it's true. Frankly, I find the reactions to the truth - "the Muppets ought to stay in the parks because that show is the last thing Jim Henson did before he died and because I wuv them" to be without merit and don't add any credibility to the opposing point of view. It's all "oh you hate the Muppets, that's why you say those things! You're a bad person!" Wow, what a rebuttal.

I've also said that I think the Jungle Cruise (which Walt himself had a hand in) and Country Bears ought to go too. They were clever in their day, but they haven't aged well, IMO. The last time I went on Jungle Cruise, I felt embarrassed for it. It is beyond cheesy. I admit I don't know what could be put in its place, plus, since the Adventureland Veranda is going to be themed to that ride (apparently), it looks like the ride isn't going anywhere. Maybe if I looked at it as being an example of high camp, I would enjoy it more. But I don't think it was meant to be campy. It was supposed to be adventurous because, you know, Adventureland. But it's probably staying so that's that. My point is, I don't spare anything if I genuinely believe it deserves criticism. If you can come up with a real rebuttal, then that might give me a chance to see things your way. But if all you do is dump on me for telling the truth, then you've already lost the argument. Next!

Well then.

Thank you for adding an additional 350 words to your manifesto, but you already had me. I am even now more super convinced that you are in no way ridiculously obsessed with hating the Muppets.

 

[Magenta Panther]

Well then.

Thank you for adding an additional 350 words to your manifesto, but you already had me. I am even now more super convinced that you are in no way ridiculously obsessed with hating the Muppets.

And so you continue to lean on a mischaracterization instead of offering a rebuttal. Oh well. Next!

 

[Matt_Black]

Oh, but I do have a stake in it: making you look foolish. And that's fun.

Magenta Panther 1,243 (you DO keep dragging this argument out, don't you), Matt Black 0.

Let's see, who's posts in this thread are more liked? Let's count yours, and now mine, carry the two... Yeah, I sure look foolish what with all my beloved comments.

But maybe you're right. Maybe I am the fool in this debate. Well, in Shakespeare's King Lear, The Fool was the character who was right the whole time, so I can live with that. BOOM! Literary burn!

 

[PhotoDave219]

Let's see, who's posts in this thread are more liked? Let's count yours, and now mine, carry the two... Yeah, I sure look foolish what with all my beloved comments.

But maybe you're right. Maybe I am the fool in this debate. Well, in Shakespeare's King Lear, The Fool was the character who was right the whole time, so I can live with that. BOOM! Literary burn!

Hey Matt..... Its time to start the music. Its time to light the lights....

 

[AEfx]

And so you continue to lean on a mischaracterization instead of offering a rebuttal. Oh well. Next!

Oh dude lighten up, LOL.

Despite your presumption, there is nothing to rebut.

Disney has horribly mismanaged the Muppets. They did what Disney always is accused of doing, they "Disney-fied" them, completely ignored the core of their appeal. They treated them just like they would any other characters by trying to fit them in all kinds of different molds because they are used to more generic characters who can be just inserted into anything, when the key to the Muppets was actually their subversive nature and the fact they were not like traditional Disney characters. That was the core of their entire being - the imperfection and contrast to creamy smooth shiny virginal Disney characters.

There is no argument that they have performed poorly compared to the possibilities or expectations.

I do think the purchase was a valuable lesson for Disney - I don't for a moment think that how Disney has handled Marvel, and now Star Wars, isn't highly influenced by what they have done to the Muppets. "We don't want another Muppets" is reflected very directly in their hands-off creative nature and particularly with Star Wars their preservation of the authenticity of what the fans loved about the franchise to begin with.

All that said, that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I (and apparently others, who mention it more than I do - I usually just grin and nod my head and move to the next post) can't help but notice that you show up every time the Muppets get mentioned (like that guy in college that always seemed to knock on the door ten seconds after you lit up like it's some homing device). And each time you express your extreme dislike of them.

Today was especially funny because I really don't think you realize what your first post sounded like - when you preceded to go over your entire history of discussing them and how you have predicted every single thing and how right you were and how much these Muppets just suck in your estimation. It's cliche, but yes, you doth protest a bit much. And then when I admittedly chided you about it, you went on and did the same thing, again. You are setting them up like no one since Dean Martin.

It sounds like you have an awful lot of baggage here about the Muppets, guy. I don't know what they did to you, or what it's all about - but I think Avatar is among the worst pieces of garbage ever to play in a cinema, and while I will mention it from time to time, or correct folks when I think they are wrong about it, if I ever went on about it like you about the dang Muppets I'd expect to be taken off to the funny farm and medicated until they figured out just what was wrong with me.

It's OK - they can't hurt you. They aren't real!

 

[AEfx]

​

And now to clean the palates...

 

[Matt_Black]

And you know if the new ABC series becomes a hit, he'll either downplay the success ("Thanks to netflix and other services, network television is dying anyway and it will take the Muppets with them!") or he'll flip-flop the way he did with Frozen and Big Hero 6.

 

[Magenta Panther]

Let's see, who's posts in this thread are more liked? Let's count yours, and now mine, carry the two... Yeah, I sure look foolish what with all my beloved comments.

But maybe you're right. Maybe I am the fool in this debate. Well, in Shakespeare's King Lear, The Fool was the character who was right the whole time, so I can live with that. BOOM! Literary burn!

You and your "beloved" felt icons have certainly found your audience. Pity there weren't enough to keep the last movie from flopping, but oh well.

Speaking of Shakespeare, there's a another "Fool" over at Miceage who says he went into the Frozen theater and started talking loudly about Macbeth, hoping it'll doom the show so the Muppets will return. I'm not kidding:

Lastly, that sing-along. I'll put it like this. I intentionally wore a Muppets shirt and Kermit ears to see if anyone would do or say anything. Truth be told, one guest said "You know they're gone and not coming back." Pretty big words to say to a guy who just wants to try and honor the REAL owners of the theater. By the time we were inside, I literally went back and forth with my friends about if they have seen the play, Macbeth (see what I'm getting at?). Needless to say, some things did happen. Not going into many specifics, but Anna may want to see into that troublesome mic and Elsa with her vocals. A little part of me said "SUCCESS" but most of me said "These are actors trying to put on a good show, even if they themselves don't like it." Show ends, I still end my time there a bitter old man.

http://micechat.com/forums/disneyland-resort/200098-frozen-fun-rather-angry-review.htm

"Bitter", huh? Matt, I think we've found your soulmate!