Monorail Thoughts... Not sure where to post...

[Goofyernmost]

Generally per passenger mile monorails are much safer. Buses hit people, cars, trucks, barriers, other buses all the time. Drive back to the Monorail shop, the ground floor on the East side is bus maintenance. Off to the side are the damaged buses waiting for repair. Sad.

Monorails are grade separated so generally no one, car or bus hits a monorail. Technology can make things even safer with active train tracking so the dispatcher knows exactly where every train is. Adding an catwalk between the tracks is not difficult, most new mass transit monorails have these. So you can just walk to safety.

The real transportation problem at Walt Disney World is balance. The large bus terminals at each park are there partly because Disney didn't expand their Monorail system. Disney only bought buses because they are cheap solution to a growing Resort. At the same time Disney should have also added more Hotel boats and Ferry Boats and added an East-West Monorail line. This way if one mode is experiencing a problem the others can take up the slack.

Today - Certain times of the day the road in from of the Contemporary is total gridlock and the water bridge tunnel limits any widening of the road. DTD is also gridlocked with cars and buses the solutions is better boat transportation for the DTD area hotels. Add a monorail to take some pressure off the roads and buses with quick service to Typhoon Lagoon, EPCOT (MK areas), EPCOT Resorts, MGM, Blizzard Beach, Animal Kingdom and the AK Lodge. It's not financially reasonable to run a monorail to every hotel but to have area stations is logical.

I totally agree with the catwalk idea. The problem is (and it's not insurmountable) that those municipal monorails are strictly utility. Disney has to mix it's usage and add in the "show" concept. That makes the addition of those walks less attractive and a lot more expensive to build and, in this case, rebuild. Still they can buy a number of buses for the cost of one mile of monorail track. Economically, it is strictly overhead, municipal units are profit centers. It is hard to imagine that adding more Monorails to the system would be able to increase the number of paying guests. At least more then they currently have.

 

[Timon]

The catwalks are a relatively new concept but could use a Disney artistic touch in execution, that's for sure. Placing it between the beams is clever and hides the crude structure. It's when the beams split that the real ugly is out there.

That there have ONLY been 24 trains since '71 (I'm not getting into percentages of rebuilds and such silliness)
Electric, non polluting averaging 157,000 passengers a day. I'd love to know how many buses Disney bought and sold since '71. Wish I could get the cost per passenger/mile for comparison over the last 40 years. I would think in the long haul Monorails would win.

I don't believe more trains can or should be added to the existing track. Normally with all forms of trains you would or should add another car for 7 car trains which adds 60 more passengers or 420 per train times 4 trains just on the Express loop for 1680. Of course some stations would need changes. Personally this would be waste and I'd just build two more Ferry boats since there are now 4 docks. This would give Disney 5 Ferry Boats, one could be in maintenance or backup. This gets to my point about balance.

I'd recommend adding a new East-West line to balance the new parts of the property with transportation alternatives. Monorails, Buses and Boats. LBV has a really neat network of Water Taxis which could be expanded to include Typhoon Lagoon. Always liked the EPCOT area boats they're air conditioned! Although they seem to need more boats.

There will always be a need for buses for remote areas and interconnecting various areas. I'm concerned about Disney Springs when it is finished and if it's popular we could see the gridlock of the Pleasure Island heydays. One bus or a hundred if it's stuck in traffic it's no working.

 

[Nextinline]

How realistic has a monorail expansion ever been at WDW? Have reliable sources ever said Disney gave it consideration? I don't want to create a new thread for this question, so I'm hoping someone reading here can inform me.

 

[Blackburn23]

Circle of Life?

 

[nace888]

Monorails are grade separated so generally no one, car or bus hits a monorail. Technology can make things even safer with active train tracking so the dispatcher knows exactly where every train is. Adding an catwalk between the tracks is not difficult, most new mass transit monorails have these. So you can just walk to safety.

I can see why they'd be viewed as quite atrocious though, I'm not sure I'd wanna ride down the beam and see a metal walkway beside me the whole way... It's that show factor... You had also asked me why I didn't want to modernize, in which I said I did, and I'd like to elaborate a bit more... I want to see an update! I just don't want to see the Disney Magic go poof as it's starting to already. The looks, I'm hoping stay the same, or more advanced, but as far as end to end coupled trains, the stuff like that, I'm not sure I'd wanna see it... Believe it or not, I've started designing a Mark VIII, with a more modern feel of the Mark VI, and I'm hoping that's the route Disney goes...

The catwalks are a relatively new concept but could use a Disney artistic touch in execution, that's for sure. Placing it between the beams is clever and hides the crude structure. It's when the beams split that the real ugly is out there.

I don't believe more trains can or should be added to the existing track. Normally with all forms of trains you would or should add another car for 7 car trains which adds 60 more passengers or 420 per train times 4 trains just on the Express loop for 1680. Of course some stations would need changes. Personally this would be waste and I'd just build two more Ferry boats since there are now 4 docks. This would give Disney 5 Ferry Boats, one could be in maintenance or backup. This gets to my point about balance.

I'd recommend adding a new East-West line to balance the new parts of the property with transportation alternatives. Monorails, Buses and Boats. LBV has a really neat network of Water Taxis which could be expanded to include Typhoon Lagoon. Always liked the EPCOT area boats they're air conditioned! Although they seem to need more boats.

The ugly is there alright... As for adding a car, while practical, I'm not sure if it's even financially possible, as you're adding 12 more cars, then 12 new *7 Car Trains* as well as extending each station by 30 feet, MAYBE minus the Contemporary, and then the need to expand the shop by at least 40 feet, and might as well add 2 beams in as it is during the old to new transition... XD While nice, and while I'd be ALL for it, I'm not sure Disney would be...

Circle of Life?

Yeahhh... Disney would pull a "Just like the Lion King, all things must come to an end. We greatly apologize that you and your child has seen this, and would like for you to return in the near future. Thank you for sharing your experience with us.." Somethin like that.. :S

 

[Monorail_Red]

The monorails are quite foolproof too, I think. With MAPO in place and whatnot, the only issue is the every so often train breakdown simply from old age. I've never seen a car NOT break down at least once. Those trains have (IIRC) 4 motors driving the train, plus 12 beam top tires, and roughly 48+/- guide/stabilizing tires. There's anything on one of these trains that could act up from time to time. They're near 30 years old if I remember! @peachykeen and @Monorail_Red wanna elaborate?

Sorry, just seeing the tag now. The answer to your question is yes and no. If the trains were that fool proof, they can just stick anybody in the cab and have them drive. The training is extensive for a reason...hard to explain. If you were to ever undergo drive training, you'll understand why. MAPO is only a secondary means of clearance procedures. Normally, you strictly use visuals to spot the trains on the system (which is where the "Normal-Visual" radio jargon derives from). Obviously you cannot see around every corner...which is where speed limitations come into play based how far you can see down the beam way. Basically it's whatever the speed limit is in that area. But like anything mechanical breakdowns are inevitable, but proper maintenance will certainly reduce the amount of breakdowns. There is something to be said about the Mark VI trains, with all the extra moving parts compared to a car, the trains get a ton more use mileage wise. A normal day running Epcot is typically a 300 mile day for a train. Hope this answers your question.

 

[nace888]

Sorry, just seeing the tag now. The answer to your question is yes and no. If the trains were that fool proof, they can just stick anybody in the cab and have them drive. The training is extensive for a reason...hard to explain. If you were to ever undergo drive training, you'll understand why. MAPO is only a secondary means of clearance procedures. Normally, you strictly use visuals to spot the trains on the system (which is where the "Normal-Visual" radio jargon derives from). Obviously you cannot see around every corner...which is where speed limitations come into play based how far you can see down the beam way. Basically it's whatever the speed limit is in that area. But like anything mechanical breakdowns are inevitable, but proper maintenance will certainly reduce the amount of breakdowns. There is something to be said about the Mark VI trains, with all the extra moving parts compared to a car, the trains get a ton more use mileage wise. A normal day running Epcot is typically a 300 mile day for a train. Hope this answers your question.

Well I know, and thank you for answering! My question though, was the amount of safety these trains really have, if that makes sense... while I know MAPO and radio orders are at the base of the safety, I know that driver visuals play a large part... I'll have to elaborate on what I meant more in a minute, as I forgot what I said and to who, lol.

Edit: I believe the conversation was regarding the safety overall, and what were to happen, how it happens, etc...

With that being said, while I have SOME doubts (such as Gold straddling the switchbeam) for something to happen, things essentially get solved pretty quickly I think.

If absolutely needed, trains could do a train to train transfer (which I believe has been trained and practiced) and that's able to be done anywhere with the exceptions of certain station spaces, and the loop areas on Epcot.

When I refer to station spaces, I mean when it gets to like:
| | ]
| | ] this area where the trains are not side by side...
| | ]
| /
| |

Please forgive me, I've rambled and forgotten why, LOL!

 

[PeterAlt]

Have you seen the news here that WDW's transportation director is leaving (or has already left) to take on the role of DLP President?

Maybe his replacement will push for monorail expansion/upgrade/better maintenance...

One can hope...

Help us Transportation Director replacement person, you're our only hope!

 

[PeterAlt]

Here's a risky idea (but a good one)...

If American Maglev Technologies can successfully prove their technology in a commercial system, maybe Disney should just outright buy the company. Once the company is acquired it would fill the function once served by WED Transportation Systems (the division sold to Bombardier). The company would be internally contracted to upgrade the WDW monorail system with its maglev technology and expanded. The expanded system would be connected to the system AMT plans on building outside WDW in the metropolitan Orlando area. Also, as a Disney subsidiary, new funds can be injected for R&D towards next generation systems, new compatible train models, and related new technologies. The company can continue to contract for new system builds so that it's not such a financial burden on Disney. Besides, with the backing of Disney, it should be better able to find new customers and close deals on new system builds. What better way to sell the system than to have one fully working at WDW and the Greater Metropolitan Orlando area to demonstrate!

 

[nace888]

Here's a risky idea (but a good one)...

If American Maglev Technologies can successfully prove their technology in a commercial system, maybe Disney should just outright buy the company. Once the company is acquired it would fill the function once served by WED Transportation Systems (the division sold to Bombardier). The company would be internally contracted to upgrade the WDW monorail system with its maglev technology and expanded. The expanded system would be connected to the system AMT plans on building outside WDW in the metropolitan Orlando area. Also, as a Disney subsidiary, new funds can be injected for R&D towards next generation systems, new compatible train models, and related new technologies. The company can continue to contract for new system builds so that it's not such a financial burden on Disney. Besides, with the backing of Disney, it should be better able to find new customers and close deals on new system builds. What better way to sell the system than to have one fully working at WDW and the Greater Metropolitan Orlando area to demonstrate!

To replace the monorail with a maglev (to me) seems like much more work... while I'd imagine an expansion be done in the process of replacement, it makes me wonder if it's wise... that being said, I think Disney should consider staying with the Monorail technology. Not only is it Iconic, but (unless I'm looking at it wrong) it seems like more work to integrate more stuff... though I'm with you, a light rail would be cool...

 

[PeterAlt]

To replace the monorail with a maglev (to me) seems like much more work... while I'd imagine an expansion be done in the process of replacement, it makes me wonder if it's wise... that being said, I think Disney should consider staying with the Monorail technology. Not only is it Iconic, but (unless I'm looking at it wrong) it seems like more work to integrate more stuff... though I'm with you, a light rail would be cool...

AMT's technology is monorail. An upgrade would add magnets to the current rail, utilizing the current beams and guideway infrastructure.

Better yet, maybe Disney should buy this company (or both)...

http://www.govtech.com/transportation/GT-Reimagining-Railroads.html

 

[nace888]

O_O

There's no telling what they could do!! I am curious though, what does this mean??
" It was determined after delivery of Mark VII Monorail Red that platform clearance was too tight for the new, elongated end-compartments, so Monorail Blue was modified at the manufacturer and entered service before Red."
and how could this affect WDW should something similar happen??

 

[s8film40]

O_O

There's no telling what they could do!! I am curious though, what does this mean??
" It was determined after delivery of Mark VII Monorail Red that platform clearance was too tight for the new, elongated end-compartments, so Monorail Blue was modified at the manufacturer and entered service before Red."
and how could this affect WDW should something similar happen??

What that means is they made a design and engineering mistake. Meaning when the train turned out of the station it scraped the platform so the trains had to be adjusted to fit. It's similar to the Mark VI trains, they had to raise the platforms and widen the Contemporary doors. However with the Mark VI's they new about the clearance issues and planned accordingly.

 

[nace888]

What that means is they made a design and engineering mistake. Meaning when the train turned out of the station it scraped the platform so the trains had to be adjusted to fit. It's similar to the Mark VI trains, they had to raise the platforms and widen the Contemporary doors. However with the Mark VI's they new about the clearance issues and planned accordingly.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh... Well, any new trains wouldn't have that issue at WDW, would it?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Have you seen the news here that WDW's transportation director is leaving (or has already left) to take on the role of DLP President?

Maybe his replacement will push for monorail expansion/upgrade/better maintenance...

One can hope...

Help us Transportation Director replacement person, you're our only hope!

The head of Transportation who had actual transit system experience already got pushed out of the job.

AMT's technology is monorail. An upgrade would add magnets to the current rail, utilizing the current beams and guideway infrastructure.

Better yet, maybe Disney should buy this company (or both)...

http://www.govtech.com/transportation/GT-Reimagining-Railroads.html

The AMT test track doesn't look like something that could just be added to the existing beams. They'd all have to be torn down and replaced. They're obsession with low speed, short distance is also bizarre since that is not the range of where friction is an issue.

 

[PeterAlt]

The head of Transportation would had actual transit system experience already got pushed out of the job.


The AMT test track doesn't look like something that could just be added to the existing beams. They'd all have to be torn down and replaced. They're obsession with low speed, short distance is also bizarre since that is not the range of where friction is an issue.

Re-word your first sentence. I have no clue what you were trying to say.

As for AMT, I do understand their obsession. Frictionless local travel means that tires are not necessary. Removing tires from the equation translates to less maintenance cost for operations and increased safety (i.e. no chance of blow-outs) as tires would not wear out and need replacing and all associated costs involved such as alignments and even break pads. Plus, it's a smoother and quieter ride.

It's like upgrading from magnet tape or record to digital medium stored in the cloud (or USB drive)!

 

[s8film40]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh... Well, any new trains wouldn't have that issue at WDW, would it?

It's not really a location specific issue it a person specific issue. If at some point in the future WDW gets new trains there is always a possibility the person designing them will make a mistake and design them too big for some clearances.

 

[nace888]

It's not really a location specific issue it a person specific issue. If at some point in the future WDW gets new trains there is always a possibility the person designing them will make a mistake and design them too big for some clearances.

I'm designing one, and my intention is that they'll be the same size... the noses may make the train a little bit shorter, but not by more than 6-8 inches... the height would be the same, length same, the interior would be different... you can look at my "Mark VIII Monorail Concepts" topic to see if you'd like...

 

[s8film40]

I'm designing one, and my intention is that they'll be the same size... the noses may make the train a little bit shorter, but not by more than 6-8 inches... the height would be the same, length same, the interior would be different... you can look at my "Mark VIII Monorail Concepts" topic to see if you'd like...

I'll check it out, but it sounds like your talking about just the aesthetic design of the monorail. If a monorail were actually being produced, at some point an engineer or likely an engineering firm would actually work out all the measurements produce plans etc. this is where the mistake happened with the Mark VII

 

[nace888]

I'll check it out, but it sounds like your talking about just the aesthetic design of the monorail. If a monorail were actually being produced, at some point an engineer or likely an engineering firm would actually work out all the measurements produce plans etc. this is where the mistake happened with the Mark VII

Ohhhhh. Mine is mostly aesthetics, but the intention was to keep stuff roughly the same size. I do look forward to your input though, should you have any!