"Mouse Arrest" & LPS Monitored Bracelets

flynnibus

Premium Member
In fact, with free transportation and sometimes free dining, Disney can already inflict financial "punishment" on their guests for venturing off property as such adventures will bring about large expenses that otherwise were not budgeted in the Disney vacation package (the one price that was bought and paid for on plastic that the guest is now paying 18% interest for).

Ok, none of the above has to do with MBs... and is as it was before...

I expect that Disney's pricing is going to be dramatically more competitive and "value driven" in 2014 given the competition from Universal. If NGE can somehow capture these guests into inclusive vacation packages at prices that are perceived as being better "value" than Universal, the opportunity always exists to use this technology to incrementally extract more revenue from guests when they finally arrive. In this manner NGE would be a great success.

Again.. nothing on the punishing guests front...

NGE is without a shadow of a doubt is Disney's largest and last attempt at holding WDW together as one self-contained resort with one common goal. If this fails, all the technology that has been deployed will be analyzing how and why guests are leaving property and not doing what Disney wants them to do to a stunning degree.

And again.. where is the punishing guests again?

I don't disagree with anything you wrote.. it just doesn't support the OPs theory that DIsney is going to punish people who don't stay loyal to Mickey.

If Disney's guests are choosing to take their non-theme park day and are spending it at Disney Springs or at the pool, Disney is going to know this and they are also likely not going to care

No - there is a very important distinction here. Disney has an IDEA of what you were up to... they don't know with high confidence. The data is incomplete and incomplete data is ill suited for things that people see as a burden or punishment.

Imagine if your credit card company billed you for things 'they thought you might have purchased..' or if your employer started docing your pay based on partial information. People would have a cow! And that is why anything dealing with billing demands absolute completeness and audit trails to validate the numbers.

The same thing applies here... you can use incomplete information to build models of behavior and observe trends.. even down to the individual level (if you cared..)... but it's an entirely different beast to start throwing financial burdens on customers based on those assumptions.
 

Tom

Beta Return
To those of you who fear this movement by Disney....

Are you not a member of any grocery store's rewards card program? They track your buying habits and spit out coupons and mailers based on what you buy, or what you don't buy.

Have you ever been to a WalMart, Meijer, or even a casino? Make one suspicious gesture, and they're following your every move around the store/casino with cameras. Disney will know you went to the Magic Kingdom....they won't zoom in on your face with a camera and watch you walk around the park.

Do you not use cell phone? Cell companies can locate you to within a few feet, no matter where you are.

Furthermore, do you not use a smart phone or browse the web while on it? Your phone is reporting your location, and as such, not only do your apps act appropriately, but ads on websites and YouTube videos will be catered to your current location. And this occurs no matter where you are...not just isolated to private property.

Do you never use Google or Facebook or Amazon? Alone, each of them already know more about you than Disney ever will.

Disney is a private entity, and other than watching you in your hotel room or the bathroom, they can "track" you however they want when you're on their property and utilizing their resources.

Arguments citing rogue CMs seizing the database and publishing it on the internet are bogus. It's no more or less likely than someone at Amazon doing the same thing. Disney has always stored credit card information, so nothing is changing. They still have to maintain 100% PCI Compliance, and their databases are still protected using industry standard software.

The Magic Bands themselves are dumb devices with serial numbers embedded in them and a real or fake name printed on the outside. No CC info is in the band. Your kids' birthday isn't in the band. Nobody will steal your identity by scanning your band.

I just don't get the fear and tin-foil mentality about this. If you don't want companies knowing your habits or trends, you need to find a nice cave somewhere.
 

Prince-1

Well-Known Member
That's true. You could do it yourself. My first RFID wallet was like a box. When i dropped it, everything spilled out all over, which is a bit of a nuisance. The second time I dropped it, the latch broke. So, I ponied up the $20...it was actually $18 and change, but I rounded up.

I'm very happy with my little wallet and it works well. It is not as cute as many wallets, but I don't worry about people with scanners stealing my numbers. As Murphy's Law would have it, I haven't dropped the new one that can't break, lol.

You could absolutely make your own, though. :)


I don't think it's irrational to worry about RFID theft. It happens. I read about in the WSJ. But I always try to be prepared, prevent bad things, etc. Cautious. Not paranoid. :)

Worrying that Disney will know you went to Uni...nah. I wouldn't. :)

No I know RFID theft occurs but
Really? I would think knowing how many days people spend off property is exactly the type of information I'd be interested in if I was crunching data for Disney.

There is no way for Disney to know if you are off property to go to Universal or to do anything else. And even if they do that (still don't think they will) they still wont do anything to affect your vacation as the OP implied. And IF they did and see how many leave to maybe go to Universal or elsewhere then maybe they will start to realize that WDW needs more than just FLE. Maybe its might be a nice kick in the pants for them.
 

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
In my original post, I asked if people were concerned about being "punished" for leaving property. And almost immediately followed it up with "we are not talking about a rational fan base now are we". I wasn't saying Disney WOULD punish people. Just wondering if people were concerned about it. Some people view Disney as a very personal thing and not a business entity.

As for myself, I am local and therefore don't stay on property so for us it wouldn't apply.

Somewhere on page 4 of this thread I commented that I won't be putting the tracking bands on my daughters. I therefore am not worried about Beavis with the iPads or overly friendly slightly creepy older dude with the iPads as, as I stated, my daughters won't be wearing one of the tracking bands. I work in the local news scene and have already covered 3 Disney employees either viewing child or actually agreeing to meet up with underage children for sex. Beavis having access to my 17 year old daughters personal info including local address doeasn't concern me nearly as much a overly friendly slightly creepy older dude knowing that my 13 year old daughter lives 2 apartment complexes over, that tomorrow is her birthday, and she likes Mickey Ice Cream Bars and her favorite character is Daryl Dixon, oh wait, I meant Mushu.

But as I said, for us personally, security isn't a concern as I won't even give them a chance to have the info. My point in the post on page 4 was since I refuse to play along, how will this effect our access to "the system".

Yes, it is 2 different issues. But it is NOT "hit the moving target". One was a question of those who stay on site. The other is my concern about our access to the system. I personally see us really getting screwed two fold by being locals and not planning 60 out compounded by me refusing to play nice with the mouse and giving up all my kids personal info.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Metrics are not a bad thing. They drop in NFL, and attendance goes up at Magic Kingdom...but how many people actually WENT to NFL. How much time did they spend there. When did they walk near a ride but skip it and do something else? Why did they do that? What length was the line at that time? Was that a factor, or was it something else?

All of these questions can be fairly accurately measured using metrics from the Bands (and other features of MM+). This hopefully gives Park Operations a better idea of where people are going and what they are doing...and is far more accurate than relying on data collected from CMs or inconsistent Parks Research people.

Is Animal Kingdom a full day or a half day park? They already know when people enter and leave, but what they DON'T know is where they go after that.

As a side note...I wonder if they will add the tracking to hotels...that would be interesting.

Anyhow...

I don't see it as a big deal. I'm on property, and if I don't want them to track me, fine...I'll just get the RFID card (which doesn't have the longrange bluetooth that the band does which is required for detailed positioning).

Additionally...and this is something I can't recall...doesn't the MDE App access your phone's location services? Hrm...that would ALSO give Disney your location on and off property. Good way to find out how much "leak" they have to Uni/SW/Legoland...no band required.

Just a thought.

It's the guests with rental cars taking their RFID bracelets and tickets off property that are far more interesting.

Two things occured to me while reading your post.

If they really want to find out who is "leaving property" and "coming back"...outside of having the app access Location Services...There are two other things they could add that would give them some really neat metrics to play with.

They could install license plate scanners at all the access points. They could even go crazy with that and put them all over property...but, if you had them at the main "disney gates" (not the park gates) they could see who left and came back...or vice versa. This would give:

a) A good idea of how many people are staying off property
b) A good idea of how many people are on property, but leaving to go do something off property

And yes, it would sound VERY big brother...but...there's no reason why it's illegal or immoral. They don't have to run your tags...just collect the tag info direction and time. Then you can build reports based off of the duration, and make pretty solid assumptions from that.

So, if someone leaves at 8a and doesn't come back until midnight, there's a pretty strong chance that guest went to one of the offsite parks...for example.

The second thing that occured to me would be if they added features (like Disneyland has) to encourage people to use the MDE as their complete trip planning tool...INCLUDING offsite offerings. So, while I doubt they'd go as far as Disneyland and actually offer tickets or promote offsite stuff at WDW...they could at least allow you to plug in an "offsite Park" and then choose which one as one of your "Park Days"...

Then they would also have a pretty good idea of what people are planning to do offsite and when in their trip they do it. Also, unlike Bands alone, it would let them know exactly WHERE people plan to go to spend their time offsite, at least at some reasonable level.

For example...this family didn't add Disney to their stay on Thursday. Currently, they can add a note that says "Universal" in MDE...but probably won't. However, if Disney put it on the App as a choice, they are much more likely to do so.

Of course this would mean that Disney would be loosely "marketing" other area options...so, the question is...is that risk worth the information gathered? I would say yes. Then they can target surveys to those people to attempt to find out why they went offsite.

Though, I suspect the common answer is...because they have stuff I want to see that Disney doesn't. :p
 

Tom

Beta Return
Metrics are not a bad thing. They drop in NFL, and attendance goes up at Magic Kingdom...but how many people actually WENT to NFL. How much time did they spend there. When did they walk near a ride but skip it and do something else? Why did they do that? What length was the line at that time? Was that a factor, or was it something else?

All of these questions can be fairly accurately measured using metrics from the Bands (and other features of MM+). This hopefully gives Park Operations a better idea of where people are going and what they are doing...and is far more accurate than relying on data collected from CMs or inconsistent Parks Research people.

Is Animal Kingdom a full day or a half day park? They already know when people enter and leave, but what they DON'T know is where they go after that.

As a side note...I wonder if they will add the tracking to hotels...that would be interesting.

Anyhow...

I don't see it as a big deal. I'm on property, and if I don't want them to track me, fine...I'll just get the RFID card (which doesn't have the longrange bluetooth that the band does which is required for detailed positioning).

Additionally...and this is something I can't recall...doesn't the MDE App access your phone's location services? Hrm...that would ALSO give Disney your location on and off property. Good way to find out how much "leak" they have to Uni/SW/Legoland...no band required.

Just a thought.



Two things occured to me while reading your post.

If they really want to find out who is "leaving property" and "coming back"...outside of having the app access Location Services...There are two other things they could add that would give them some really neat metrics to play with.

They could install license plate scanners at all the access points. They could even go crazy with that and put them all over property...but, if you had them at the main "disney gates" (not the park gates) they could see who left and came back...or vice versa. This would give:

a) A good idea of how many people are staying off property
b) A good idea of how many people are on property, but leaving to go do something off property

And yes, it would sound VERY big brother...but...there's no reason why it's illegal or immoral. They don't have to run your tags...just collect the tag info direction and time. Then you can build reports based off of the duration, and make pretty solid assumptions from that.

So, if someone leaves at 8a and doesn't come back until midnight, there's a pretty strong chance that guest went to one of the offsite parks...for example.

The second thing that occured to me would be if they added features (like Disneyland has) to encourage people to use the MDE as their complete trip planning tool...INCLUDING offsite offerings. So, while I doubt they'd go as far as Disneyland and actually offer tickets or promote offsite stuff at WDW...they could at least allow you to plug in an "offsite Park" and then choose which one as one of your "Park Days"...

Then they would also have a pretty good idea of what people are planning to do offsite and when in their trip they do it. Also, unlike Bands alone, it would let them know exactly WHERE people plan to go to spend their time offsite, at least at some reasonable level.

For example...this family didn't add Disney to their stay on Thursday. Currently, they can add a note that says "Universal" in MDE...but probably won't. However, if Disney put it on the App as a choice, they are much more likely to do so.

Of course this would mean that Disney would be loosely "marketing" other area options...so, the question is...is that risk worth the information gathered? I would say yes. Then they can target surveys to those people to attempt to find out why they went offsite.

Though, I suspect the common answer is...because they have stuff I want to see that Disney doesn't. :p

Fantastic synopsis and analysis.

Good point on MDE being able to report your location while offsite....but now you've added a layer of foil to several people's hats :rolleyes:

Ultimately, we have to step back and say, "CAN Disney track my individual movements?" The answer is yes. But the follow up question is, "WILL they track MY individual movements?" The answer is likely no, in a general sense.

They won't assign a person or set of resources to follow me, Tom, around the parks and stalk me, per se. But their massive Big Data collection will indeed be collecting packets of information on my general behaviors and actions, in a more global sense. Big picture, not little picture.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
In my original post, I asked if people were concerned about being "punished" for leaving property. And almost immediately followed it up with "we are not talking about a rational fan base now are we". I wasn't saying Disney WOULD punish people. Just wondering if people were concerned about it. Some people view Disney as a very personal thing and not a business entity.
Disney already has the tools to enact such a system (Key to the World card and Annual Passes), and they have not. As we have seen, there is little to no interest in cultivating high spenders with additional perks. If anything, Disney seems more likely to "punish" those who spend the most, because their raving "foamers" who will buy anything and pay any price.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Tracking every individual's every move, while technically possible, would be quite expensive with little or no return on investment.
I know this may light the "paranoia" fires...but, really it wouldn't be all that expensive, at least if you don't try and combine it all real time.

I mean, for less than 2 grand you can add what, about 20 Terabytes of RAID storage...that's nothing with the sorts of budgets they are playing with.

While I suspect the rest of your comment is largely correct...were I the IM /designer for this, I most certainly would want to have an end goal of collecting the whereabouts of everyone. Why?

Well, it's not because I'm big brother. It's because Execs are gonna have a fight in a planning meeting one day about what guests are doing (or not doing), and then come to me and say "Hey...don't you have this information?"...so, I'd rather have it.

More information is always better.

This is why I keylog / screen record my client machines (costs money for storage, and bandwidth...but I do it anyway), this is why I record every single phone call that goes through my phone systems (costs money for storage / server time...but I do it anyway), list goes on.

One day some dummy operations guy (or girl) is gonna come to me and say "Hey, we have this issue and we really don't want to try and figure out a solution for us, so here...can you figure this out for us? Oh, and we really need this info in an hour because we have a follow up conference call about this." This is an increasing problem with IT...and how it is used, but it's one that is inevitable.

If you've never read "One Minute Manager Meets the Monkey", give it a gander. I suspect a lot of modern managers have...but, what they've become extremely good at is "passing the monkey"...instead of managing it's care (without actually feeding it themselves).

What I mean by that is that is...instead of thinking a small amount and actually analyzing the situation and coming up with a solution...they'll say "Well, I would give you that answer, but I requested this information from IT and they haven't given it to me yet." And, all their cohorts who have to call the helpdesk to set up their email on their iPhone (in other words...knowing how to use twitter and reading gizmodo once a month does not make you a "technically savvy" or even barely knowledgable) will nod their heads.

Then a few scathing emails go out with senior managers attached so IT will "get the lead out" and automagically make it happen.

Yep...I know that game. So...I'd want as much info as possible, so that when those requests come (and they will...maybe not today, maybe not next week...but they will), I have it to provide.

And, I completely think the IT dept at Disney is one that is browbeaten by autocratic techno-n00bs who think because they can download an app from the iTunes store they understand what IT is and what it does...oh, and it should be free. Because Google works awesome and is free, right? So is facebook, right? So...why can't you jam out Facebook? It was just programmed by a silly college kid, right?

<facepalms and closes rant>

Anyhow, my point is...it wouldn't be that difficult to do. Especially on their budgets. You wouldn't need to capture much (Band UID, Geocoordinates or PoleID (likely the latter, which then can be related to Geocoordinates for things like mapping) and Time/Date). That's it. Three tables, really.

One for Band / Customer data. One for PoleIDs and Geocoordinates of the Pole (three, maybe four columns max). One for binding the two together.

I dunno...random thoughts, I know...but...I wanted to share.
 

King Racoon 77

Thank you sir. You were an inspiration.
Premium Member
They can monitor your purchases now without this $2.5 billion dollar investment, without these RFID readers, without these bands... All they need to do is, and I stated this before, to add the purchase to your database when you use the KTTW card as a charge card... With the RFID technology, they will now know when Monty enters Emporium, not just when Monty buys a shirt from Emporium... That is the difference today... And again, no paranoia there... Nothing nefarious going on with that...

And I disagree about tracking each individual's movements would yield little to no return on investment... Again, they now know Monty has entered Emporium, and has spent 10 minutes looking at the tee shirts... apparently, Monty is conflicted, do I buy this shirt now or no?.. Well, Monty gets a text/email: MONTY BUY THIS SHIRT WITHIN THE NEXT 5 MINUTES AND ENJOY 15% OFF!!! Monty buys the shirt... Now, spread that out over 50,000 people a day, for 365 days a year... Yea, they are going to get a nice return on their investment even if half fall for the marketing ploy...

I will agree with you regarding the ebb and flow of guests... And this is where I see this as a positive... They will be able to, with greater ease, determine the most heavily crowded areas... And they can help disperse those crowds... Send a text/email to half the people of a free FP for rides spread over the park to use in the next hour... People think they got a deal and run...

I, for one, do not subscribe to Disney's evil plot that some do with this technology... I'm going to use it in October... I'm waiting for the confirmation email that my bands have been shipped (still have 10 days to customize them so it will be at least another 2 weeks before I get them)... I made my FP+ choices already... I want to test this out for myself before saying if I hate it or like it... I do hate they spent the money on this and not attractions, but it is what it is, and no amount of complaining about it will change things... I can say I don't like the choices of only 3 attractions, but hey, who knows? Maybe they tweek that too... :)
That wouldn't work for me as i don't carry my mobile to the park .
 
I mean, for less than 2 grand you can add what, about 20 Terabytes of RAID storage...that's nothing with the sorts of budgets they are playing with.

That's highly doubtful for corporate quality storage. It's more likely that backup/disaster recovery for 20 TB would exceed $2k/month.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Metrics are not a bad thing. They drop in NFL, and attendance goes up at Magic Kingdom...but how many people actually WENT to NFL. How much time did they spend there. When did they walk near a ride but skip it and do something else? Why did they do that? What length was the line at that time? Was that a factor, or was it something else?

All of these questions can be fairly accurately measured using metrics from the Bands (and other features of MM+). This hopefully gives Park Operations a better idea of where people are going and what they are doing...and is far more accurate than relying on data collected from CMs or inconsistent Parks Research people.

Is Animal Kingdom a full day or a half day park? They already know when people enter and leave, but what they DON'T know is where they go after that.

As a side note...I wonder if they will add the tracking to hotels...that would be interesting.

Anyhow...

I don't see it as a big deal. I'm on property, and if I don't want them to track me, fine...I'll just get the RFID card (which doesn't have the longrange bluetooth that the band does which is required for detailed positioning).

Additionally...and this is something I can't recall...doesn't the MDE App access your phone's location services? Hrm...that would ALSO give Disney your location on and off property. Good way to find out how much "leak" they have to Uni/SW/Legoland...no band required.

Just a thought.



Two things occured to me while reading your post.

If they really want to find out who is "leaving property" and "coming back"...outside of having the app access Location Services...There are two other things they could add that would give them some really neat metrics to play with.

They could install license plate scanners at all the access points. They could even go crazy with that and put them all over property...but, if you had them at the main "disney gates" (not the park gates) they could see who left and came back...or vice versa. This would give:

a) A good idea of how many people are staying off property
b) A good idea of how many people are on property, but leaving to go do something off property

And yes, it would sound VERY big brother...but...there's no reason why it's illegal or immoral. They don't have to run your tags...just collect the tag info direction and time. Then you can build reports based off of the duration, and make pretty solid assumptions from that.

So, if someone leaves at 8a and doesn't come back until midnight, there's a pretty strong chance that guest went to one of the offsite parks...for example.

The second thing that occured to me would be if they added features (like Disneyland has) to encourage people to use the MDE as their complete trip planning tool...INCLUDING offsite offerings. So, while I doubt they'd go as far as Disneyland and actually offer tickets or promote offsite stuff at WDW...they could at least allow you to plug in an "offsite Park" and then choose which one as one of your "Park Days"...

Then they would also have a pretty good idea of what people are planning to do offsite and when in their trip they do it. Also, unlike Bands alone, it would let them know exactly WHERE people plan to go to spend their time offsite, at least at some reasonable level.

For example...this family didn't add Disney to their stay on Thursday. Currently, they can add a note that says "Universal" in MDE...but probably won't. However, if Disney put it on the App as a choice, they are much more likely to do so.

Of course this would mean that Disney would be loosely "marketing" other area options...so, the question is...is that risk worth the information gathered? I would say yes. Then they can target surveys to those people to attempt to find out why they went offsite.

Though, I suspect the common answer is...because they have stuff I want to see that Disney doesn't. :p

What makes you think that Disney does NOT have License Plate Scanners, and RFID sensors to track guests vehicular movements ie bus vs rental car???
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I know this may light the "paranoia" fires...but, really it wouldn't be all that expensive, at least if you don't try and combine it all real time.

I mean, for less than 2 grand you can add what, about 20 Terabytes of RAID storage...that's nothing with the sorts of budgets they are playing with.

While I suspect the rest of your comment is largely correct...were I the IM /designer for this, I most certainly would want to have an end goal of collecting the whereabouts of everyone. Why?

Well, it's not because I'm big brother. It's because Execs are gonna have a fight in a planning meeting one day about what guests are doing (or not doing), and then come to me and say "Hey...don't you have this information?"...so, I'd rather have it.

More information is always better.

This is why I keylog / screen record my client machines (costs money for storage, and bandwidth...but I do it anyway), this is why I record every single phone call that goes through my phone systems (costs money for storage / server time...but I do it anyway), list goes on.

One day some dummy operations guy (or girl) is gonna come to me and say "Hey, we have this issue and we really don't want to try and figure out a solution for us, so here...can you figure this out for us? Oh, and we really need this info in an hour because we have a follow up conference call about this." This is an increasing problem with IT...and how it is used, but it's one that is inevitable.

If you've never read "One Minute Manager Meets the Monkey", give it a gander. I suspect a lot of modern managers have...but, what they've become extremely good at is "passing the monkey"...instead of managing it's care (without actually feeding it themselves).

What I mean by that is that is...instead of thinking a small amount and actually analyzing the situation and coming up with a solution...they'll say "Well, I would give you that answer, but I requested this information from IT and they haven't given it to me yet." And, all their cohorts who have to call the helpdesk to set up their email on their iPhone (in other words...knowing how to use twitter and reading gizmodo once a month does not make you a "technically savvy" or even barely knowledgable) will nod their heads.

Then a few scathing emails go out with senior managers attached so IT will "get the lead out" and automagically make it happen.

Yep...I know that game. So...I'd want as much info as possible, so that when those requests come (and they will...maybe not today, maybe not next week...but they will), I have it to provide.

And, I completely think the IT dept at Disney is one that is browbeaten by autocratic techno-n00bs who think because they can download an app from the iTunes store they understand what IT is and what it does...oh, and it should be free. Because Google works awesome and is free, right? So is facebook, right? So...why can't you jam out Facebook? It was just programmed by a silly college kid, right?

<facepalms and closes rant>

Anyhow, my point is...it wouldn't be that difficult to do. Especially on their budgets. You wouldn't need to capture much (Band UID, Geocoordinates or PoleID (likely the latter, which then can be related to Geocoordinates for things like mapping) and Time/Date). That's it. Three tables, really.

One for Band / Customer data. One for PoleIDs and Geocoordinates of the Pole (three, maybe four columns max). One for binding the two together.

I dunno...random thoughts, I know...but...I wanted to share.

You probably want velocity data along with PoleID, GeoCoordinates - helps determine level of interest and you should collect all PoleID's which can hear the Mouse Arrest Band, at that point you have all the data you need and each sample is probably less than 64 bytes uncompressed.

Those of us who KNOW how this stuff works are scared spitless
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
And where are these incredibly small units being deployed? Or are you confusing the in-car transponders with the readers mounted above the lanes?

I design systems which use these for a living, Small antennas are easy to hide when is the last time you saw a WiFi antenna at Disney, Yet they are there or did you think that the WiFi signal is placed there by magic???
 

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